Comments on: The godless North http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/ Random samplings from a universe of ideas. Tue, 14 Feb 2012 15:45:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: A. S. Nathan http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12651 A. S. Nathan Wed, 08 Mar 2006 04:48:59 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12651 As somebody who obtained my advanced degree in Vancouver, I can testify to the relatively reduced orthodoxy on religious matters in B.C. and Canada. Those numbers make sense now, as I had qualitatively arrived at the same conclusion. Expanding on some of the comments above, it is useful to note that religions especially God belief of the monotheistic kind (Christianity and Islam) have been the least tolerant and have shed a lot of blood. (Crusades then and Jihad now). Missionaries continue to "save" heathens at great cost to the local culture in poorer nations. Mother Teresa seems to be just as guilty of this type of aggressive proselytism. Sorry, my early Catholic "education" has left me somewhat disillusioned. Curiously, the non-theistic, polytheistic and pantheistic ones were the most tolerant. Ultimately, we are all "theologians" of some sort (msg #15 above) but surely experimentalists are on better ground... As somebody who obtained my advanced degree in Vancouver, I can testify to the relatively reduced orthodoxy on religious matters in B.C. and Canada. Those numbers make sense now, as I had qualitatively arrived at the same conclusion.
Expanding on some of the comments above, it is useful to note that religions especially God belief of the monotheistic kind (Christianity and Islam) have been the least tolerant and have shed a lot of blood. (Crusades then and Jihad now). Missionaries continue to “save” heathens at great cost to the local culture in poorer nations. Mother Teresa seems to be just as guilty of this type of aggressive proselytism. Sorry, my early Catholic “education” has left me somewhat disillusioned. Curiously, the non-theistic, polytheistic and pantheistic ones were the most tolerant. Ultimately, we are all “theologians” of some sort (msg #15 above) but surely experimentalists are on better ground…

]]> By: Count Iblis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12650 Count Iblis Sat, 04 Mar 2006 14:16:15 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12650 Health Care Information, it would have been more appropriate to post a spam message with a link to cheap Canadian drugs :) Health Care Information, it would have been more appropriate to post a spam message with a link to cheap Canadian drugs :)

]]> By: Kevin Barron http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12649 Kevin Barron Fri, 03 Mar 2006 09:28:00 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12649 Sean, as a backstabbing atheist Canadian, I have to confess the smiles are all a facade as you suspected. But as a friend of Tommy Douglas (see the Mouseland clip above), I can tell you that he started out as a Baptist minister and went on to be one of the most effective leaders in Canada. Not only did he create Medicare, he was also responsible for the 40-hour work week, and a bill of rights which preceded the UN version, and more. But what I remember most vividly was his sense of humour -- nicely captured in this quote: "I don't mind being a symbol but I don't want to become a monument. There are monuments all over the Parliament Buildings and I've seen what the pigeons do to them." Sean,

as a backstabbing atheist Canadian, I have to confess the smiles are all a facade as you suspected.
But as a friend of Tommy Douglas (see the Mouseland clip above), I can tell you that he started out as a Baptist minister and went on to be one of the most effective leaders in Canada. Not only did he create Medicare, he was also responsible for the 40-hour work week, and a bill of rights which preceded the UN version, and more.
But what I remember most vividly was his sense of humour — nicely captured in this quote:

“I don’t mind being a symbol but I don’t want to
become a monument. There are monuments all over
the Parliament Buildings and I’ve seen what the
pigeons do to them.”

]]> By: Plato http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12627 Plato Wed, 01 Mar 2006 23:15:18 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12627 Strange for a man who if dead, should be consumed by, "where his bones should lie." Puzzling. Strange for a man who if dead, should be consumed by, “where his bones should lie.”

Puzzling.

]]> By: Kaleberg http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12648 Kaleberg Wed, 01 Mar 2006 19:02:37 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12648 "The Bechrians", answered Autolycus, "have these peculiarities: They speak the truth, are monogamous and faithful to their wives, do not make war on their neighbors and, being wholly ignorant of the existence of any gods or godesses , spend their lives without fear of retribution for their sins. They believe that when a man dies, he dies utterly, and therefore are unafraid of ghosts. Their land is also free of the fevers which plague their neighbors, and as fertile as one might wish. I have often considered settling among them; only that, when I came to die, my bones would remain unburied, which would be a terrible thing for a Greek as religious minded as myself." from Hercules, My Shipmate by Robert Graves - p 245 “The Bechrians”, answered Autolycus, “have these peculiarities: They speak the truth, are monogamous and faithful to their wives, do not make war on their neighbors and, being wholly ignorant of the existence of any gods or godesses , spend their lives without fear of retribution for their sins. They believe that when a man dies, he dies utterly, and therefore are unafraid of ghosts. Their land is also free of the fevers which plague their neighbors, and as fertile as one might wish. I have often considered settling among them; only that, when I came to die, my bones would remain unburied, which would be a terrible thing for a Greek as religious minded as myself.”

from Hercules, My Shipmate by Robert Graves – p 245

]]> By: Jenn http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12647 Jenn Tue, 28 Feb 2006 04:11:56 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12647 'backstabbing Enlightenment hedonists'?? Nah, without formal religious ties, we've just got nothing to be hellbent about... ‘backstabbing Enlightenment hedonists’??

Nah, without formal religious ties, we’ve just got nothing to be hellbent about…

]]> By: Alejandro Rivero http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12625 Alejandro Rivero Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:13:14 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12625 (hmm was re #22) (hmm was re #22)

]]> By: Alejandro Rivero http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12626 Alejandro Rivero Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:12:39 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12626 Re #23 we have a say, "I do not believe even in the Catholic religion, which is the only true one". Re #23 we have a say, “I do not believe even in the Catholic religion, which is the only true one”.

]]> By: Count Iblis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12624 Count Iblis Mon, 27 Feb 2006 00:42:01 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12624 Hmmm, only 2 secular schools???? Hmmm, only 2 secular schools????

]]> By: Ruth Ellen http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12620 Ruth Ellen Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:25:54 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12620 "Remarkably enough, despite have only two Jews, Vancouver BC seems to support some 13 synagogues." As well as two secularist organizations/schools: http://csjo.org/pages/affiliates.htm#canada “Remarkably enough, despite have only two Jews, Vancouver BC seems to support some 13 synagogues.”

As well as two secularist organizations/schools: http://csjo.org/pages/affiliates.htm#canada

]]> By: Ruth Ellen http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12622 Ruth Ellen Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:23:01 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12622 "For persons who have no connection or affiliation with any religious group or denomination, mark No religion. Report 'atheist' or 'agnostic' if applicable." This is tricky. What about those of us who are Jewish AND atheist? “For persons who have no connection or affiliation with any religious group or denomination, mark No religion. Report ‘atheist’ or ‘agnostic’ if applicable.”

This is tricky. What about those of us who are Jewish AND atheist?

]]> By: Plato http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12621 Plato Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:00:25 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12621 Ah, I see. Thanks Ah, I see. Thanks

]]> By: Alejandro Rivero http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12623 Alejandro Rivero Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:59:19 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12623 #16, note #2 was asking about the extant 10%. I was offering a conjecture: Native american religions. #16, note #2 was asking about the extant 10%. I was offering a conjecture: Native american religions.

]]> By: CanuckRob http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12646 CanuckRob Sun, 26 Feb 2006 01:09:50 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12646 Welcome to BC Sean, maybe a fit chilly but afterall it is the middle of winter. I actually live out ine fraser Valley and this is known as the bible belt of BC. (hundreds of churches and just seven pubs) however overall I would agree that Canadians are far less religuos than Americans. Part of may be a reactionagaisnt thereligous excesses we see south of the border but I think we just tend to be more European in our outlook (although this may change with the rapid Asian immigration). Many of us consider that what makes us Canadian is that we share much of the entrpreneurial spirit of the US coupled with the liberal social attitudes of Europe. Welcome to BC Sean, maybe a fit chilly but afterall it is the middle of winter. I actually live out ine fraser Valley and this is known as the bible belt of BC. (hundreds of churches and just seven pubs) however overall I would agree that Canadians are far less religuos than Americans. Part of may be a reactionagaisnt thereligous excesses we see south of the border but I think we just tend to be more European in our outlook (although this may change with the rapid Asian immigration). Many of us consider that what makes us Canadian is that we share much of the entrpreneurial spirit of the US coupled with the liberal social attitudes of Europe.

]]> By: Kea http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12645 Kea Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:49:41 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12645 "I don't believe people who claim to have no religion at all, because they usually believe in themselves, their job, politics, football teams, or "strings" as a kind of religion or God symbol..." That's all very well, but let's face it: that's <i>not</i> what the census question is asking. “I don’t believe people who claim to have no religion at all, because they usually believe in themselves, their job, politics, football teams, or “strings” as a kind of religion or God symbol…”

That’s all very well, but let’s face it: that’s not what the census question is asking.

]]> By: CapitalistImperialistPig http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12644 CapitalistImperialistPig Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:33:05 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12644 Remarkably enough, despite have only two Jews, Vancouver BC seems to support some <a href="http://www.discovervancouver.com/GVB/synagog.asp" rel="nofollow">13 synagogues.</a> Remarkably enough, despite have only two Jews, Vancouver BC seems to support some 13 synagogues.

]]> By: Plato http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12643 Plato Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:57:35 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12643 <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada" rel="nofollow">Aboriginal Peoples in Canada</a> Why? Assume Population at Approx. 36 Million in Canada Aboriginal Peoples in Canada

Why?

Assume Population at Approx. 36 Million in Canada

]]> By: Science http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12642 Science Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:18:53 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12642 Sean, religions don't lead to genuine decency as they mostly encourage morality using the bribe of future riches in heaven, and the threat of hell. Bribes/threats always lead to insincere decency, even with kids! Orthodoxy which absolves sins in return for giving alms and attending an hour on Sundays, can be corrupting (I'm Catholic). I don't believe people who claim to have no religion at all, because they usually believe in themselves, their job, politics, football teams, or "strings" as a kind of religion or God symbol... Sean, religions don’t lead to genuine decency as they mostly encourage morality using the bribe of future riches in heaven, and the threat of hell. Bribes/threats always lead to insincere decency, even with kids! Orthodoxy which absolves sins in return for giving alms and attending an hour on Sundays, can be corrupting (I’m Catholic). I don’t believe people who claim to have no religion at all, because they usually believe in themselves, their job, politics, football teams, or “strings” as a kind of religion or God symbol…

]]> By: Pyracantha http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12641 Pyracantha Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:56:26 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12641 I don't think that having religion or not determines whether people are well-behaved or not. I think it has much more to do with cultural and possibly even geographical factors which may be independent of religion. Just because you or someone else is an atheist doesn't automatically mean that they are going to be moral, well-behaved, considerate people. They were just raised to be that way. The next question is, what is it that really causes human beings to act with consideration and peacefulness. If your culture values "honor," male supremacy, violence, and revenge, then no amount of atheism will stop you from following that culture. (Not all religions, or even not all types of a single religion, insist on these qualities or foster them in followers.) Whereas if your culture (or family) brought you up to be kind, peaceful, and considerate, they might even be devoutly religious and still have the same qualities! It's a task for the social engineer to find out what elicits good behavior in people, and then try to implement it. I don’t think that having religion or not determines whether people are well-behaved or not. I think it has much more to do with cultural and possibly even geographical factors which may be independent of religion. Just because you or someone else is an atheist doesn’t automatically mean that they are going to be moral, well-behaved, considerate people. They were just raised to be that way. The next question is, what is it that really causes human beings to act with consideration and peacefulness. If your culture values “honor,” male supremacy, violence, and revenge, then no amount of atheism will stop you from following that culture. (Not all religions, or even not all types of a single religion, insist on these qualities or foster them in followers.) Whereas if your culture (or family) brought you up to be kind, peaceful, and considerate, they might even be devoutly religious and still have the same qualities! It’s a task for the social engineer to find out what elicits good behavior in people, and then try to implement it.

]]> By: PhilipJ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/comment-page-1/#comment-12640 PhilipJ Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:43:43 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/25/the-godless-north/#comment-12640 Hi Sean, welcome to the we(s)t coast. In a rare display of freak weather, you're even getting to see some snow today! :) Hi Sean, welcome to the we(s)t coast. In a rare display of freak weather, you’re even getting to see some snow today! :)

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