Comments on: Horgan on the End of Science and Religion http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/ Random samplings from a universe of ideas. Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:03:04 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: adam http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14441 adam Sun, 09 Apr 2006 23:49:12 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14441 I'm not sure that the space-time continuum could withstand the increase in Dawkins' ego that might result from another award. Put Dawkins in the same concrete bunker as Steve Jobs, for the Good of All. I’m not sure that the space-time continuum could withstand the increase in Dawkins’ ego that might result from another award.

Put Dawkins in the same concrete bunker as Steve Jobs, for the Good of All.

]]> By: Sean http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14431 Sean Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:16:41 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14431 Anthony, in all seriousness, I'm perfectly happy to accept money from the Templeton Foundation (or wherever) in a context where I can make my views known with perfect clarity. When I was invited to a science-and-religion conference at Notre Dame a few years ago to give a talk on cosmology, I said I would go but only if they let me talk about atheism, which they were happy to do. That conference had Templeton funding, with which I have no problem. But I didn't want to go to the Townes symposium just to give a talk on dark energy, nor did I want to rail against the existence of God at Charlie Townes's 90th birthday party. I heard that there was some talk of having a science-and-religion panel at that conference, but it never got off the ground; I would have been happy to attend (and take their money) as part of that. Anthony, in all seriousness, I’m perfectly happy to accept money from the Templeton Foundation (or wherever) in a context where I can make my views known with perfect clarity. When I was invited to a science-and-religion conference at Notre Dame a few years ago to give a talk on cosmology, I said I would go but only if they let me talk about atheism, which they were happy to do. That conference had Templeton funding, with which I have no problem. But I didn’t want to go to the Townes symposium just to give a talk on dark energy, nor did I want to rail against the existence of God at Charlie Townes’s 90th birthday party. I heard that there was some talk of having a science-and-religion panel at that conference, but it never got off the ground; I would have been happy to attend (and take their money) as part of that.

]]> By: Anthony A. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14432 Anthony A. Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:36:48 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14432 Sean, I understand the context; but despite your generous philanthropic contributions to the organizations you mention, the effect of your acceptance would be to help Templeton's image by demonstrating that it is openminded, right? Or are you arguing that by doing respectable things Templeton increases its respectability? Hmm, I would agree with that... Sean,

I understand the context; but despite your generous philanthropic contributions to the organizations you mention, the effect of your acceptance would be to help Templeton’s image by demonstrating that it is openminded, right?

Or are you arguing that by doing respectable things Templeton increases its respectability? Hmm, I would agree with that…

]]> By: Plato http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14433 Plato Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:24:59 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14433 Interesting <a href="http://www.longbets.org/12" rel="nofollow">bet</a> by the way?:) Interesting bet by the way?:)

]]> By: Sean http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14427 Sean Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:12:17 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14427 Anthony, you have to read carefully! In the context of this discussion, it should be clear that I was simply offering myself as a test case, to allow the Templeton Foundation to demonstrate its committment to support deep thinkers regardless of their religious inclinations. Naturally, I would donate the prize money to my favorite charities (the Jaguar Motor Corporation, the Bellagio, the Cayman Islands Tourist Bureau...). Anthony, you have to read carefully! In the context of this discussion, it should be clear that I was simply offering myself as a test case, to allow the Templeton Foundation to demonstrate its committment to support deep thinkers regardless of their religious inclinations. Naturally, I would donate the prize money to my favorite charities (the Jaguar Motor Corporation, the Bellagio, the Cayman Islands Tourist Bureau…).

]]> By: Anthony A. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14426 Anthony A. Sat, 08 Apr 2006 14:33:44 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14426 Since Sean feels that accepting money from the Templeton Foundation means that one implicitly endorses its mission, and since he has now agreed that he will do so for $1.4m, but not $2k, I suppose we now know his price range. If I thought the Templeton Foundation was interested in simply buying off scientists I would advise them to open negotiations immediately ;-) Anthony Since Sean feels that accepting money from the Templeton Foundation means that one implicitly endorses its mission, and since he has now agreed that he will do so for $1.4m, but not $2k, I suppose we now know his price range. If I thought the Templeton Foundation was interested in simply buying off scientists I would advise them to open negotiations immediately ;-)

Anthony

]]> By: adam http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14425 adam Sat, 08 Apr 2006 12:48:00 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14425 The bit about Morris makes no sense. He says that ID is crap but believes in Christ's Resurrection and this is some sort of problem? So long as he didn't claim that Christ's Resurrection was a scientifically explicable natural process, I don't see why anyone would have any problem with it, much as they wouldn't have any problems if a scientist said 'I believe in an external world' (another non-scientific belief). If there is some sort of standard that requires scientists to have a wholly scientific belief set, then we'll all fail. The mixing of science and religious belief is where danger lies, not in the existence of religious belief. I don't know if humanity will 'outgrow religion' but I don't think that it's likely that it will 'outgrow' spiritualism and other preoccupations with the supernatural. I don't trust the Templeton foundation, but what you describe as 'the money shot' is the comment of one 'Templeton official', which doesn't appear, on the face of it, to be much of a smoking gun. The bit about Morris makes no sense. He says that ID is crap but believes in Christ’s Resurrection and this is some sort of problem? So long as he didn’t claim that Christ’s Resurrection was a scientifically explicable natural process, I don’t see why anyone would have any problem with it, much as they wouldn’t have any problems if a scientist said ‘I believe in an external world’ (another non-scientific belief). If there is some sort of standard that requires scientists to have a wholly scientific belief set, then we’ll all fail. The mixing of science and religious belief is where danger lies, not in the existence of religious belief.

I don’t know if humanity will ‘outgrow religion’ but I don’t think that it’s likely that it will ‘outgrow’ spiritualism and other preoccupations with the supernatural.

I don’t trust the Templeton foundation, but what you describe as ‘the money shot’ is the comment of one ‘Templeton official’, which doesn’t appear, on the face of it, to be much of a smoking gun.

]]> By: PK http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14429 PK Sat, 08 Apr 2006 08:51:04 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14429 The truth will only come out if you work on it. If society starts questioning science funding because it leads to "immorality and atheism", then ultimately the money will dry up and the search for the "truth" will stop. I think there is a real danger of this happening in the US. The truth will only come out if you work on it.

If society starts questioning science funding because it leads to “immorality and atheism”, then ultimately the money will dry up and the search for the “truth” will stop. I think there is a real danger of this happening in the US.

]]> By: Elliot http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14430 Elliot Sat, 08 Apr 2006 04:48:55 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14430 Shouldn't we all take some satisfaction in the fact that the "truth" will eventually come out. I mean truth in its most basic and fundamental sense that the world is made up of x, y, and z, which interact in certain ways etc. A million Templeton Foundations can't change the truth or buy the truth. What I am saying is that at some point it doesn't matter who "believes" what. The evidence will speak for itself. Perhaps there are dark ages ahead before that time, but I remain optimistic. Shouldn’t we all take some satisfaction in the fact that the “truth” will eventually come out. I mean truth in its most basic and fundamental sense that the world is made up of x, y, and z, which interact in certain ways etc. A million Templeton Foundations can’t change the truth or buy the truth.

What I am saying is that at some point it doesn’t matter who “believes” what. The evidence will speak for itself.

Perhaps there are dark ages ahead before that time, but I remain optimistic.

]]> By: Mark http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-14424 Mark Sat, 08 Apr 2006 02:55:36 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/04/06/horgan-on-the-end-of-science-and-religion/#comment-14424 Belizean, I agree with you that it is silly to encourage them to lie. But that's not what this quote is about. What Horgan is saying, if you read the whole piece (perhaps it is my fault for partially quoting him), is that he suspects "that some of the new fellows have doubts about jumping on the Templeton bandwagon." and that if they want to, "The foundation could assuage the misgivings of those and other grantees with a few simple acts.", such as those mentioned in the quote I gave. In other words, if they are not really interested in an impartial investigation of the relationship of reason to nonsense (my clarifying version of the words they use :)), then they should say so up front and not pretend they are. Belizean, I agree with you that it is silly to encourage them to lie. But that’s not what this quote is about. What Horgan is saying, if you read the whole piece (perhaps it is my fault for partially quoting him), is that he suspects “that some of the new fellows have doubts about jumping on the Templeton bandwagon.” and that if they want to, “The foundation could assuage the misgivings of those and other grantees with a few simple acts.”, such as those mentioned in the quote I gave.

In other words, if they are not really interested in an impartial investigation of the relationship of reason to nonsense (my clarifying version of the words they use :) ), then they should say so up front and not pretend they are.

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