I was in Starbucks, minding my own business, earnestly stirring sugar into my latte. When I began the stirring process, I was alone at the condiment counter and was not aware of anyone joining me in the interim. Suddenly a voice boomed, “Can you pass the chocolate when you get a chance?” I grabbed the chocolate and handed it to the guy without thinking, assuming the chocolate incident was now finished. But the guy kept talking, “I find it’s better if I add the chocolate *now*.” That forced me to look at him – pouring his coffee beverage from one cup into another, stopping halfway to add the chocolate. I felt inclined to reply, “that makes sense, the chocolate will mix better that way.”
The guy stopped dead in his tracks, mid-pour, looked at me and said “you’re a scientist.” He then looked me over *very* carefully, seemed to notice I was female, and backed off slightly, “or an engineer.” (I mean backed off in the sense that female engineers are not so uncommon in Silicon Valley)
I looked straight at him: “Is it that obvious?”
He replied, “Yes. You’re a scientist/engineer, right?”
“I’m a theoretical physicist, working at SLAC. *HOW* did you know?”
“Nobody else would have said that (about the chocolate) that way. Only a scientist would talk like that.”
We then chatted for a bit about SLAC and some piece of equipment a friend of his bought at auction there (we have auctions???), and then I left.
Frankly, I don’t get it. It’s not like I have `Caution: Physicist’ tattoed on my forehead! I mean, we spend the better part of our time on this blog convincing you, the public, that us scientists are normal people. **How** did he know???
October 12th, 2005 at 2:06 am
I mean, we spend the better part of our time on this blog convincing you, the public, that us scientists are normal people.
No, you spend it TRYING to convince us. It never actually works.
October 12th, 2005 at 2:13 am
OK, Human. Touché.
October 12th, 2005 at 2:18 am
I’m only kidding, just to be clear. I love all you guys.
Besides, when you do deviate from “normal,” it’s because you’re better than us, not worse.
October 12th, 2005 at 3:35 am
It’s the way you express your observations. As in the book, Stranger in a strange land, the is a person known as a true witness, and the question ask of what color a house on the hill is, “It’s white, on this side.” not giving an assumption to the possibility that the whole house might be white. Only what is observable, and verifiable at that moment, from that point of view.
When you observed that coffee mixing, you noted the event, then placed it in context with the action, mixing. No spurious commentary like, ‘it might spill’, or ‘your making a mess’. Concise, observation.
I married my wife, a Science school teacher, for just such a reason.
October 12th, 2005 at 6:38 am
A friend of mine, a graduate student at the time, was asked to pick up a visiting astronomer at the airport in Austin. He had never met this person and was worried he would miss him when 200+ people got off the plane. His wife, a lawyer, sent him to the coffee shop to wait and unerringly picked out the astronomer.
She never did explain how she did it. She said it would be too offensive.
October 12th, 2005 at 7:23 am
Joanne, are you sure it wasn’t the white lab coat, the pocket protector and the conspicuous piece of tape holding your glasses together that gave you away?
Branedy, you smooth talker you! I hope that wasn’t the line you used to propose.:)
October 12th, 2005 at 7:40 am
Nice story. How did he know? First of all, it’s almost clear visually. Second of all, it’s rather clear from your considerations about the causal subtleties of the mixing of the cholocate. Your choice of words was similar like if you decided that the Cabibbo mixing angle approached 45 degrees. Are you ashamed to be an identifiable scientist, anyway?
October 12th, 2005 at 7:45 am
To quote Sarek, Spocks father on why he married Amanda (a human),
“It seem like the logical thing to do!”
October 12th, 2005 at 8:51 am
Two questions:
(1) Did you find out what he did for a living? Sometimes we can sniff each other out of a crowd. Like I can spot the English people coming out of international arrivals… or on the street in LA.
(2) What were you wearing….? you might well have been wearing one of the standard scientist uniforms: Blue shirt + khakis, for example for guys (everybody, check now…)
-cvj
October 12th, 2005 at 9:19 am
you might well have been wearing one of the standard scientist uniforms: Blue shirt + khakis, for example for guys (everybody, check now…)
It is, of course, complete coincidence that I happen to be wearing a blue golf shirt and khaki pants today.
Still, if you’d like to recommend some lottery numbers…
(“4, 8, 15, 16,…”)
October 12th, 2005 at 9:47 am
I would guess that it is from the *way* you phrased your comments (after a fraction of a second of considered thought). But then again, how come he didn’t ask whether you were a lawyer or a Philosophy prof?
Once I happened to be the only customer at a clothing store at the time. The saleswoman got chatting with me and after a few minutes of general pleasantries she suddenly blurted out “You are good at Math, aren’t you?”. I was completely taken aback. She said it in a very definitive way and there was absolutely nothing in our conversation upto that point indicating my line of work. For the record, I do not wear glasses and have been mistaken on campus for someone in the Business, English or Econ programs.
October 12th, 2005 at 9:54 am
Dammit, I should’ve picked the red shirt this morning…
Lubos, it is true that in the beginning I was trying to hide that I am not an American, but by now I am quite comfortable in social situations, despite the fact that there is a “Caution: German Physicist” tattoo on my forehead, apparently. Never have I tried to hide that I am a scientist, though.
October 12th, 2005 at 10:14 am
I’ve also been asked “are you in Engineering?” when writing out checks at a store. My script is small, neat and uniform, which fits the streotype for someone in a Mathematical discipline.
October 12th, 2005 at 10:47 am
Oh Cmon,
The dude is a stalker. He knew who you were before he even approached. Maybe he reads your blog or was a former student or something.
The whole “I find its better if I add the chocolate now” is so cliche these days lol
October 12th, 2005 at 10:47 am
This would make it obvious that I am one of the different ones…is it really more effiecient to stir in chocolate this way? I actually remember a colloquium on similar issues, not sure the answer is obvious but it is probably well-studied, and I find myself wondering now…
Blue outfit as Clifford described was my school uniform for 12 years, and then I spent 3 years wearing olive-green, so these two are off for me, but otherwise I am in complete agreement with Clifford. However, guys generally tend to wear uniform- what is the probability that hanger-pants (if that is what they are called) will be accompanied by a baseball cap? in Texas it is close to 100%.
October 12th, 2005 at 10:55 am
both my parents are mathematical physicists. i can spot mathematical physicists a mile off nine times out of ten. on the occasions that i miss, it’s because i’ve found an astrophysicist or a pure mathematician.
the clothing is a big part of it, but there’s something else to. people in math or heavily mathematical disciplines have a tendency to immediately spot logical consequence or patterns (hence coffee incident) or to quantify things (rather than qualify them).
–Quibbler
October 12th, 2005 at 10:55 am
just from that comment, i might’ve thought you were a candy-maker or chef of some kind.
October 12th, 2005 at 11:03 am
Hi Bjorn,
interesting.
I personally never tried to hide I was not an American; in the case of my accent, it would be pretty hopeless anyway. Concerning the being a scientist – there is nothing to be ashamed about! Being a scientist is a very sexy thing – for both genders – and those who don’t know it have a perverse taste.
Best
Lubos
October 12th, 2005 at 11:53 am
Don’t you guys remember the story from “Surely You’re Joking” where Feynman can’t remember whether he needs to go to Raleigh or Chapel Hill for the gravity conference, so he tries to describe the attendees to the taxi dispatcher?
Feynman – “They would have their heads kind of in the air, and they would be talking to each other, not paying attention to where they were going, saying things to each other, like ‘G-mu-nu. G-mu-nu.’ ”
Dispatcher – “Ah, yes. You mean Chapel Hill!”
October 12th, 2005 at 12:05 pm
Clifford, I was already running late for a meeting, so I did not engage the guy in any extra conversation. I did, however get the impression that he was technically oriented. I came to that conclusion from the fact that he talked about auctions at SLAC and knew what the equipment up for bid was used for. He also asked if the new accelerator project was finished yet (of course, that’s a standard question, but one at least has to know the word accelerator!).
Mark, I forgot my white coat at home that day.
For the record, I was wearing jeans, clogs, a light blue shirt that has some mod reflecting dots on it, dangling earrings and sunglasses around my neck on a sports-type string. (OK, perhaps the string on the sunglasses is a touch nerdy, but I haven;t lost them since I started using the string.)
October 12th, 2005 at 12:16 pm
OK, perhaps the string on the sunglasses is a touch nerdy, but I haven’t lost them since I started using the string.
And you wonder how he knew you were a scientist?
October 12th, 2005 at 12:17 pm
I should add that I don’t mind being spotted as a scientist, in fact it makes me rather pleased (but still curious as to why/how). I find it quite encouraging that strangers can look at a woman and assume she is a scientist. That means science is an accepted occupation for a woman – that sounds like progress to me!
October 12th, 2005 at 12:23 pm
Sean, the string on the sunglasses is leftover from a white-water rafting trip, which is *way* more cool than just having a string. Lots of sports nerds here in CA wear those strings. (I have to learn how to insert those smiley faces, but imagine one here with its tongue sticking out at Sean…all in fun, of course!)
October 12th, 2005 at 12:25 pm
It’s not the string, it’s the rationalization!
October 12th, 2005 at 12:31 pm
Imagine a smiley face with two, maybe even three, tongues sticking out at Sean! (Note the intelligent discourse on this blog.)
Now I’ll be too embarrassed to keep the string….
October 12th, 2005 at 1:03 pm
Funny, but a similar thing happened to me.
I’m involved in student representation at my university. It’s happened that someone of the “softer” sciences approached me and said “What do you study? Science or engineering, isn’t it ?”
When asked how they new, I once got the reply “Wel, you look for paterns and explanations everywhere.”
So I guess this is an occupational hazzard. It’s true that we ALWAYS look for reasons and patterns, when most “normal” people wouldn’t give something a second thought.
October 12th, 2005 at 1:07 pm
Hmm. Your comment about mixing the chocolate is something I can imagine myself saying in that situation, but I’m not a scientist.
Hanging around in Sili Valley I often find that people assume that I’m involved in the tech industry — it’s pretty much the default assumption, which it would not be even as nearby as San Francisco or Oakland.
October 12th, 2005 at 1:27 pm
It’s not the string, it’s the rationalization!
I did a doubletake, before I realized Sean was not trying to be punny. I thought he was using some string theory jargon. Or was he?
October 12th, 2005 at 1:29 pm
JoAnne wrote:
“Now I’ll be too embarrassed to keep the string”
I wish more theoreticians would say that.
October 12th, 2005 at 1:37 pm
JoAnne wrote:
“I find it quite encouraging that strangers can look at a woman and assume she is a scientist. That means science is an accepted occupation for a woman – that sounds like progress to me!”
Yes. But remember the neighbourhod you were in. Very high density of scientists. But yes, it is a good thing.
I wish I could say the same for me, and people who look like me. I am -even in a group of scientists all dressed like me- never assumed to be a scientist, sometiems even by other scientists. So there is nothing I can say to a random person pouring chocolate or whatever that will make them guess I’m a scientist. People are really just too firmly bound by certain racial stereotypes stuck in their minds to make the leap, even given the evidence. I think this is why there’s only a handful of people of african descent doing physics at any advanced level, and the numbers are perilously low across the board in science in general. We’re not supposed to be able to do this sort of thing in some people’s minds (e.g. potential colleagues and employers) and so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
In the past, as a postdoc in certain esteemed places I’ve even been assumed to be the janitor, since there’d be no other reason for someone of my colour to be in the building at all at that time of day. Several times I’ve gone soemwhere to give a talk and am standing at the lectern but have been assumed to be the tech guy (by clearly more generous people than usual) come to help set up the speaker’s computer. The first time I gave a talk at Berkeley many years ago (as a postdoc) one of the professors came up to me -standing at the front of the room ready to talk- and asked if I knew if the speaker had arrived yet.
This does not happen so much now, but I don’t think it is because of progress. It is primarily because people know who I am and others can look at my picture on the web before I show up somewhere.
Most times I am assumed to be a student if I am manifestly doing something technical: If people see me computing or reading something complicated looking on the bus or train, they assume that I’m doing homework….
When I do tell people “out there in the real world” that I’m not only a scientist, but I hold a professorship in a real university and am paid to do this, they express way too much shock at the news for my liking. It’s actually depressing. And this includes shock from people who share my african heritage, which is even more depressing; they are often the people who beleive the stereotypes most…so they never tell their kids that they can be scientists either…..
And those are just the funny stories. Sad, but all true.
-cvj
October 12th, 2005 at 2:05 pm
Clifford,
Does anyone spot you as a musician?
October 12th, 2005 at 2:08 pm
Clifford, things will change with time. I am convinced of that. It is undeniably taking longer for scientists of color than of gender. But we will all get there.
For what it’s worth, I can’t begin to count the number of times I’ve been mistaken for a secretary. It still happens when people visit SLAC and see me in the hall. I am usually not so polite when this happens. An instance that sticks out in my mind was during a conference with about 200 attendees – it was coffee break and I was standing with a group of colleagues discussing a talk we had all seen. Some guy came up to me, handed me an empty coffee pot, and said the coffee needed to be refilled. I was not so polite, and I am sure that guy will never ask anybody, anywhere, at anytime, to refill coffee again.
And, when people watch me work on airplanes etc, they always, and I mean always, ask me what I am studying and what college I go to. I get a perverse satisfaction of giving them my biggest smile and saying I’m a tenured professor of theoretical physics at Stanford. I enjoy watching the resulting expression on their face. They usually say something to the effect of `Wow, you don’t look like it.’
So, being pegged as a scientist while standing in a coffee shop was a very pleasant surprise! And perhaps a small sign, that things might be changing.
October 12th, 2005 at 2:41 pm
I would take it to mean you look very youthful, and in general, isn’t that a compliment?
October 12th, 2005 at 3:01 pm
I agree with Arun: you should take it as a complement that they think you are so young…been carded lately?
October 12th, 2005 at 3:05 pm
Clifford,
You are a pioneer. Don’t underestimate the impact you are having in dismantling those racial stereotypes.
October 12th, 2005 at 3:35 pm
That also happens to me a lot (being asked about homework), for examples in airplanes. I attribute that to the effect discussed here many times- actual scientists never have the look they are supposed to have (character 7 in the Holywood handbook), all the defining symbols (lab coats, tweed jackets or whatever) are missing. Can’t blame people for getting confused.
Clifford’s other experiences are a different story, never had anything remotely similar to these, definitely it is depressing.
October 12th, 2005 at 3:39 pm
My wife can spot an astronomer from a kilometer away. It’s uncanny, actually. We came up with a name for it: “nerdar”.
-Phil
October 12th, 2005 at 4:10 pm
Phil,
I’m curious as to how your wife’s nerdar (cute word!!) can differentiate between an Astronomer from someone in another technical field. An emeritus Math prof, whose son and daughter-in-law are also Math profs, told me that his wife can pick out Mathematicians from any crowd of people.
Clifford,
I’ve heard stories similar to yours from African-Americans and Hispanics in the Humanities. Hopefully the current crop of kids will grow up holding less stereotypical views of scientists (and academics in general).
October 12th, 2005 at 4:12 pm
One of my favourite stories is: a friend of mine was being chatted up by a cool dude at a music concert. He eventually got onto the question “So what do you do?” and was so scared by the reply that he (literally) ran away.
October 12th, 2005 at 4:21 pm
Kea,
I’ve had a similar experience on campus. It was at the beginning of the semester with the usual chaos and last-minute class changes. I arrived at a certain classroom and asked a student standing outside whether he was there for Physics 1210. When he heard the word “Physics” he got terribly agitated and started shaking and stuttered “n-n-no,no, I’m not in Physics”.
October 12th, 2005 at 4:36 pm
It felt like such a stigma to be reading Natural Sciences at Cambridge University (“NatSci” is the degree programme that Cambridge is arguably most famous for, allowing the student to take a combination of sciences at once) that, when asked by other undergraduates what we were studying, you would ask them to guess and hope they said “English” or “Modern Languages” and not NatSci or (perhaps worse) CompSci. Please tell me this has changed.
October 12th, 2005 at 4:47 pm
Samantha,
So let me get this straight – studying sciences at an intellectual Mecca like Cambridge is considered a STIGMA?
Clifford,
What were your experiences as a scientist from a non-stereotypical demographic, in the UK?
October 12th, 2005 at 4:49 pm
Samantha, surely you mean most famous after mathematics! But in any case, your comment applied to us mathmos just the same.
October 12th, 2005 at 5:44 pm
Mark,
I put in “arguably” just (just!) in case a mathmo reading this took exception to this characterization. And it took precisely two comments for a mathmo to take exception! I would argue that (in late 1980s) Britain, it was more unusual to be able to continue to study several sciences at university making the NatSci tripos possibly more famous than the Maths tripos. But, in my opinion, the NatSci or Maths degrees are the premier courses that Cambridge offers.
Citrine,
Yes, it was (is?) really was a stigma of a sort (if being considered boring and anorak (plastic rain coat) -wearing is a stigma). I also find this hard to believe some 20 years later. But notice Mark also felt the same (and being a mathmo wasn’t so bad, I always thought, still anorak-wearing but generally more considered to be more eccentrically brilliant than us NatScis.)
October 12th, 2005 at 6:13 pm
Hi Guys,
All this talk of stereotypes is interesting.
You view stereotypes as a good thing (can you really spot a mathematician in a room full of people?) in some cases, and a deplorable reflection of character in others (racial and gender related assumptions).
The thing to remember here is that they’re all stereotypes for a reason – there are very few girls and no people of non-european descent in any of my graduate classes (and no, I don’t live anywhere near the US).
While the class homogeneity may be, a stereotype is not always a bad thing! Assumptions are often necessary for us to get by in life (by default I am wary of snakes, even though I have no idea if they are dangerous or not).
That is the nature of a logical argument: you make some assumptions, apply logic and reach a conclusion. The fact that the assumptions are incorrect does not mean that the logic is! I guess what i’m trying to get across is the causality here: just because someone assumes you don’t do physics does not mean they assume you are incapable; they have never met you, so lacking any other clues to your vocation fall back on previous experience (this is where stereotypes come in handy – where you generally don’t see females or non-european people in the sciences) and use this to instruct them on the best way to act in a social situation.
So, yes it sux that there are minorities in the (hard) sciences. However the fact that people make incorrect assumptions is a reflection of that truth, not that they hate minorities!
Cheers
Ps. Steven Pinker discusses this at length in “The Blank Slate”.
October 12th, 2005 at 6:30 pm
It’s dangerous being Devil’s advocate, too many mistakes and he will fry you.
Do people from India, China, Japan, Korea, etc. count as non-european people? As far as I know, there are plenty of them in the sciences.
October 12th, 2005 at 7:17 pm
bjorn, you NEVER pick the red shirt…
October 12th, 2005 at 7:27 pm
It’s dangerous being Devil’s advocate, too many mistakes and he will fry you.
lol
Do people from India, China, Japan, Korea, etc. count as non-european people? As far as I know, there are plenty of them in the sciences.
This is so unrelated to my argument it hardly warrants a reply, but: yes you are correct, asian people do science. Wow. Thanks for your help, now go stick mini post-it notes on your screen with “black” over the parts where i wrote “non-european”…and then when you’re done go look up euphemism. That should keep you busy….
It’s interesting you bring this up though, because what I originally said is most certainly true in my locale – every single asain I know, including the one I live with, studies accounting/commerce. So perhaps some stereotyping is due to geographical differences?
October 12th, 2005 at 7:30 pm
Cosmic variance crew:
In your post preview html tags like [ul] and [li] work, but they don’t appear in the comment once submitted.
October 12th, 2005 at 8:08 pm
I think it’s definitely not as bad for women as it is for people of color (since there’s only about 10 of them!), but it still ain’t good — like JoAnne, I’ve often been mistaken for a secretary or a student by various people, even when standing in front of the room with a computer.
With regard to random strangers, I used to shy away from giving the full story when people asked me what I did, but now I just say that I’m a theoretical astrophysicist flat out — and enjoy the varied reactions and shattering their assumptions If they can’t deal so much that they walk away (which *has* happened), well, that’s their problem.
When I was an undergrad *at MIT parties*, people used to ask me what school I went to and they’d guess 20 other Boston area schools before they’d guess MIT. Ugh.
That said, when on a plane to a relatively remote conference, I think I can almost always spot the physicists/astronomers in the crowd…
October 12th, 2005 at 8:13 pm
The Devil’s Advocate speaketh :
It’s interesting you bring this up though, because what I originally said is most certainly true in my locale – every single asain I know, including the one I live with, studies accounting/commerce.
Heh, this Advocate needs to go out more, or must come from a very skewed neighbourhood full of asian accountants.
October 12th, 2005 at 8:18 pm
On topic : I am almost invariably being mistaken for a student, in my year-long career as a postdoc.
Come to think of it, if I see myself in a coffee shop, I would think I am a student.
October 12th, 2005 at 8:52 pm
Eugene – and I mean this as a compliment – you do look like a student!
October 12th, 2005 at 9:23 pm
The vagaries of getting old and now retired have removed those past opportunities to be mistaken for this or that as i waited for classes of students, or attendees at conferences to take their places. Then again i pushed the envelope, so to speak, regarding how i looked, learning to be “different” from noticing (way back in the late 60′s and early 70′s) that most of my fellow graduate students chose to wear hush puppy shoes and chambray shirts w/ the requisite cotton slacks. NOt much has changed it seems–blue shirts and khaki pants eh?
I do want to mention that those “strings” used to secure one’s sunglasses to one’s body have a generic idiomatic name among the CA sports geeks–the SoCal beach lifeguard in me never dies nor fades away, even though i live in Eastern Washington not far from Canada.
October 12th, 2005 at 9:47 pm
Mark :
Thanks! I do secretly enjoy being mistaken for a student, makes the rationalization of still being young much easier!
Hey, I used the word “rationalization” and thus the circle is complete!
October 13th, 2005 at 12:49 am
Once I was at the checkout line at the grocery store and paid with a credit card, using the magnetic swipe/keypad device installed for that purpose. The cashier had to remind me to press “enter” to complete the transaction, and I hesitated for a moment because the word “YES” on the display didn’t line up with the proper button.
“It’s the green button,” she said.
“I see… It’s hard to tell because the “YES” and “NO” on the display look like they should line up with the correct buttons, but they don’t.”
The cashier nodded and said, “You work with computers, right?”
October 13th, 2005 at 1:01 am
Matt McIrvin: You’ve reminded me of a story that happened to me which is not actually terribly relevant, but I’ve never got to tell it before. I imagine it is a bit relevant since I suppose what I did would have given me away (to a blind person; see my earlier comment) as probably a scientist.
Here goes:
Closing time, December 31st 1992, McCaffrey’s supermarket, Princeton. Last thing of the year…I was buying some last minute groceries. Cold outside, last day of the year, probably tons of snow on the ground. I’m the last person in the store. I’m at the checkout. Person standing at the door to let me out before closing up. Everyone just wants to go home….
My total rings up on the cash register. Guess how much? $19.92c. ….19.92….1992! I get excited and point this out…Look! $19.92! and it’s the last day of 1992! Wow, isn’t that great?!
Puzzled look at me. Stony silence.
I leave.
(I kept the receipt for years. Have lost it now.)
-cvj
October 13th, 2005 at 1:08 am
Clifford, I fear for all the progress you have made here, convincing people that physicists are normal people, just like everybody else…
October 13th, 2005 at 1:32 am
Clifford, that was cute – I would have done exactly the same thing.
October 13th, 2005 at 1:33 am
Moshe…it was Winter, in Princeton, and I lived in the quiet, deserted (at holiday time) Marcel Breuer apartment complex down by the Institute. Everybody had gone off to their real homes for the holidays and having arrived in the country only months before I’d decided to catch up on Ameircan culture really fast by buying a tv and watching it that whole time, sitting too close to a blazing wood fire, day in, day out.
This does weird things to a person, no matter how normal they start out.
-cvj
P.S. I think I saw every episode ever of the Simpson’s, and Cheers by the end of that holiday period. It was great!
P.P.S To be honest, I’d be excited this year if the total $20.05c came up on the last day of the year during my last financial transaction at closing time. Maybe the fact that I don’t see this as abnormal is a bad sign…
October 13th, 2005 at 10:38 am
Clifford, just to set the record straight- I would have done the same thing, even under normal circumstances. But to keep appearances maybe we should stop here…
October 13th, 2005 at 11:43 am
I’ve enjoyed reading this article and comments. I might have become a scientist if I’d had the ability to understand mathematics. As it is, I enjoy following the search for a GUT when it is dumbed down for folks like me. I was told once by a physics graduate student that I think like a physicist, and I consider that to be a compliment. He offered that comment after hearing me say something to the effect that money represents the energy that one puts into the system. I’m also very skeptical by nature and have to resist the impulse to argue with people when they make illogical and indefensible statements. In conclusion: to physicists out there — you’re my heroes. Thank you for the work you do.
October 13th, 2005 at 12:21 pm
I would have noticed and commented on the coincidence of the date and the amount on the register, too. In fact, it’s one of my annoying little habits: “$15.88…Spanish Armada!” I think it’s mainly a symptom of being observent and able to make quick mental connections; or, with JoAnne’s chocolate example, of an automatic reflext to try to figure out why. Maybe this is typical of scientists, but it’s not an exclusive trait.
October 13th, 2005 at 12:50 pm
Thanks janet! That’s exactly what I think. It’s not like scientists are the only people who find numbers interesting.
Thanks,
-cvj
October 13th, 2005 at 1:10 pm
Just thought I’d throw in my 2 cents, for whatever it is worth. I think Devil’s Advocate, while perhaps not completely correct, may have a point. Keep in mind that I am speaking only from personal experience, which, having gotten my doctrate 12 years ago and being out of academia for nearly 10, may be somewhat outdated.
In my undergraduate days, although there quite a few black people in other subjects, there were none majoring in physics (though refering to the references of women in physics..there were quite a few women. In fact, my wife is a physics doctorate I consider to be a better thinker than myself). In my graduate days, we did have several black people in the Ph.D. program, but, none of them were African American. The real issue which I think needs to be addressed here, is why the apparent lack of interest in the pursuit of physics within the African American community (I submit at the outset that it has nothing to do with ability)?
But going back to the subject of the post and to Devil’s Advocate’s point: If having nothing to go on I were forced to guess somebody’s career (usually a dangerous game to begin with, since appearance is often no indication at all), as a scientist, I would use levels of probability based on sample sets with which I am familiar. First, a relatively small set of people (in an absolute sense) go into physics, so that gets a low probability to begin with. Second, my limited experiences suggest that relatively very few African Americans pursue a career in physics, so being an African American would cause me to drop that probability a little further (though I’d be happy to be wrong). Factors influencing a guess would, of course, include geographic location…being in a university town, or near a national lab, for example (raises the chances, obviously). Naturally, if the person in question started talking about Boltzmann’s constant or the Lorentz transformation…well that would simply collapse the wave function, so to speak
. Perhaps my thinking here is off..?
Now, as I said, I have been outside academia for some time, and perhaps, as I would hope, the situation for interest in physics has much improved among all communities.
cheers,
XP
October 13th, 2005 at 3:24 pm
XP, making a guess about a person’s line of work based on statistical considerations is one thing. Refusing to connect the dots in the presence of data pointing in a different way is another.
If someone sees JoAnne or Clifford conversing with Physicists at a Physics conference and assumes that they are there in a secretarial or janitorial capacity is a different set of circumstances than seeing either of them in a public arena and not guessing they are Physicists.
October 13th, 2005 at 3:56 pm
citrine, very well said.
October 13th, 2005 at 4:46 pm
Citrine,
I whole heartedly agree. I had thought I pointed to refining ones guess in the presence of actual data (note I started working with a blank slate) such as geography and my albeit glib statement concerning subject matter during conversation, but I can see how one could miss my thinking there. My fault for trying to rush through typing a comment…
However, as to what I see as the more crucial issue in my reply, my interest and hope remains that interest in physics has awoken in a more diverse crowd than it had been during my days of college.
Thanks for the response,
XP
October 13th, 2005 at 7:09 pm
My wife can spot an astronomer from a kilometer away. It’s uncanny, actually. We came up with a name for it: “nerdar”.
I think that is astounding, Phil. This proves that your wife is an astronomer.
Nerdar is good coinage.
*this whole thread is very interesting. probably the only civil place left in the blogosphere.*
October 14th, 2005 at 12:50 am
I used to work in the adult entertainment industry before starting over again in physics. My wife is still in the old line of work. Funny enough, we can still pretty much spot anyone in the biz, but now she has a pretty good nerdar as well. (Mine’s not so good.)
October 15th, 2005 at 12:12 am
This blog is supposed to show that physicists are normal people? Funny, because physicists are usually good at a lot of things.
October 15th, 2005 at 12:16 am
Oops! Excuse me! I thought you were the secretary.
So, you are saying this guy struck out with the old reliable “like hydrodynamics for chocolate” pickup line?