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	<title>Comments on: Protesting</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4155</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4155</guid>
		<description>Belizean on Sep 25th, 2005 at 12:42 pm&quot;

&quot;If we caricature the political spectrum as equality-emphasizing on the left side and liberty-emphasizing on the right, Galloway is classic case of an extreme leftist. &quot;

IMHO, this goes beyond caricature; the past few years have clearly demonstrated that the right-hand 50% of US voters, at the least, are very happy giving up freedoms.  They don&#039;t even ask for good performance, in return.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Belizean on Sep 25th, 2005 at 12:42 pm&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;If we caricature the political spectrum as equality-emphasizing on the left side and liberty-emphasizing on the right, Galloway is classic case of an extreme leftist. &#8221;</p>
<p>IMHO, this goes beyond caricature; the past few years have clearly demonstrated that the right-hand 50% of US voters, at the least, are very happy giving up freedoms.  They don&#8217;t even ask for good performance, in return.</p>
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		<title>By: Count Iblis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4154</link>
		<dc:creator>Count Iblis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4154</guid>
		<description>Belizean wrote:

&#039;&#039;2) You can&#039;t impose democracy in a region that has no history of it.
This means that the U.S. accomplished the impossible in setting up democratic Japan.&#039;&#039;


The reason why the US can&#039;t impose a democracic system in Iraq is because not enough people are willing to cooperate with the new system. Having a democratic history would have helped helps, but it&#039;s not a necessary condition.


What makes a democracy function is not really the fact that the majority decides, rather that decisions taken by the majority are almost unanimously accepted. To derail a democracy it is more than enough if 1% of the population are willing to use violence to get their way. In Iraq there are tens of thousands of insurgents who are supported by many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. The US has chosen to fight them. This will do little to get closer to the unanimous support you need in a democracy.


According to a recent poll, about 50% of the Iraqis think that attacks on US soldiers are lawful. Iraqis are thus not going to cooperate sufficiently with the US military or the Iraqi government to get rid of the insurgents. And as long as the insurgency is going on, you&#039;ll have terrorists; if you want to make a bomb to blow up civilians, you should go to Al Anbar, because there you can make bombs without your neighbors asking questions.

So, perhaps one can say that bringing democracy to a country using the military doesn&#039;t work if the military needs to use a lot of force after installing the new government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Belizean wrote:</p>
<p>&#8221;2) You can&#8217;t impose democracy in a region that has no history of it.<br />
This means that the U.S. accomplished the impossible in setting up democratic Japan.&#8221;</p>
<p>The reason why the US can&#8217;t impose a democracic system in Iraq is because not enough people are willing to cooperate with the new system. Having a democratic history would have helped helps, but it&#8217;s not a necessary condition.</p>
<p>What makes a democracy function is not really the fact that the majority decides, rather that decisions taken by the majority are almost unanimously accepted. To derail a democracy it is more than enough if 1% of the population are willing to use violence to get their way. In Iraq there are tens of thousands of insurgents who are supported by many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. The US has chosen to fight them. This will do little to get closer to the unanimous support you need in a democracy.</p>
<p>According to a recent poll, about 50% of the Iraqis think that attacks on US soldiers are lawful. Iraqis are thus not going to cooperate sufficiently with the US military or the Iraqi government to get rid of the insurgents. And as long as the insurgency is going on, you&#8217;ll have terrorists; if you want to make a bomb to blow up civilians, you should go to Al Anbar, because there you can make bombs without your neighbors asking questions.</p>
<p>So, perhaps one can say that bringing democracy to a country using the military doesn&#8217;t work if the military needs to use a lot of force after installing the new government.</p>
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		<title>By: Refusing To Follow The Narrative &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4153</link>
		<dc:creator>Refusing To Follow The Narrative &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4153</guid>
		<description>[...] So to learn (from a student, Tameem [thanks!]) that he was on campus was a pleasant surprise, and I thought it was rather odd that I did not notice the announcement. Surely this will be a huge event, and I should R.S.V.P. to someone, and arrive on time to make sure I get a seat. Right? Wrong. There was standing room only in a huge open air square on campus when Michael Moore came last year, and there were people standing at the back for lack of seats at the church when George Galloway came to talk (I reported on it here). Now both of these guys came with a message that I actually (largely) agree with (and yes, people will get confused and not listen to Galloway because of who he is and who we&#8217;ve been told he is&#8230;..), but this guy, Robert Fisk, is really it! This guy has had 30 years experience in the region, and is everyday on the ground in Iraq, dodging bullets to report to us what is going on. He&#8217;s interviewed all sorts of people on all sides of the political divide(s) over many year. This is the guy who there should be fighting in the aisles to get tickets and seats to hear him talk. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So to learn (from a student, Tameem [thanks!]) that he was on campus was a pleasant surprise, and I thought it was rather odd that I did not notice the announcement. Surely this will be a huge event, and I should R.S.V.P. to someone, and arrive on time to make sure I get a seat. Right? Wrong. There was standing room only in a huge open air square on campus when Michael Moore came last year, and there were people standing at the back for lack of seats at the church when George Galloway came to talk (I reported on it here). Now both of these guys came with a message that I actually (largely) agree with (and yes, people will get confused and not listen to Galloway because of who he is and who we&#8217;ve been told he is&#8230;..), but this guy, Robert Fisk, is really it! This guy has had 30 years experience in the region, and is everyday on the ground in Iraq, dodging bullets to report to us what is going on. He&#8217;s interviewed all sorts of people on all sides of the political divide(s) over many year. This is the guy who there should be fighting in the aisles to get tickets and seats to hear him talk. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: subodh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4152</link>
		<dc:creator>subodh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4152</guid>
		<description>Aside from the many other pressing issues that the labour govt has dragged its feet on, when you have a clear majority of Britons who opposed a war that their country was more or less dragged into, and when the party of the day gets voted in convincingly again, in spite of the clear and documented misleading of the British public by No. 10, its easy to get bored and complacent with an effectively two party parliamentary system.

George Galloway at the very least provided a silver lining to the results of election day, and proved that at the very least, British Democracy hasn&#039;t completely become a forgone conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aside from the many other pressing issues that the labour govt has dragged its feet on, when you have a clear majority of Britons who opposed a war that their country was more or less dragged into, and when the party of the day gets voted in convincingly again, in spite of the clear and documented misleading of the British public by No. 10, its easy to get bored and complacent with an effectively two party parliamentary system.</p>
<p>George Galloway at the very least provided a silver lining to the results of election day, and proved that at the very least, British Democracy hasn&#8217;t completely become a forgone conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4151</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4151</guid>
		<description>Clifford:

I&#039;m certainly no fan of Blair. I think that he&#039;s the most harmful PM we&#039;ve had for a long time. Mind you, I&#039;m pretty much on the conservative side, so I dislike his time in office for basically every reason going.

I am also under the impression that King &lt;em&gt;was&lt;/em&gt; a pretty high profile Blair supporter on the backbenches, certainly (at least) the most so of the MPs of constituencies where Galloway might have a chance of winning.

I don&#039;t think that Gorgeous George is renowned for his hard work on behalf of his constituents, although I may be doing him a disservice. The tabloids love to go on about the amount of time that he spends in his Iberian villa, but they love to hate him in any case. However, I&#039;m not convinced that the role of the constituency PM is generally as important as the role they can play in Westminster on the wider scale; the UK legislative system doesn&#039;t allow for the extraordinary porking-up of bills that can happen in the US system (which does have the merit of connecting local issues to national ones, even if it&#039;s an expensive way to do it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m certainly no fan of Blair. I think that he&#8217;s the most harmful PM we&#8217;ve had for a long time. Mind you, I&#8217;m pretty much on the conservative side, so I dislike his time in office for basically every reason going.</p>
<p>I am also under the impression that King <em>was</em> a pretty high profile Blair supporter on the backbenches, certainly (at least) the most so of the MPs of constituencies where Galloway might have a chance of winning.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that Gorgeous George is renowned for his hard work on behalf of his constituents, although I may be doing him a disservice. The tabloids love to go on about the amount of time that he spends in his Iberian villa, but they love to hate him in any case. However, I&#8217;m not convinced that the role of the constituency PM is generally as important as the role they can play in Westminster on the wider scale; the UK legislative system doesn&#8217;t allow for the extraordinary porking-up of bills that can happen in the US system (which does have the merit of connecting local issues to national ones, even if it&#8217;s an expensive way to do it).</p>
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		<title>By: boreds</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4150</link>
		<dc:creator>boreds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4150</guid>
		<description>Certainly a valid use of votes, and a painful result for Blair---agreed. I just mean that it might also become (moderately) painful for the constituents, too. I guess we&#039;ll have to see if George devotes a lot of time to his constituency work.

Also, I don&#039;t think Oona King was picked out as a particularly egregious supporter of the war, more that she represented an appropriate constituency, but maybe you know more than me. (Slavish seems a bit too strong, but I guess she did support the war from the backbenches). I think perhaps her losing her seat to Galloway is more unfortunate than unfair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly a valid use of votes, and a painful result for Blair&#8212;agreed. I just mean that it might also become (moderately) painful for the constituents, too. I guess we&#8217;ll have to see if George devotes a lot of time to his constituency work.</p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t think Oona King was picked out as a particularly egregious supporter of the war, more that she represented an appropriate constituency, but maybe you know more than me. (Slavish seems a bit too strong, but I guess she did support the war from the backbenches). I think perhaps her losing her seat to Galloway is more unfortunate than unfair.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4149</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:06:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4149</guid>
		<description>Adam,

Just to remind you: Blair is a seedy and devious trickster too.

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam,</p>
<p>Just to remind you: Blair is a seedy and devious trickster too.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4148</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4148</guid>
		<description>Well, to be fair, the constituents of Bethnal Green and Bow, many of whom are anti-war and/or moslem, appeared to feel that Oona King&#039;s slavish loyalty to Blair&#039;s policy on Iraq and alliance with the Bush administration on it meant that she hadn&#039;t, in fact, served them very well. Galloway picked a moslem area with a Blair loyalist MP as a place where he could win and also where toppling the sitting MP could be justified from their pro-war stance and fair enough. It was close, but he did win, and the voters who voted for Galloway had every right to make their point that the issues that Galloway was running on were in fact the most important issues to them.

I think he&#039;s a seedy and devious trickster to some extent, but I don&#039;t think that he was elected so much for admiration of his ethics so much as his stance against Blair&#039;s Iraq policy and that is a pretty justifiable use of one&#039;s vote, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, to be fair, the constituents of Bethnal Green and Bow, many of whom are anti-war and/or moslem, appeared to feel that Oona King&#8217;s slavish loyalty to Blair&#8217;s policy on Iraq and alliance with the Bush administration on it meant that she hadn&#8217;t, in fact, served them very well. Galloway picked a moslem area with a Blair loyalist MP as a place where he could win and also where toppling the sitting MP could be justified from their pro-war stance and fair enough. It was close, but he did win, and the voters who voted for Galloway had every right to make their point that the issues that Galloway was running on were in fact the most important issues to them.</p>
<p>I think he&#8217;s a seedy and devious trickster to some extent, but I don&#8217;t think that he was elected so much for admiration of his ethics so much as his stance against Blair&#8217;s Iraq policy and that is a pretty justifiable use of one&#8217;s vote, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: boreds</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4147</link>
		<dc:creator>boreds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4147</guid>
		<description>I doubt George will serve the constituents of Bethnal Green and Bow as well as Oona King would have done....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt George will serve the constituents of Bethnal Green and Bow as well as Oona King would have done&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Fyodor Uckoff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/comment-page-1/#comment-4146</link>
		<dc:creator>Fyodor Uckoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 01:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/09/25/protesting/#comment-4146</guid>
		<description>cvj said: &quot;But it is always interesting to meet people more &quot;overtly&quot; left-wing than oneself though...I don&#039;t know why.&quot;

It&#039;s kind of like visiting the primate section of the zoo. Fascinating yet disturbing. Note that there, too, the amount of noise generated is inversely related to the intelligence of the specimen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cvj said: &#8220;But it is always interesting to meet people more &#8220;overtly&#8221; left-wing than oneself though&#8230;I don&#8217;t know why.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s kind of like visiting the primate section of the zoo. Fascinating yet disturbing. Note that there, too, the amount of noise generated is inversely related to the intelligence of the specimen.</p>
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