Well, it went wonderfully. What went wonderfully? My one hour (plus) talk at a local church in the neighbourhood. I mentioned the backstory in a previous post. It was quite a long day in the end. I got up at 6:00am to write my “sermon” -which involved hunting with Google images for images which would illustrate the various themes I wanted to bring out. I sketched what I wanted to say mostly in my head and scribbled on a few scraps of paper, but the idea was that I did not intend to be scripted, but instead talk off the cuff. The scribbling was simply a means of ordering various themes.
We had a full church service, with some excellent singing (with the pastor Aaron Howard on the piano). And clapping, lots of clapping. There was some reading from scripture, with some nice verses chosen, and there was prayer. I have a problem with none of the above, I should say. It was not at odds with what I came to talk about: Science and science careers. These were good people, doing great things in their community, and that’s all that matters to me at this point.
In some cases, I was able to find resonance with what I wanted to say and what came up in the verses, and so I improvised a bit and incorporated some bits here and there as I listened. I got a rather grand introduction from a lady who writes children’s books about black inventors and scientists, which I thought was just perfect. I spoke for about an hour, and then there was an unexpected amount of really excellent questions afterwards, and so we went on for another half an hour.
I can’t get over just how pleased everyone was that I came out to talk to them. They’ve never done this before. We spoke at length about problems in the community and where -with limited resources- they could do more about getting kids exposed to science. I mentioned that they might consider not waiting for the schools to be “fixed” and take matters into their own hands. Why not have a “science club” for the young (and everybody else), right alongside their bible club, and just share information about good books, ideas of the day, etc, and get people from USC and other places to come and talk as guest speakers? They really could hardly believe me when I said that if they called up USC and asked, they could get more people to come and give a talk (e.g., “Please come and tell us something about DNA”), especially if they make sure that everything is ready and the person just needs show up and talk. They said they were going to try to use USC more. I encouraged them to make a niusance of themselves to get this to work.
Here I am with the pastor and some of the young ones:
Truth be told, the young person turnout could have been a lot better. The pastor was confused about this, but thinks that the message about what exactly this was to be did not really get to the schools. I offered to come out and do it again if they wanted to have another go at getting more kids.
One thing I talked about (more than I intended to, but that’s where the spur of the moment took me) is something that really bothers me a lot. When I go to the parks and the nearby mountains to hike, where are the black people? When I go to the museums, where are the black people? Etc., etc. Why are they not using the resources of the city as much as other groups? Do they not know that they are “allowed to”? That they have just as much a right to do so? There was much nodding and shaking of heads, in acknowledgement of what I was saying. I talked about the discoveries that had been made up Mount Wilson, for example. Nobody knew that you could hike up there, which was remarkable. (On the other hand, I must say here from my encounters around the city that most people -of any ethnic or racial group- don’t seem to know anything about the role of the telescopes up there in the history of our understanding of our universe.)
I used this as a lead in to the conversation about science. Why are black people not participating in it in numbers, like everyone else? Do they not know that they are “allowed to”? That they have just as much a right to do so? I explained why it is so important to take part in the greater society by doing so. Etc., etc. I won’t go on, since I’ve had this discussion here a lot here (see these links, for example: here and here), but you see where I was going with this, I hope…. I ended up giving directions to the trailhead to Mount Wilson, and explaining about the wonderful stuff that’s going to be in the new Griffith Park observatory, and there was some conversation about church trips to see the telescopes…. so look out Sierra Madre, there might be some new faces in your ‘hood!
Having started at 11:30, and finished at 2:00 or so, we went straight to lunch (to which they wanted to treat me), which -puzzlingly- was held over in Manhattan Beach, so we drove over there to a big seafood restaurant. By now I was exhausted already (early start…… huge seven hour hike the day before…..wild book party the night before….) but we had a great time. And a long time….turned out I did not leave there until 5:30pm. Here some of us are at lunch (which was excellent):
Lunch was excellent not just because of the food, but because of the breadth, depth and scope of the conversation. We went into several interesting topics, from video games and virtual reality, revealed truth vs the autonomy of humans to investigate the universe themselves, through extra-terrestrial life to artificial intelligence. It was simply great!
This should be repeated. If you’re at USC and want to get involved, let me know. I can help arrange a talk, or we can just talk about things already being done at USC in terms of science/neighbourhood outreach, and how it can be supplemented or expanded. Sounds to me like there’s people who have and want to give who are not talking to people who need. We might change some lives -maybe even a whole community- with a few phone calls here.
…now I’m going to veg and watch a movie. What a weekend….I’m wrecked.
-cvj
April 30th, 2006 at 11:01 pm
That’s great news, Clifford! Glad to hear you’ve converted to Christianity! What church have you joined?
Peace, brother,
Rick
April 30th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
Rick… I have not converted to or from anything. See the first linked post.
I simply spoke about science in a church, where there are a lot of people willing to listen. To be interested in doing something to get more involvement of minorities in science and *not* talk to church communities is simply bad planning, imho.
Thanks.
-cvj
April 30th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
Excellent Clifford, sounds like a lot of fun for everyone involved.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
Sounds like a great experience Clifford! Let me know if they ever have a need for a chemist-turned-patent attorney and I’ll visit your congregation with you. (Well, turning-attorney, to be truthful.)
Did I tell you that after I turn attorney, I’m moving back to Pasadena?
April 30th, 2006 at 11:59 pm
Pasadena will be over the moon, I’m sure.
The community would probably like to hear from you…..I’ll give them your contact details. Seriously.
-cvj
May 1st, 2006 at 12:12 am
That’s really cool! I’m glad it went so well.
May 1st, 2006 at 1:27 am
I’m really glad to hear how well this event went. I hope they are able to find many more people willing to come and talk, and follow up on your suggestion to contact USC and other places.
I have found many people in my department (and other departments) love to talk about what they are doing, they are enthusiastic and passionate about their work and would want to share their knowledge with pretty much anyone who was interested. I wish more of the public knew how happy many scientists would feel to be able to talk to a group like this.
May 1st, 2006 at 2:08 am
Interesting post, Clifford. “Where are the black people” at place x is indeed a disturbing question, and one that I myself have asked many a time. An easy answer is that many blacks are poor and uneducated (won’t get in to postulating reasons for this) and therefore less likely to know about or appreciate more “cultural” things. But I think it goes deeper than that. Even perfectly well-to-do, middle-class blacks seem to have a tendency to avoid doing “white” things. I think it’s an impulse ingrained in from a long history of exclusion from those things. For most of US history, african-americans weren’t allowed to participate in mainstream culture. Their reaction to this was heroic: they invented their own culture. And the complexity and originality of what they came up with (I’m thinking jazz etc here) was such a staggaring achievement that they rightfully became very proud of it. But unfortunately I think that today that pride has translated in to an unhealthy rejection of mainstream culture (”we don’t need that stuff; we have our own culture; we’re not going to take it now that you finally decided it’s okay”). I think they’re rightfully pissed off about the long history of exclusion, but need to get over it so they can start living in, enjoying more, and further enriching this society.
That’s why I’m so glad you do this sort of thing, Clifford. A guy like me can talk all he wants, but a black person can go out and really make change. Because they’ll really listen to you. Please keep this up and keep blogging!
disclimer: my wild generalizing theories about “blacks” are obviously not the whole truth of this very complicated situation (if they are even partially true). They are just just my suggestive ideas for what may have played a role.
May 1st, 2006 at 2:27 am
It’s a wonderful, what you were doing Clifford.
I hope people do get out and experience some of your cities local activities.
May 1st, 2006 at 2:34 am
Hi,
Sam Gralla (and others) Please go through the discussion on the two other threads I refer to in the main post (Black Scientists, and Black Middle Classes), since there’s been a lot of discussion there that I don’t want to repeat again.
Sam Gralla, a part of your argument is running close to the lines of “education is not part of black culture” sort, which a well known village idiot concluded in one of those earlier comment threads. I’m pretty sure that is not what you mean, but I just thought I’d head that off at the pass.
Thanks for the thoughts.
By the way. I do not agree with the thing about me being black so they’ll listen to me. It is a cop out that so many use to do nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. Everybody who gives a damn about society can get up and contribute in several ways. Regardless of their race.
Cheers,
-cvj
May 1st, 2006 at 6:37 am
Nice work Clifford, sounds like you’ve made a real difference.
May 1st, 2006 at 7:30 am
Good one!
May 1st, 2006 at 10:39 am
Hi Clifford,
I’m surprised at your negative reaction. I was just throwing out some ideas. Everything on these comment threads has become so combative. Things were much better during the early history of the blog. Oh well–I guess this is just a symptom of the internet. I’m sure I’ve played my own role in it too.
Regarding the efficacy of whites doing outreach in black neighborhoods: all I’ll say is I formed the impression that it is pretty much useless through six years of thinking about these issues as I interacted with blacks on a daily basis at a secondary school with more black students than whites. So, if I’m mistaken, at least I formed my mistaken conclusion in the correct manner–through actual interaction with young black culture. Unlike many other whites with opinions on race relations, who just sit around and think about blacks.
But let’s not argue; that was never my intention and if this thread is going to turn in to a personal war we should just cut it off. The point is to understand how to improve race relations, not point fingers. I thought I was paying you a complement when I wrote that =/
May 1st, 2006 at 10:51 am
Sam Gralla…. Why are you taking what I say to be negative? I don’t get it. I appreciated your comment, as I thought I said. To disagree on some aspects of an approach is ok, is it not? That’s all I did. I hope I don’t have to sprinkle in smiley faces in everything I write. Sorry if you misunderstood.
Please give me the benefit of the doubt here. Sure, my last paragraph was worded a little strongly, but it was not aimed at you in particular. Just the general “I don’t want to get involved” sentiment that is quite common. I’m not pointing fingers, and I’ve no idea what personal war you could mean. I want to discuss the subject of the post. Let’s do that.
Thanks again for you comments.
Cheers,
-cvj
May 1st, 2006 at 10:58 am
Sam Gralla…. Actually, I’d like to understnad what you say a bit more. What is your evidence that your attempts at outreach in a black community failed because you were white? Could you say some more about this? Are you 100% sure this was the reason? Were there other factors that could also have contributed?
And even if that were proven to be the case, do you think that is it reason for others not to try? Please share your thoughts on this. (And please don’t interpret my asking a slightly tougher question as hostility. I just want to know.)
Thanks,
-cvj
May 1st, 2006 at 1:10 pm
Cliff, you’re doing such a great job with this that we’ve decided to make you the infidel’s ambassador to Islam…
P.S… pack your flack-jacket.
May 1st, 2006 at 3:21 pm
In the last four or five years i have been greatly heartened by the appearance of more and more people of color (across the broad spectrum) in the jamband hippy music festival realms. It has long been the province of white folk, but the efforts of bands like the A. Howard & the K23 Orchestra, Robert Randolph Family/Band, Karl Denison’s tiny Universe, and others, to step in where the aging Nevilles, etc., have been (post Jimi), helps immeasureably with encouraging a larger tapestry of community and culture.
On this day to Blog for inclusion of those with disabilities, reaching out to all communities that have not been fully embraced is hugely important. Thank you for making these steps for the scientific commu
May 1st, 2006 at 4:02 pm
sounds fantastic!
May 1st, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Religions interaction with society is hard to generalize since it changes so much with region. It is wonderful that you have been able to do what you have done, and I applaud community oriented religion. However, we cannot assume (not that you have) that all churches will respond in the same manner. One really needs to be careful because I know of people who have gotten in similiar situations (me for example! though not leading sermon), and the purpose of their presense was for a member of the church to drill them on how the laws of thermodynamics prove the existence of God or how believing in neutrinos is like believing in God, to give two examples. I guess God also interacts mainly through the weak force?
It is wonderful that you have found a community which wants to teach people about opportunities in science, but there will always be people, like on the Kansas school board, who view science (and math!) as a threat to their beliefs. They are always on the offensive and they aren’t few in numbers.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:01 pm
I don’t mean to be alarmist either. I am just brainstorming that for every good experience like yours there are bad experiences.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Chris Tunnell:- Thanks.
We were discussing science, and careers in science. We were not discussing God. That is not what I came to talk about. They talk to other people about God. Not me. I don’t do research in that area. They know that, and they know that I have no interest in talking about anything other than what I agreed to talk about, which was science, and science careers.
It is just need not be as complicated as all that. They want their kids to have careers in a wide range of areas. They want to know what’s out there. That’s all. We can sit around and second guess whether thy have an agenda or not, or we could just give up an hour or two of our time and tell them a little bit about science. It won’t sit well with everybody, but who cares? You interest one young person into pursuing a career in science and it is all worth it.
And there is no need to generalize. Talk to which church group wants to have a conversation, and don’t talk to those who don’t. Simple. Let us not assume that people don’t want to have a conversation, though.
Thanks,
-cvj
May 1st, 2006 at 5:47 pm
This is great, Clifford. This is something I think I’ll love to do (for my fiancee’s congregation perhaps) one day, when I am famous enough
.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Clifford,
Well done! An excellent job of evangelizing and spreading the Gospel of Science. Who knows what seeds you may have planted?
May 2nd, 2006 at 12:40 am
I kinda agree with Sam, it is somewhat true that they *manifestly* shun typical forms of education on a cultural level.
For instance if you walk into a Barnes and Nobles (particularly in noncollege towns) you will find far less than the 10% of the population that you would naively expect there to be.
Its not to say African Americans don’t read, but rather they (generalization) do so in a way that is either hidden (eg passed down) or community specific (say a local bookstore and not a big chain like Barnes and Noble)
I have no idea why this is, but I think it would be backed up by numbers if it came down to it.
May 2nd, 2006 at 1:21 am
I’m puzzled by this. Your third paragraph seems to be not quite in agreement with your first two. The first two say that the African American community shuns typical forms of education (note: I’m not sure what “typical” means). The third allows that they might use different sources from the ones you visit.
Tell me more…is this anecdotal evidence based on your observation, or some more careful study? Were there factors that might be affecting taken into account, such as what part of town the bookstore was in….what other bookstores were in town? Etc. I know an awful lot of well read African American people. And I find them in bookstores in a reasonable frequency relative to the rest of the population, if memory serves. They might not have read many of the things I’ve read, but that is because I’m coming from a different culture and tradition and so have read different things, not because they aren’t interested in reading. I note that I might not have read the things they’ve read. I don’t think that they conclude that I am shunning education because I have not consulted the same sources.
Also, all those doctors, lawyers, teachers, poets, novellists, journalists, writers, etc, careers which are not unusual in the African American community….. did they learn their craft by not reading? I think there’s a difference between not choosing science as a career -and perhaps not reading enough science as a kid, etc- and the issue of unsatisfactory education in deprived communities, which is a broader although not unrelated problem.
So I repeat. I’m puzzled by your conclusion. Help me here by expanding further on your point. To conclude that not getting an education is a cultural choice by African Americans is rather odd, at best, when there are so many other less far-fetched explanations right there for the taking.
Cheers,
-cvj
May 2nd, 2006 at 1:00 pm
Hi Clifford,
I must have overreacted–sorry for the misunderstanding. I’ll write more about what I think and where I formed my opinions when I get a chance tonight or the next night.
-Sam
May 3rd, 2006 at 7:45 am
Its anecdotal evidence really, and the fact that I lived in a predominantly African American suburb at one time and used to go to the public libraries a lot. Despite the heavy 60% AA population, it was mostly other groups that chose to go there. So much so that it was hard not to notice.
That was just my observations, and I have to explain them somehow.
Anyway, obviously tons of AA’s are extremely literate and many proffesions require reading, so one wonders where they get their books from. After further review I found a few more local bookstores (smaller and run by AA’s) that seemed to attract a much larger percentage.
The point was, its kinda a clumping phenomenon. The presence of a sizable percentage of AA’s seemed to just attract more, whereas the lack thereof seemed perhaps threatening, leading to an all or nothing situation.
Now the obvious concern is: the clumping phenomenona is independant of the worth of the bookstore/museum/education etc. Aren’t people ultimately shooting themselves in the foot by not taking advantage of the best possible situation, rather than the place that feels most safe.
May 3rd, 2006 at 7:47 am
I should point out, that when I said ’shun traditional forms of education’ I really meant ‘places of education’, at least the apparent ones.
May 3rd, 2006 at 8:29 am
That sounds like wicked fun, Cliff.
–IP.
May 3rd, 2006 at 9:56 am
Haelfix (#27)…Yes…. in your last paragraph of comment #27 I agree with you. This is what I was talking about before. Why are African Americans not taking advantage of all those things in the city they are paying their taxes for….etc., etc. A lot of it is simply not feeling comfortable where it is perceived by other people “they don’t belong”. I know that feeling very much from my own earlier experiences. It is powerful. The cycle has to be broken.
It has nothing to do with “a culture of not being interested in education”. That is ridiculous, and is what I wanted to make clear in my ealrlier comments.
-cvj
May 3rd, 2006 at 11:43 pm
One time i asked a friend of mine to join the ski club with me, and he told me, i mean, this is dead serious, “black people dont ski man” i nearly laughed in his face till i realised he was serious. Then i asked him “your kidding right? seriously, snowboarding is sweet, i can teach you myself”
we debated, we got angry, and he doesnt snowboard with me. its sad, really really sad.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:37 am
Clifford,
This was awesome. I hope the church takes your advice and continues and expands this program.
This echoes to some extent a conversation My wife and I had last weekend. We attended a Charleston Symphony Orchestra pops concert at a local Baptist church which has a mostly black congregation. It was a shame that the turnout was so sparse. First, other than most of the musicians and ourselves, there were few white people. We wondered if people stayed away because it was a “black” church. That would be a shame.
There also was not that many black people, either, especially considering the size of the congregation. We wondered if some people felt the symphony was part of the white culture and that blacks were not welcome. That would also be a shame.
Back to science, I think part of the problem is the way society decides who should be role models. This is a problem all across society, but it may have a larger impact on young blacks. Athletes are raised to hero status while scientists are forgotten.
More emphasis should be placed on letting youngsters know about such great people as Benjamin Banneker, Rebecca Cole, George Washington Carver and Dr. Arthur Bertram Cuthbert Walker II. How about Dr. Mae Jemison (whom I admire not just for her pioneering work in space but also because she was a guest star on Star Trek; the Next Generation. How cool is that?). How about Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, the youngest director in the long history of the Hayden Planetarium (another personal hero of mine)?
OK, off the soapbox. That long comment was really just to say, “Way to go!” Keep up the great work.
June 6th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
[...] Since today, 6/6/06, is (granted some typographical latitude) International Number of the Beast Day, I should tell you about my visit on Sunday to the Augustana Lutheran Church near the University of Chicago. (Not to disparage my kind hosts, but I have to say that sacred architecture really took a turn for the worse after the Reformation; give me those Gothic cathedrals any day.) I was invited by Shane Caldwell, a student in my cosmology class, to speak to a group that meets to talk about science and religion. Of course, my take on the matter is that science and religion are in stark conflict. But they understood where I was coming from, and were interested in hearing my spiel on cosmology and atheism. (All practiced academics understand that it’s important to have a small number of spiels that can be adapted to multiple circumstances at the drop of a hat; mine was rather different than Clifford’s.) [...]
October 16th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
[...] I laughed, I’ll admit. I find his fresh-faced and cheerful style quite funny at times. But then I got thinking. I can’t decide whether I should be depressed at the potency of the stereotypes he is playing with, or just carry on giggling. For example, why did the guys who were representing the complete opposite of being nerdy (and into science, reading, and the like) have to be cast as black? Worse than that (or at least equally as bad) is that fact that not one of his friends (on the chess team, or at the Renaissance fair, or other apparently nerdy activities, is black). In fact, the only thing that the white people and the black people in the video have in common is bowling, apparently. This really does not help at all, but he’s not to shoulder the whole blame of course – he’s merely reflecting the prevailing biases of the culture at large. Images all around implicitly and sometimes explicitly tell young black kids that science is not for them. Either because they supposedly can’t do it very well, or because it is not part of their “culture”, or because it is just not “cool” (I’ve blogged about this before. See here and here for example, and the discussion threads that followed). So Al and his people toed the line in trying to make a funny video. Nobody is going to laugh as much if the main “cool” guys were white, or if the principal “nerd” was black. They’d just think it was unrealistic. But did it have to be so completely polarized? Could there not be one “cool” guy who was white, and one “nerd” who was black? Just in the background somewhere? Would it really have reduced the impact of the joke so much? Sigh. [...]
February 28th, 2007 at 2:12 am
[...] Of course, this is a very good thing overall (see earlier discussions here, here, and here -including the illuminating sometimes depressing discussion threads- (and more recently here, here and here, for example) about increasing the number of times that young people are made aware of a career choice that they can make that society, through the media, etc, tells them that they can’t make), and I’m very willing to help where I can. [...]