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	<title>Comments on: A good day for science</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: A student</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8827</link>
		<dc:creator>A student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8827</guid>
		<description>I still don&#039;t get why there is anything wrong with a theory that has a great body of circumstantial evidence behind it, and absolutely no conclusive proof against it.  I don&#039;t understand why we as scientists pan the idea of intelligent design.  The fact is, we really have no idea what&#039;s out there.
In my opinion, it is impossible to completely discard the idea of intelligent design.  Though I&#039;m not a creation activist, I am forced to admit that:

a)There is no scientific reason to reject the possibility of the existence of a higher power.  No, we cannot conclusively measure it or quantify its existence.  But quantum mechanics arrived a long time ago, and hardly anyone believes in limitless powers of observation anymore.  In other words, the fact that we can&#039;t measure it does not mean it doesn&#039;t exist.  There are a lot of things we can&#039;t measure that are certainly real enough... the other side of the event horizon comes to mind. (And according to many physicists, reality includes such mysteries as M-theory, the Higgs boson, et cetera.)


b) The theory makes sense.  Having a higher power create the universe certainly solves a lot of problems; it makes the entire question of origin a great deal simpler.  How did penguins survive more than one generation in Antarctica before they evolved the group dynamics to form a working relationship between the mother and father for the survival of the chick?  If we accept the possibility of intelligent design, it is obvious that the birds were created for life in Antarctica.  There is no mental gymnastics, trying to fit the observed world with a certain theory.

I am not a religious fanatic, and I try to be scientific.  But the face of science is changing, and what was once considered the hobby of dreamers is now accepted fact. What would Galileo, with his rigid adherance to the experimental method, think of what is now modern science? Newton might or might not be ready for relativity.  And we might or might not be ready for what very well may be out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don&#8217;t get why there is anything wrong with a theory that has a great body of circumstantial evidence behind it, and absolutely no conclusive proof against it.  I don&#8217;t understand why we as scientists pan the idea of intelligent design.  The fact is, we really have no idea what&#8217;s out there.<br />
In my opinion, it is impossible to completely discard the idea of intelligent design.  Though I&#8217;m not a creation activist, I am forced to admit that:</p>
<p>a)There is no scientific reason to reject the possibility of the existence of a higher power.  No, we cannot conclusively measure it or quantify its existence.  But quantum mechanics arrived a long time ago, and hardly anyone believes in limitless powers of observation anymore.  In other words, the fact that we can&#8217;t measure it does not mean it doesn&#8217;t exist.  There are a lot of things we can&#8217;t measure that are certainly real enough&#8230; the other side of the event horizon comes to mind. (And according to many physicists, reality includes such mysteries as M-theory, the Higgs boson, et cetera.)</p>
<p>b) The theory makes sense.  Having a higher power create the universe certainly solves a lot of problems; it makes the entire question of origin a great deal simpler.  How did penguins survive more than one generation in Antarctica before they evolved the group dynamics to form a working relationship between the mother and father for the survival of the chick?  If we accept the possibility of intelligent design, it is obvious that the birds were created for life in Antarctica.  There is no mental gymnastics, trying to fit the observed world with a certain theory.</p>
<p>I am not a religious fanatic, and I try to be scientific.  But the face of science is changing, and what was once considered the hobby of dreamers is now accepted fact. What would Galileo, with his rigid adherance to the experimental method, think of what is now modern science? Newton might or might not be ready for relativity.  And we might or might not be ready for what very well may be out there.</p>
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		<title>By: sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8826</link>
		<dc:creator>sisyphus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 21:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8826</guid>
		<description>Zilch:  Good interview.   Strange situation, though  - both believers and non-believers in God and Tibbit are still awaiting the advent of reason.

Meanwhile,  if, however unlikely it may seem,  ID should eventually pass the science criteria,  which would take precedence -  upholding a law based on good political reasoning or upholding the truth?   (assuming bona fide science is truth)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zilch:  Good interview.   Strange situation, though  &#8211; both believers and non-believers in God and Tibbit are still awaiting the advent of reason.</p>
<p>Meanwhile,  if, however unlikely it may seem,  ID should eventually pass the science criteria,  which would take precedence &#8211;  upholding a law based on good political reasoning or upholding the truth?   (assuming bona fide science is truth)</p>
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		<title>By: zilch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8825</link>
		<dc:creator>zilch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8825</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The &quot;who designed the designer?&quot; argument is dispensed with by the creationists&#039; transcendent God that exists &quot;out of time&quot; - in eternity - and therefore requires no explanation in terms of origin.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The problem with this explanation is that it leaves us with a &quot;transcendent God that exists out of time&quot;- in other words, it is no explanation at all, but simply the positing of a rug we may not look under.
For a solution that doesn&#039;t involve eternal Gods, or an infinite stack of turtles, check out my exclusive interview with the Designer of God, &lt;a href=&quot;http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/designer_genes_a_rapprochement/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mrs. Tibbit.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The &#8220;who designed the designer?&#8221; argument is dispensed with by the creationists&#8217; transcendent God that exists &#8220;out of time&#8221; &#8211; in eternity &#8211; and therefore requires no explanation in terms of origin.</p></blockquote>
<p>The problem with this explanation is that it leaves us with a &#8220;transcendent God that exists out of time&#8221;- in other words, it is no explanation at all, but simply the positing of a rug we may not look under.<br />
For a solution that doesn&#8217;t involve eternal Gods, or an infinite stack of turtles, check out my exclusive interview with the Designer of God, <a href="http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/designer_genes_a_rapprochement/" rel="nofollow">Mrs. Tibbit.</a></p>
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		<title>By: sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8824</link>
		<dc:creator>sisyphus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8824</guid>
		<description>Mark:  I have no agenda here, nor any knowledge of the Discovery Institute,  but I have a problem with accepting the notion that anything in this world, including scientific method,  is so monolithically integrated and independent of its environment that it&#039;s incapable of adaptation.

The strength of the hypothesis-prediction-testing-observation chain is questionable (IMO).   How do we protect observation from paradigm-contamination?   How do we deal with predictions that can&#039;t be meaningfully   tested because observation alters results?  And what do we do with hypotheses (dealing with unavoidable subjects) that are mathematically sound but are incapable of making testable predictions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark:  I have no agenda here, nor any knowledge of the Discovery Institute,  but I have a problem with accepting the notion that anything in this world, including scientific method,  is so monolithically integrated and independent of its environment that it&#8217;s incapable of adaptation.</p>
<p>The strength of the hypothesis-prediction-testing-observation chain is questionable (IMO).   How do we protect observation from paradigm-contamination?   How do we deal with predictions that can&#8217;t be meaningfully   tested because observation alters results?  And what do we do with hypotheses (dealing with unavoidable subjects) that are mathematically sound but are incapable of making testable predictions?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8823</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8823</guid>
		<description>Thought experiments are great fun, and sometimes useful in developing hypotheses. They are also sometimes useful ways to probe the consistency of a theory. However, their use in no way represents the evolution of the scientific method. At the end of the day you have to explain all the data so far, and make predictions that can be tested and potentially used to falsify the idea. How one came up with the hypothesis is entirely irrelevant to the scientific method.

I don&#039;t wish to suggest that anyone in this thread is doing this, but there has been a fairly continuous stream of suggestions coming out of the Discovery Institute and some of its associates along the lines of the evolution of the scientific method. Behe even mentioned it in his Dover testimony, after which he was forced to agree that, under his evolved definition of the method, astrology would qualify as a science.

We have lots of other things that will immediately qualify as science once one changes the definition of science: religion; superstitions; belief in the paranormal; and even the wishful thinking of well-intentioned scientists. The scientific method is what distinguishes science from such ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thought experiments are great fun, and sometimes useful in developing hypotheses. They are also sometimes useful ways to probe the consistency of a theory. However, their use in no way represents the evolution of the scientific method. At the end of the day you have to explain all the data so far, and make predictions that can be tested and potentially used to falsify the idea. How one came up with the hypothesis is entirely irrelevant to the scientific method.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t wish to suggest that anyone in this thread is doing this, but there has been a fairly continuous stream of suggestions coming out of the Discovery Institute and some of its associates along the lines of the evolution of the scientific method. Behe even mentioned it in his Dover testimony, after which he was forced to agree that, under his evolved definition of the method, astrology would qualify as a science.</p>
<p>We have lots of other things that will immediately qualify as science once one changes the definition of science: religion; superstitions; belief in the paranormal; and even the wishful thinking of well-intentioned scientists. The scientific method is what distinguishes science from such ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8822</link>
		<dc:creator>sisyphus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 04:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8822</guid>
		<description>Davis:   The idea that the extent of order we find in the world suggests a grand intent is quite ancient, although Heraclitus et al didn&#039;t label it specifically ID (or the Greek equivalent).

The &quot;who designed the designer?&quot; argument is dispensed with by the creationists&#039; transcendent God that exists &quot;out of time&quot; - in eternity - and therefore requires no explanation in terms of origin.  It&#039;s only recently that mainstream creationists have felt it necessary to go scientific, perhaps that&#039;s because, as you say, they feel it&#039;s a way around legal barriers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Davis:   The idea that the extent of order we find in the world suggests a grand intent is quite ancient, although Heraclitus et al didn&#8217;t label it specifically ID (or the Greek equivalent).</p>
<p>The &#8220;who designed the designer?&#8221; argument is dispensed with by the creationists&#8217; transcendent God that exists &#8220;out of time&#8221; &#8211; in eternity &#8211; and therefore requires no explanation in terms of origin.  It&#8217;s only recently that mainstream creationists have felt it necessary to go scientific, perhaps that&#8217;s because, as you say, they feel it&#8217;s a way around legal barriers.</p>
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		<title>By: Davis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8821</link>
		<dc:creator>Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8821</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Eugene:
Can&#039;t we just regulate it away?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ah, the Unified Theory of Bureaucracy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Eugene:<br />
Can&#8217;t we just regulate it away?</p></blockquote>
<p>Ah, the Unified Theory of Bureaucracy!</p>
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		<title>By: Davis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8820</link>
		<dc:creator>Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8820</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The &quot;thought experiment&quot;, always a mainstay in philosophy, is more and more necessary to the development of scientific hypotheses (Relativity, QM); in this sense alone, scientific methodology is evolving.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I would argue the opposite -- thought experiments are becoming less and less useful in the development of scientific hypotheses, both because they can lead to wrong conclusions in counterintuitive fields like quantum physics (cf. Einstein and QM), and because modern physics is moving even more toward non-intuitive (not even counterintuitive) theories because of its heavily mathematical nature.

On the other hand, classical physicists like Newton could easily employ thought experiments to help develop theories, and likely did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The &#8220;thought experiment&#8221;, always a mainstay in philosophy, is more and more necessary to the development of scientific hypotheses (Relativity, QM); in this sense alone, scientific methodology is evolving.</p></blockquote>
<p>I would argue the opposite &#8212; thought experiments are becoming less and less useful in the development of scientific hypotheses, both because they can lead to wrong conclusions in counterintuitive fields like quantum physics (cf. Einstein and QM), and because modern physics is moving even more toward non-intuitive (not even counterintuitive) theories because of its heavily mathematical nature.</p>
<p>On the other hand, classical physicists like Newton could easily employ thought experiments to help develop theories, and likely did.</p>
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		<title>By: Eugene</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8819</link>
		<dc:creator>Eugene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8819</guid>
		<description>Davis says : Uninformative, though. If you allow an intelligent designer, it then becomes necessary to ask &quot;who designed the designer?&quot; And then, &quot;who designed the designer&#039;s designer?&quot; Ad infinitum. Pushing the difficulties and complexities off somewhere else, rather than explaining them, is not much of a scientific theory.

Can&#039;t we just regulate it away?

(Ok ok I keed!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Davis says : Uninformative, though. If you allow an intelligent designer, it then becomes necessary to ask &#8220;who designed the designer?&#8221; And then, &#8220;who designed the designer&#8217;s designer?&#8221; Ad infinitum. Pushing the difficulties and complexities off somewhere else, rather than explaining them, is not much of a scientific theory.</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t we just regulate it away?</p>
<p>(Ok ok I keed!)</p>
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		<title>By: Davis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/comment-page-1/#comment-8818</link>
		<dc:creator>Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/12/20/a-good-day-for-science/#comment-8818</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Too bad that ID has been hijacked by fundamentalists.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not so much &quot;hijacked by,&quot; as &quot;originated by in order to evade the Supreme Court decision on teaching creationism.&quot;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Essentially, though it hasn&#039;t been proven valid science, it&#039;s not an unintelligent inference.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Uninformative, though.  If you allow an intelligent designer, it then becomes necessary to ask &quot;who designed the designer?&quot;  And then, &quot;who designed the designer&#039;s designer?&quot;  Ad infinitum.  Pushing the difficulties and complexities off somewhere else, rather than explaining them, is not much of a scientific theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Too bad that ID has been hijacked by fundamentalists.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not so much &#8220;hijacked by,&#8221; as &#8220;originated by in order to evade the Supreme Court decision on teaching creationism.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>Essentially, though it hasn&#8217;t been proven valid science, it&#8217;s not an unintelligent inference.</p></blockquote>
<p>Uninformative, though.  If you allow an intelligent designer, it then becomes necessary to ask &#8220;who designed the designer?&#8221;  And then, &#8220;who designed the designer&#8217;s designer?&#8221;  Ad infinitum.  Pushing the difficulties and complexities off somewhere else, rather than explaining them, is not much of a scientific theory.</p>
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