Comments on: What we have become http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/ Random samplings from a universe of ideas. Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:18:33 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Count Iblis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8133 Count Iblis Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:40:48 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8133 Lubos: <blockquote> These are not normal criminal cases. These are urgent and very special cases that potentially threaten thousands of lives and they're examples of the criminals for whom the Patriot Act was designed. What you seem to say is that these terrorist suspects should have more extensive human rights than regular criminal suspects. This is unacceptable and incompatible with the current law, as of September 2001 - December 2005. Of course that they have lower rights and the authorities have extended rights and tools to deal with them. </blockquote> I'm more concerned about innocent people being wrongly branded as terrorists. Even with all the checks and balances of the justice system, innocent people are put behind bars in the US. This happens in other countries too, but in the US this isn't considered to be a big deal. People say that the judicial system did work if a man on death row is freed after 20 years on death row after DNA evidence proved him innocent. In France the justice minister ordered an investigation after convictions for pedophelia were overturned on appeal after 4 years. If a prosecutor can get away with this in a normal court: http://members.shaw.ca/imaginarycrimes/smith&allen.htm ''Prosecutor Jonathan Rosenbaum told the jury that the children hadn't identified Allen at the line up because they were paralyzed with fear. One mother testified that when her little boy saw Allen, he started crying and ran from the viewing room. The video tape of the lineup, which was not shown to the jury, proves her testimony was false -- her son didn't cry or run from the room, but rather seemed to be having a good time.'' then what do you think will happen if there is no court at all? Lubos:

These are not normal criminal cases. These are urgent and very special cases that potentially threaten thousands of lives and they’re examples of the criminals for whom the Patriot Act was designed.

What you seem to say is that these terrorist suspects should have more extensive human rights than regular criminal suspects. This is unacceptable and incompatible with the current law, as of September 2001 – December 2005. Of course that they have lower rights and the authorities have extended rights and tools to deal with them.

I’m more concerned about innocent people being wrongly branded as terrorists. Even with all the checks and balances of the justice system, innocent people are put behind bars in the US. This happens in other countries too, but in the US this isn’t considered to be a big deal.

People say that the judicial system did work if a man on death row is freed after 20 years on death row after DNA evidence proved him innocent. In France the justice minister ordered an investigation after convictions for pedophelia were overturned on appeal after 4 years.

If a prosecutor can get away with this in a normal court:

http://members.shaw.ca/imaginarycrimes/smith&allen.htm

”Prosecutor Jonathan Rosenbaum told the jury that the children hadn’t identified Allen at the line up because they were paralyzed with fear. One mother testified that when her little boy saw Allen, he started crying and ran from the viewing room. The video tape of the lineup, which was not shown to the jury, proves her testimony was false — her son didn’t cry or run from the room, but rather seemed to be having a good time.”

then what do you think will happen if there is no court at all?

]]> By: Dissident http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8134 Dissident Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:17:26 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8134 Elliot, how many times do you have to be told? String theory is the Theory Of Everything. Hence, its proph... sorry about that, I mean its practitioners are by definition Experts On Everything. ;) Elliot, how many times do you have to be told? String theory is the Theory Of Everything. Hence, its proph… sorry about that, I mean its practitioners are by definition Experts On Everything. ;)

]]> By: Elliot http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8135 Elliot Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:10:56 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8135 So now Rice and the Bush regime are backpedaling saying we shouldn't do this. Hopefully they are getting the message that this is just not how we do things in the United States of America or for that matter the entire civilized world. Lubos wrote: "Dear Moshe, indeed, I would also recommend us and you in particular to save your energy for other things and avoid comments about questions that you have no idea about - such as war strategy." Lubos can you please review your military/intellegence service background for us so we can understand how you came to be such an expert on these matters? Elliot So now Rice and the Bush regime are backpedaling saying we shouldn’t do this. Hopefully they are getting the message that this is just not how we do things in the United States of America or for that matter the entire civilized world.

Lubos wrote:

“Dear Moshe, indeed, I would also recommend us and you in particular to save your energy for other things and avoid comments about questions that you have no idea about – such as war strategy.”

Lubos can you please review your military/intellegence service background for us so we can understand how you came to be such an expert on these matters?

Elliot

]]> By: logopetria http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8179 logopetria Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:48:43 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8179 Arun: I took your comment to be a counterargument to the claim that there was no oversight. Apologies for misunderstanding. I also assumed that the sarcasm in my comment #32 would be obvious. I'll try to make it more obvious next time I'm trying to insult Lubos! Arun:
I took your comment to be a counterargument to the claim that there was no oversight. Apologies for misunderstanding.

I also assumed that the sarcasm in my comment #32 would be obvious. I’ll try to make it more obvious next time I’m trying to insult Lubos!

]]> By: sisyphus http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8178 sisyphus Wed, 07 Dec 2005 01:18:01 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8178 Sean: And good riddance to MD! At the root of power is technology; at the root of technology is science; at the root of science is the scientist. What sort of idiot savant could do science and be unconcerned with the implications of his/her work? Most of us admirers of Einstein appreciate his efforts to understand the meaning of his life's work as his efforts to understand the nature of the world. In any case, nobody's forced to participate in any particular thread. There's plenty of good science stuff on your blog. Keep up the good work. Sean: And good riddance to MD! At the root of power is technology; at the root of technology is science; at the root of science is the scientist. What sort of idiot savant could do science and be unconcerned with the implications of his/her work? Most of us admirers of Einstein appreciate his efforts to understand the meaning of his life’s work as his efforts to understand the nature of the world.

In any case, nobody’s forced to participate in any particular thread. There’s plenty of good science stuff on your blog. Keep up the good work.

]]> By: Count Iblis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8177 Count Iblis Tue, 06 Dec 2005 22:34:08 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8177 MobyDikc: <blockquote> Does anyone know any blogs about physics that purposefully avoids posts about politics and making fences?</blockquote> Politics is a physical phenomena too. :) MobyDikc:
Does anyone know any blogs about physics that purposefully avoids posts about politics and making fences?

Politics is a physical phenomena too. :)

]]> By: Amara http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8176 Amara Tue, 06 Dec 2005 20:55:01 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8176 (#39) I tend to be less interested in those scientists that are not involved in the activities of their social, cultural and political environments. (#39) I tend to be less interested in those scientists that are not involved in the activities of their social, cultural and political environments.

]]> By: Sean http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8175 Sean Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:54:26 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8175 Plenty on the blogroll. Bye! Plenty on the blogroll. Bye!

]]> By: MobyDikc http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8174 MobyDikc Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:50:06 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8174 Does anyone know any blogs about physics that purposefully avoids posts about politics and making fences? Does anyone know any blogs about physics that purposefully avoids posts about politics and making fences?

]]> By: Arun http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/comment-page-1/#comment-8173 Arun Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:16:50 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/04/what-we-have-become/#comment-8173 Logopetria, you are right in that what Specter et. al. were thwarted from doing is what is called oversight. But where did I claim the system is working? It is quite evident that it is not. If you go and look at the debate that I quoted from , you will find that one reason Arlen Specter voted for retaining the right of habeaus corpus for detainees (even though army prisoners of war never had such a right) is because of this inability to make sure that the rules are indeed being followed regarding treatment of prisoners. Specter also noted that the Congress has mostly failed to act; the only vigilance has been exercised by the courts. You should hardly complain about what I wrote after your #32. Logopetria, you are right in that what Specter et. al. were thwarted from doing is what is called oversight. But where did I claim the system is working? It is quite evident that it is not. If you go and look at the debate that I quoted from , you will find that one reason Arlen Specter voted for retaining the right of habeaus corpus for detainees (even though army prisoners of war never had such a right) is because of this inability to make sure that the rules are indeed being followed regarding treatment of prisoners. Specter also noted that the Congress has mostly failed to act; the only vigilance has been exercised by the courts.

You should hardly complain about what I wrote after your #32.

]]>