Tennessee Ernie Ford

You are right about the MNCs.

Both you and Belizean are correct, I believe, in your discussion of union roots as well as the current causes of union corruption.

Unions certainley started as a social, workers’ rights initiative; however, to repeat a bad adage, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Power has no political affiliations or boundries–it feeds off itself and devours the weak.

I will not write another long passage but will close with the opening lines of Tennessee Eddie Ford’s song “Sixteen Tons”:

“Some people say a man is made out of mud,
A poor man[s] made out of muscle and blood.
Muscle and blood and skin and bones,
A mind that’s weak and a back that’s strong.”

This is what the Unions feed off of.

I think we must live on different planets.

While you say that gun control laws are merely a “tactic,” the thin edge of the wedge, leading to “the ultimate goal of total confiscation,” that’s simply your opinion. You’re entitled to it, but that doesn’t mean that it has any basis in fact. How many right-wing military dictatorships have banned the posession of firearms?

“Universities currently tolerate less freedom of speech than any place in America.” ANY place? C’mon, that’s just hyperbole. How much freedom of speech do you think a worker at Wal-Mart would enjoy if she were discussing the benefits of unionization? How much freedom of speech would a Southern Baptist enjoy if he were to argue the scientific basis of Darwinism? And how “civil” do you think the ensuing discussions would be?

Your claim that expressing your political views would make your life “a living Hell” at the university where you work is probably just a rhetorical flourish, but real democracy and real freedom of expression is not and never has been men in powered wigs exchanging polite notes on sterling silver trays. Democracy is contentious, adversarial, often impolite, and sometimes downright nasty–just like homo sapiens. Expressing your opinion at the university where you work would certainly cause some controversy, but just as certainly, you’d keep your job.

Your statement that you’re not anti-union, but anti-leftist is absolutely inconsistent. You can’t maintain that trade unionism came from the right wing the political spectrum, can you? And finally (although I could go on and on), your contention that “leftist domination” of trade unions began in the last half of the 20th century is simply wrong. General Motors was unionized in the 1930’s when workers seized the factories and fought off the police, the Natonal Guard, and Pinkerton thugs. It wasn’t too long after that that Henry Ford, a pro-Nazi anti-Semite, recognized the rights of his employees to organize. The militants who led this struggle, some of whom were avowed communists, were expelled from the CIO during the McCarthy era. One could argue that THAT’s when the decline of the power trade unions began.

Italo:

I agree that there’s not much difference between the Republican and Democratic parties. In fact, I think there’s only one political party in the US–the party of multinational corporate capitalism. The Republicans are the right wing of that party; the Democrats, the left.

The Republicans tell the right that if you elect Democrats they will disband the military, abort any fetus they can get their hands on, promote homosexuality, end property rights in the United States, and raise taxes.

In Reality, virtually all Presidents have participated in military conflicts. Clinton passively bombed Iraq throughout his presidency and dumped our Uranium waste on Kosovo in the form of Uranium enriched warheads which have devastated the ecosystem in the Baltics.

In Reality, Bush has many pro-choice people in his administration including Dr. Rice, and the top three prospects for the republican nomination in 2008 are all pro-choice.

In Reality, early on in the Bush Administration he invited Elton John and his boyfriend over for a White House dinner and let them sleep in the Lincoln bedroom.

In Reality, neither party tried to pass legislation to combat the recent Supreme Court ruling against property rights until there was an outcry from both parties’ constituents causing the current bilateral congressional consensus that something does need to be done.

In Reality, the Bush Administration is probably going to reform the tax code by eliminating deductions for things like mortgages over $200,000–The Rich.

The Democrats tell the left that if you elect Republicans to office they will start wars, promote corporate scandals, stop taxing the rich, ban abortion, ban homosexuality, and destroy the environment.

In Reality, with regards to war, refer to Clinton example above. Also consider that Kerry ORIGINALY ran on a platform of supporting the war in Iraq.

In Reality, Ken Lay still sits on the board of directors for one of Teressa Heinz Kerry’s organizations and one of the key accountants in the Enron scandal was her escort to the Democratic National Convention. Air America was funded by the founder diverting $900,000 in funds from a charitable organization in which he sat on the board of directors. The funds were supposed to go to Boy’s and Girl’s Clubs as well as Alzheimer’s research. The rest of the board on this foundation is furious, but the founder of Air America has skipped the country. Also, Michael Moore made a small fortune by trading Halliburton stock and other defense contracts.

In Reality, with regards to taxation, refer to mortgage example above.

In Reality, with regards to abortion, refer to above.

In Reality, with regards to homosexuality, refer to above.

In Reality, with regards to the environment, refer to Kosovo conflict above. Also, consider that while campaigning for the Presidency, Kerry said we need to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. Well, how do you do this–INCREASE PRODUCTION AT HOME! I would also bet that Kerry voted yes on the Anwar Bill that got passed today which permits drilling.

The Left will say I’m wrong about the Democrats and see the hypocrisy of the Republicans; the Right will say I’m wrong about the Republicans and see the hypocrisy of the Democrats. In Reality, they are all political hacks who just want power–Right and Left. Many more examples could be given but even more answers made.

The only thing that changes in Washington when the balance of power shifts between the aisles is who starts WHINING.

You want to ban abortion–Vote third party.

You want to save the environment–Vote third party.

The worst thing we can do in this country is to keep nominating the Buffoons who ride on elephants and donkeys.

PS-I apologize for all the spelling and grammar errors as I am sure they are numerous.

“[The left wanting to take all my guns is] simply not true”.
Perhaps. But I think it’s more likely than not that the Left’s current position in favor of merely strenghtening gun control is a tactic for achieving the ultimate goal of total confiscation. Pose as a Leftist (if you’re not one) and have a few friendly conversations with gun control advocates. They’ll freely admit this.

“…your right “to speak freely” will be jeopardized. What gives you that idea?”
The Left controls universities. Universities currently tolerate less freedom of speech than any place in America. Did you see what happened to Larry Summers? Did you see how he had to grovel, debase himself, and do pennace in order to keep his job, after merely suggesting that a politically incorrect idea be considered?

“While it’s true that your political views might cause some “social rankor” [sic] at the university where you work, they will NOT cost you your job…”
My life would just be a living Hell. I’ve known Christians and Leftists. There is no question that Leftists are less civil. Christian strictures promote personal decency, unlike those of the Left, which effectively define decency as advocating the “correct” political positions.

“…[Christians being more polite than Leftists] doesn’t fit what I’ve seen going on outside Planned Parenthood clinics…”
We need empirical data. I would bet that Christian zealots are more civil than Leftist zealots. Christianity, unlike Leftism, is fundamentally otherworld. So they’re not as upset if they don’t get their way in “this life”.

“…it was no lefty who said that AIDS was God’s punishment for being gay.”
No, they say that global warming is Nature’s punishment for being capitalist, and that terrorism is a natural punishment for being pro-Israel or pro-American.

“…your decent salary, your fringe benefits, and your retirement come not from the good faith and Christian generosity of the Board of Trustees at the university where you work, but from years of organizing and hard work at the negotiating table on the part of the union that represents you.”
I’m not anti-union. I’m anti-Leftist. Leftist domination of unions did not occur until the last half of the 20th century. A time during which, perhaps not coincidentally, unions went into decline.

You say that the left wants to take “all of [your] guns.” That’s simply untrue. You say that if the left gets its way, your right “to speak freely” will be jeopardized. What gives you that idea?

While it’s true that your political views might cause some “social rankor” [sic] at the university where you work, they will NOT cost you your job, and if some leftist admistrator tried to fire you because of them, you can be sure that among the first to defend your rights would be the AAUP and the ACLU–which are certainly not right-wing organizations.

Your characterization of leftists as “profanity-spewing” screamers as opposed to “polite and civil” Christians certainly doesn’t fit what I’ve seen going on outside Planned Parenthood clinics, and it was no lefty who said that AIDS was God’s punishment for being gay.

And while I understand and sympathize (although not completely) with your concern for your pocketbook, you might consider the fact that your decent salary, your fringe benefits, and your retirement come not from the good faith and Christian generosity of the Board of Trustees at the university where you work, but from years of organizing and hard work at the negotiating table on the part of the union that represents you.

I guess at this point we should just agree to disagree. Clearly you have a different view of the world than I do. So I will catch up with you on another thread at another time.

Elliot

“…the last part was a joke”.
I know. I was joking, too.

“Don’t [homosexuals] have a right to be who they are without the government outlawing their behavior.”
I agree with this (properly construed). But we were discussing a choice between a ban on homosexual behavior and being taxed by, say, and additional 20%. Given this choice, I’d gladly accept an additional $20K per year not to have sex with men. A ban on homosexual behavior affects a few, a ban on keeping one’s income affects everyone.

“What about the government agreeing to fully support children of mothers who choose not to have abortions?”
Personally, I’m pro-abortion. As for the religious Right, I think they’d encourage the unaborted children to be put up for adoption. No government funds need be involved. [There really is a huge demand for adoptable babies.]

“Health care should be a fundamental right of living in a society with the means to provide it.”
I know that’s a fundamental tenet of Leftist thought, but it’s never made any sense to me. Saying that Bob has a right to the labor of Jane (an M.D.) is saying that Bob has the right to enslave Dr. Jane. I would agree with you, if health care services were provided by nature, like air or sunlight. But human beings have to labor to provide it. How can human A have a right to the labor of human B?

“[The religious right does not keep to themselves, because] …They have infected the highest levels of our government…”
By “keeping to themselves”, I meant not making a nuisance of themselves when you walk across campus, for example. One is in much greater danger of encountering a screaming Leftist political activist, than a screamer from the Right. I don’t object to groups that simply run for office and get elected, even though I might disagree with them.

Happy All Souls Day!

Lighten up the last part was a joke. It just seemed to fit. I do not consider you to be stupid. I don’t engage in exchanges with people who I consider stupid. It is not worth my time. I have a number of friends who I consider highly intelligent who hold more right wing positions than I do. It is not about intelligence per se. After all I think Karl Rove is highly intelligent. I also think he is morally corrupt.

On other points. The fact that you are not a homosexual does not affect the fact that there are people who are. Don’t they have a right to be who they are without the government outlawing their behavior.

Most abortions are economic. What about the government agreeing to fully support children of mothers who choose not to have abortions? Does that work for you?

Health care should be a fundamental right of living in a society with the means to provide it. If we spent 1/2 the DOD budget on health care, it would be covered.

Your point that the right tends to keep to themselves is not supported by the evidence. They have infected the highest levels of our government. (yes the word infected was intentional.

Cheers

“So it appears that you would rather have the government in you bedroom than your bank account.”
No. I’d rather have it outlaw homosexual behavior and abortion. I not homosexual. Abortions don’t happen in my bedroom.

“I don’t own a gun so it really doesn’t bother me to not have one.”
You’ll probably change your mind the second you need one.

“I think the government should be paying for my healthcare instead of my employer for which I would gladly pay higher taxes.”
Forcing someone else to pay for my health care is just theft. I should pay for it. Should you be taxed to pay for my car repairs?

“I think that keeping the earth pollution free is a worthy goal…”
Yes it is, but not at all costs. If we had zero tolerance for pollution, industrial civilization and all of its benefits would be impossible. And the world would only be able to support 5% of its current population.

“What is frightening is the (so called) Christians who think what we do here on earth doesn’t matter because the rapture is coming etc. etc.”
Yeah, they’re pretty kooky. But at least they tend to keep to themselves, unlike rabid Leftists for who political activism is a religious duty.

“I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.”
Are you perhaps implying that I’m stupid?:) I grant that I’m a poor speller, but lobotomized? Isn’t it at least conceivable that someone can have non-Leftist views and not be a moron?