Here’s a candidate for the next round of the Darwin Awards (courtesy of today’s edition of What’s New by Bob Park)
According to a Reuters story out of Kiev, on Sunday evening when the zoo was crowded with visitors, a man lowered himself by rope into the lion enclosure and walked up to the lions shouting,”God will save me if he exists,” thus proving himself to be a man of faith. Without hesitation, a lioness severed his carotid artery.
Keep in mind that the spirit of the Darwin Awards is to salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it. I can’t think of a more appropriate nominee.
PS: The subject of this post is named Ogtay Mahmudov and it is clear that he led a tragic life, right down to the circumstances of his death. I certainly meant no disrespect to Mr. Mahmudov in writing this post. The number of people on this planet who lead sad, troubled, tortured or tragic lives is certainly astromonical. If we can’t keep some sort of perspective, or sense of humor, or poke some fun, then how do we cope without going mad ourselves?
June 9th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
Note that this actually proves that God exists. Normally, if the person were a truth-teller, then it would mean that God did not exist, because She did not save him. But because the person is a dead loser, he must also be a liar, so the sentence “therefore God does not exist” must be false.
June 9th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
This experiment does not have good enough statistics to prove or disprove god’s existence with any significant confidence. The experiment needs to be repeated several thousand times, preferably with believers in each of the major religions so that we know exactly which gods do or do not exist.
June 9th, 2006 at 9:48 pm
Dear JoAnne,
You are truly a sorry excuse for a human being. I’ll bet you get a big chuckle out of touring AIDS hospitals too. Somalia is another yuk fest of Dawinian fun - check that out.
June 9th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Dear Lubos,
With your dazzling vision of logic, I can finally rest assure that God exist. With utter bliss, I can marvel at the Lord Darwin - the great Savior of the Universe. With unrestrained joy, I can relish the Scriptures of Darwin on a more Sacred-Front!
With Reckless Sincerity,
Cynthia
June 9th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
Problem is, faith is not determined by genes - not according to science, anyway.
June 10th, 2006 at 12:12 am
Hack: Now, that’s great idea! Let’s throw the different religions to the lions (in a controlled laboratory environment, of course, so that the condition of the lion’s appetite was held constant in each case) and see if any are preferred as much as they ALL advertise!
CapitalistImperialistPig: It’s clear you are an internet troll intent on stirring up trouble. It’s also clear that you don’t know the slightest thing about me - otherwise your comment would have been unthinkable.
June 10th, 2006 at 6:28 am
‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ - Christ
Certain theoretical physicists profit richly from this highly sensible advice.
June 10th, 2006 at 6:31 am
When people die, it’s tragic. When people die Monthy Python style, it’s funny.
June 10th, 2006 at 7:34 am
I was in Zambia for the ‘01 solar eclipse, & my 4×4 tour guide told me the following “Darwin Awards” story:
“3 visitors went to Mana Pools Park (Zambia). They were told specifically NOT to go alone, because of the dangerous animals: lions, hyenas, hippos [ they account for most of the deaths in Africa by wild animals, they are quick & if you are caught between them & a river..”you’ve had it..SERIOUS” ], rhinos [ nasty disposition ], crocodiles [ “they will JUMP on you”..if you get too close to a river bank, a lurking croc will come out of nowhere to ambush you ]:
‘If you are along in the Bush, you will be Eaten. If you are alone in the City, you will be Robbed”
– a S. African local told me, when I proposed a lone-expedition to Zambia
Anyway, so these clowns went ahead & ignored Local Knowledge & camped out by themselves. Well..sure enough they got eaten by Lions! The only thing left, that were found by the rangers, were THREE HEADS! I guess even the lions found their lack of brains “distasteful” Heh. Just imagine what it was like for these poor saps, when they were being torn-to-shreds by a pack of hungry lions. NOT PRETTY. There’s a well known phrase frp, Evolution, called “Top of the Foodchain”. Yep, them lions, crocs are the Top of the Foodchain in Africa, REMEMBER THAT..so you come back alive!”
There’s that famous quote (1 of my favorite ones):
“Stupidity is it’s Own Reward”
“The best thing to do for a FOOL, is to LET HIM HAVE WHAT HE WANTS”
“Be CAREFUL of what you WANT..YOU JUST MIGHT GET IT!”
PS
I had my own brush with Darwinism in Botswana (Chobe National Park), I DARED to go Astronomy observing out next to the Zambezi river at night. My guide did NOT like this idea, he relented & did let me setup next to his Toyota Landcruiser (to jump in if some lions showed up) on the beach. Well, I ended up falling asleep in the chair! This was in an area, where lions had just finished a kill..Cape Buffalo (see here, check out the croc eating the lioness & lions eating the cape buffalo). Given that lions were in the area (we found tracks the morning after, when we left), I could easily have been dead-meat! (lions do most of their hunting at night, this is generally not well known). Next morning, I heard hyenas howling at sunrise..so these guys were around. I also heard “fluttering” noises next to the water. Later on, somebody told me:
“that’s a male crocodiles doing a mating dance for females”
Yeah, I could easily have been deadmeat for a croc who wanted a late-night snack!
My tour-guide operator Shiloh was REALLY UNHAPPY with me, & vowed never to allow a client do this again!
Another tidbit from my tour w/Shiloh. Something dropped out of the LC, as it was moving. I dang nearly hopped out of the 4×4, & walked over 15 ft to get it. Shiloh ordered me to stop, & I asked why? Because, there could have been a lion lurking around a bush & I would have gotten “whacked”. It’s THAT kind of Safety Mode one has to be in, when you’re in Africa.
Just ask CVJ about Africa & it’s dangers (he has an Outreach conference in S. Africa). When I went to S. Africa in ‘02, I got further data-points on being in safety-mode (going thru Kruger Nat’l Park). Like stories of Mozambique refugees trying to cross the border to S. Africa (due to floods), & getting eaten by lions.
June 10th, 2006 at 8:05 am
This is pretty funny stuff:
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/atplay/dumbpeople.jsp
Dumb Diet:
A Florida man ate beans and cabbage, then fell asleep in a poorly ventilated room. While snoozing, he emitted a large amount of methane,
which he then inhaled. The concentrated cloud of toxic gas killed him. Para
medics who removed the body also had to be treat at the local hospital.
Dumb Patriots:
give high school-0age boys decided to set off some fireworks for
the fourth ofJuly. HOwever, they chose a bery bad place to lanch them.
They didn’t know it, but they were on top of a 100,000-gallon fuel-distillation tank. Flames from the fireworks ignited the fume, blowing the kids
to pieces & scatter their remains over 250 yards away.
Dumb Drunk:
a man in north dakota died when his friend shot him in the face while the two were attempting to shoot beer cans off each other’s heads with a .22-caliber rifle. Incidentally, both of the men were under the influence of alchohol
Dumb Dead Man:
a colorado man accidentally shot himself to death when he attempted to answer his phone, which was lying on his nightstand along with a revolved. he picked the gun up by mistake and put it to his head, where it discharged, killing him.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!..this is about has BAD as it gets. It gives the phrase “Killer Technology” a whole new meaning..
And, of course we have:
George Bush:
The Iraq situation can be summarized by the following quote:
“He who lies down with Dog [ a sleepy Banana Republic run by Saddam Hussein, not hurting anyone.. sactions were working ], Rises up with Fleas [ America is bankrupting itself, depleting it’s Economic & Military reserves..thereby putting itself in a vulnerable position ]”
– Herman Munster, from the TV show “The Munsters”
“If you sh*t on the Road, you will see flies on your return”
– S. African proverb
Unfortunately, as American citizens (I’m REALLY beginning to contemplate forfeiting it, & bugging out to say..Canada or Mexico) we are part of this mess. I dang nearly got blown up in Dahab/Egypt (on Red Sea, across from Saudi Arabia, the origin of so-called 9-11 “terrorists”..more like they were freedom-fighters) back in March. A few weeks after I left, I saw a CNN article which spoke of “body parts blown into the water” at a restaurant..I was RIGHT THERE (see Dahab panorama), eating breakfast & hanging with the Egyptian local kids. Good times, one of my best memories. Hope they weren’t caught up in the insanity.
Because of GWB’s (AND, that phony/poser who passes herself off as Condoleeza Rice, a disgrace to African Americans, women, Academics, Stanford Univ) irresponsible/immature actions that supposedly was termed “Foreign Policy”, ALL of us Americans are now put into Harms’ Way. My Egypt guide told me the Egyptian Authorities put restrictions on me, NOT because they were afraid of me as an American, but because they wanted to PROTECT me from insurgents..I was a potential target (lots of unhappy people in Middle East about America, don’t blame them). Dang, I had police guys in an armored pickup-truck guarding me w/machine-gun, 50 ft from where I observed the March 29 solar-eclipse! (Libya/Egypt border).
A useful note, if any CV readers venture to the Middle East: be on guard.
June 10th, 2006 at 8:33 am
God did save the man! The man would have died anyway, perhaps of cancer, hearth failure, brain tumor, Alzheimer’s… God saved the man by using the lion to euthanize him.
June 10th, 2006 at 9:29 am
Pk,
I agree with your overall assessment that the concept of the Darwin Award is amusing only on a virtual level. In contrast, tying real-life tragedies with the Darwin Awards can be interpreted as an expression of heartlessness and cruelty.
Have a Nice Day!
June 10th, 2006 at 10:05 am
” I can’t think of a more appropriate nominee”. Actually, perhaps this person had bipolar disorder or some mental illness and needed help. I personally know of a few brilliant people who removed themselves from the ‘gene pool’ too. I also think a lot of people simply have absolutely no grasp of their mortality and fragility. Even if someone gets themselves killed in a totally stupid or ‘Pythonesque’ way their families still have to suffer the grief, with the nature of the death probably making it worse for them. A human being, even an utterly stupid one, is still much more than an ensemble of genes. So I tend to agree with Cynthia’s last post.
June 10th, 2006 at 11:36 am
Another fresh candidate could be al-Zarqawi. That guy apparently thought that cutting the throat of thousands of people would have no consequences for him, and to make his stupidity even more manifest, he “hid” himself in a house that was separated from the skies and from the US airplanes by a transparent layer of air only - not even concrete blocks - in a forest where no other house would be destroyed which eliminated any problems in killing him. So the Pentagon lionness sent him twice a 500-pound gift. Not even al-Gore would do such a thing.
June 10th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Violence is the last resort of the incompetent….
Foundation Trilogy I Asimov
June 10th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
JoAnne,
I hope I do not ruin the entertainment value with a few facts.
The man was Ogtay Mahmudov who migrated to Kiev due to the
war in Aserbaidshan. He was treated in a mental hospital after his
wife left him following his bankruptcy.
Visitors could have probably saved him, “but they did not do it as
if they did not want to interrupt ‘the show’”, according to a press report
in the local media.
I think we have entered a new golden age of humanity and people with old fashioned values, like CIP, should not spoil the fun for others.
I am looking forward to read more stories from you.
June 10th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
wolfgang, you have a point but smugness is not a quality that is generally appreciated.
June 10th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
Wolfgang,
It appears you made an error in transpositioning… The underlying insensitivity of this particular Darwin Award represents “old fashion values.” From the opposite angle, CIP’s perspective represents “the new golden-age of humanity.”
June 10th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Wolfgang,
Are there any links that you can supply that mention reports that people could have helped, but did not want to? I know you said local media reported this, but I was wondering if anyone else has picked up on these facts. None of the news stores I have read about this have mentioned anything at all like this, or any information about the man other than the fact he was of Azerbaijani origin.
June 10th, 2006 at 1:53 pm
The sanctimoniousness is getting a little stifling in here. I do wonder why some of you folks waste your time with we cold-hearted monsters here at CV, rather than frequenting more warm and sympathetic blogs. I might suspect that you actually enjoy turning a joke into an occasion for displaying your own moral superiority, but that would be miserly and ungenerous of me.
June 10th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
sean correction — “self percieved moral superiority”.
And Lubos….Is Summers finally out the door yet???? Did you help him pack and carry stuff to his car for him?
June 10th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
Sean - don’t discourage them! Eventually they will have their heads so far up their nether-regions they will suffocate, and them we can laugh at them too.
Besides, displays of “moral superiority” are self-defeating.
June 10th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
One man’s joke is another man’s tragedy, just as one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
June 10th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
Hey, the Darwin Awards are about removing inferior genes from the pool.
Even if the man was mentally ill, doesn’t that still qualify? Hm?
June 10th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Here’s a motif for a story.. (Darwin, Death Valley).
June 10th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
If we can’t laugh about death, what can we laugh about?
June 10th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
life?
June 10th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
Well… If the man came from Aserbaidshan, went banckrupt, his wife left him and nobody care to save him, God did save him from his brothers!
June 10th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Perhaps my heart bleeds too much for the mentally ill members of society… Perhaps my heart bleeds too much for all disenfranchised members of society… I will say no more and stop here.
June 10th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
I am reading this post and the following comments with horror:
First, as a non-believer, from generations of non-believers, I was nonetheless taught to have respect for the faith of others.
Second, when did it become sanctimonious or smug to point out that it is unkind to laugh at the death of someone obviously mentally ill?
This is a low point for Cosmic Variance.
June 10th, 2006 at 4:47 pm
Sean,
do not worry. The moral superiority is with you and your readers.
Travis,
the story is old enough that you can google it; The quote was from the Azeri Press.
June 10th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
To All: It is clear that Ogtay Mahmudov led a tragic life, right down to the circumstances of his death. The number of people on this planet who lead sad, troubled, tortured or tragic lives is certainly astromonical. If we can’t keep some sort of perspective, or sense of humor, then how do we cope without going mad ourselves?
I meant no disrespect to Mr. Mahmudov in writing this post. It’s just that the circumstances of his death are a bit out of the ordinary and could be straight out of a Monty Python sketch. I’m sorry, I admit to being human, and I think it’s okay to have a small chuckle. Death is part of life, and sometimes we just have to laugh at life in order to make it through.
And, BTW, the news article I read said that the audience DID try to help by attempting to distract the lioness. It seems they did what they could, stopping short of jumping into the lion’s den themselves.
June 10th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
I am reminded of an episode from one of my favorite TV shows: The Mary Tyler Moore show (from the 1970’s), Chuckles Bites the Dust. In this episode, WJM-TV’s children’s show host, Chuckles the clown, is killed by a rogue elephant during a parade. He was dressed as a peanut. WJM’s newsroom characters are making jokes right & left about the circumstances of his death and sensitive, righteous Mary Richards tells them off. But then at his funeral, it is Mary that starts to giggle, tries to hold it in, and ends up laughing uncontrollably. The episode is very human, and extremely funny.
June 10th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
JoAnne,
well said and well done. Thank you.
June 10th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Well, I do understand what you mean Joanne–sometimes you just can’t help but laugh even when you should’nt. I heard the following story in the 90s concerning a dead German man, which I thought was a joke but which turned out to be for real. I tracked it down here:
http://www.goofball.com/news/991228_deadman
He paid all his bills by direct debit apparantly and that’s why his Christmas tree was still flashing on and off.
June 10th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
JoAnne - Monty Pythonesque it is.
June 11th, 2006 at 12:18 am
Reminds me of the time when a stranger came to the monastery, burst into the dining hall and yelled at the top of his lungs, “Nothing will happen if nothingness exists.” With that he was pelted by a dozen biscuits.
June 11th, 2006 at 1:44 am
The comments could have gone further and discussed the role of the mentally ill person in society. Can one be so sure that a mentally ill person is not a valuable person in the gene pool? It seems sure that Ogtay Mahmudov did not want to be a part of it, but one could argue that many other mental ill people do and want and they have a perfectly legitimate role in a society, especially since mental illness is “merely” based on a definition which has been agreed on by consensus by the psychiatrists of that society. Couldn’t a crazy person provide new insights, break boundaries in good ways, provide a diversity that would be healthy for a species? Note that mental illness covers a broad spectrum, and many are no danger to other individuals (they are difficult for their families though), but they would appreciate some help, and that’s why classification of their illness is important in the medical field. It’s a complex topic that reaches into all aspects of society and family life. I haven’t read this topic debated strongly lately, but it was in the past when R.D. Laing and Thomas Szasz proposed that mental illness does not exist. Some people might appear crazy to others in their environment, but in fact their minds are in perfect working condition.
Last week I was curious as to what altitude weather balloons fly, and when I googled the topic, I immediately ran into an amazing story of a 33-year-old Vietnam veteran and North Hollywood truck driver with no pilot or balloon training named Larry Walters, who, on 2 July 1982, took a flight over Los Angeles on his lawnchair that he lifted with the help of 45 helium-filled weather balloons. I was smiling and laughing at the sheer audacity of his actions. He was absolutely driven to take this “flight”, ran into trouble with the FAA afterwards (hilarious charges), he had fame but little fortune, and Larry’s difficulties/bad luck proved too much for him at the end and he killed himself. I was admiring his “I can do it” attitude and his kind of “craziness” and I was very sad when I read his demise. He was probably not mentally ill by the psychiatrists’ definition, but he was ‘crazy’ enough to break a few boundaries and his actions probably planted a few seeds in other individual’s minds about what is possible and not possible if you have your mind set strongly on achieving an unheard-of goal.
June 11th, 2006 at 2:12 am
He was probably not mentally ill by the psychiatrists’ definition, but he was ‘crazy’ enough to break a few boundaries and his actions probably planted a few seeds in other individual’s minds about what is possible and not possible if you have your mind set strongly on achieving an unheard-of goal.
Not to rain on the parade here, but if your big source of inspiration is this dude, instead of the zillions of other more remarkable people who accomplished much more remarkable things, then you’re probably not destined for greatness.
Having an “I can do it” attitude is not a virtue when the “it” that you’re trying to do is as misguided as Mr. Walters’s stunt. Sometimes, you shouldn’t “do it.”
June 11th, 2006 at 2:58 am
It’s a spectrum, isn’t it? The world is not that black-and-white, diversity at all levels are good and important. People can find their inspiration from many sources, no one can say for each person what and where are the triggers that push you into something valuable and new.
In general, I think almost any one can learn something valuable from anyone else if your mind is receptive and interested.
June 11th, 2006 at 4:00 am
If my world is black and white, yours is rose-colored. Not everyone is valuable to society; not everyone has good ideas; not everyone is an inspiration. Some people are a cut below the rest. Some people would serve the species well not to reproduce. This is a fundamental tenet of Darwinism.
June 11th, 2006 at 4:43 am
Darwin’s Evil Twin: I have no clue what your world is. Mine is definitely not rose-colored after all of my “lifetimes”, my last three years have added a cynical flavor to my worldview too.
I’ll try a second time to present my perspective: I have no knowledge or indeed “right” to say what another person might find as interesting or inspiring or useful; the variety of people and their interests/goals/dreams on this planet are enormous, as are the people who encounter them. And a person doesn’t need to be brilliant to offer something of value to another person, you can learn something useful from anyone.
Hearing a proclamation that ’some people are cut below the rest’ and ‘would serve the species well not to reproduce’ makes me cringe, to be honest. The negative high-sigma events’ that produce people who truly have no value falls on the rare side (but they are portrayed more in the news unfortunately).
June 11th, 2006 at 5:21 am
When the liver or kidneys do not function right, it manifests itself as a disease. The brain is a much more complicated organ, and it too can stop functioning properly. Sometimes it manifests itself as a disease, but other times the effects are purely mental. To say that mental illness is just a different perspective on life is to deny the people affected the proper care and attention they need.
June 11th, 2006 at 6:29 am
Yes, that’s why I think Laing and Szasz’s ideas are not taken seriously (that’s their perspective). I have a different perspective having a close family member with schizophrenia. In addition to proper care and attention, as a family member, you need large quantities of understanding and patience, some psychological mechanisms to insulate onself when necessary, and a good dose of humor helps too!
June 11th, 2006 at 7:31 am
Combining a couple of the above comments into a single synopsis:
There is a fine line between brilliance and insanity. More importantly, it should be the goal of civilized society to devise methods to rescue individuals, that are vacillating on this fine line, from falling towards the side of insanity without - simultaneously - destroying their brilliance.
June 11th, 2006 at 8:11 am
In one word, to summarize what’s been said:
Context.
To make fun of someone’s death is REALLY NOT COOL. Given the context of the situation, there was no joke. Period. The death of that ex-Princeton PhD (SLAC post-doc) allegedly due to a bipolar condition..funny?? I guess if he jumped in there after riding around crazily in a bike at strange hours, that might be considered a Darwin Award. “Context” tells you..not.
[ There are plenty of Science-haters who would make jokes about it, probably some science-challenged journalist. I bet CV readers would be outraged, including me. ]
It was most definitely a tragedy, all jokes are in poor taste. If it had happened..
“in a time of Need, you know who your REAL FRIENDS are”
[ translation: a REAL FRIEND will BACK YOU UP..especially if you’ve been disrespected ]
..and I were his friend, I would be looking for some “whoop ass” right about now on those jokesters.
[ continued ]
June 11th, 2006 at 8:23 am
To Darwin’s Evil Twin - “Fitness” in the Darwinian sense is not some absolute normative thing, it depends on the environment. We humans are quite adept at extending the boundaries of human fitness.
Second, heaven forbid that one of your children is a cut below the rest. Imagining the misery that you would inflict on him or her, I beseech you to not attempt to propagate your genes.
June 11th, 2006 at 10:09 am
Religion is so contradictory you don’t have to be certifiably insane to misunderstand what it is about.
This guy merely confused his religion for his logical scientific instinct to test out beliefs for himself.
Imagine a bunch of top theoretical physicists all going off the deep end and believing that God wrote the universe in the language of strings.
The only difference between the guy who was eaten and the mainstream is that he was prepared to check his beliefs.
As least he had a checkable theory…
June 11th, 2006 at 10:24 am
It’s hard to believe that this entire thread started out as an innocuous joke. Lighten up people! Get a grip on what the concept of ‘humour’ is (I’m Canadian…hence the spelling of humour!). Laughter is good for the soul. I’ve been classified as bipolar, and therefore am ‘officially’ mentally ill, but perhaps brilliant too, who knows? It gives me a warm, squishy feeling in my heart to know someone cares enough about me to label me like that. I thought it was hilarious! Not that the man died, of course, but the circumstances. That’s what makes it funny. Geez, a shot at relgion AND death in the same plot line. Good on ya! Oh yeah, I’m also a person of faith, and it’s strong enough to take a little criticism and a few good chuckles at its expense, I just don’t get my knickers in a knot over political correctness as much as others apparently do.
The only comment I’ll take personal exception to is #41 by Darwin’s Evil Twin. “Not everyone is valuable to society”. Two questions: Is it you who gets to decide? Is your middle name Adolf?
June 11th, 2006 at 10:55 am
Arun: To Darwin’s Evil Twin - “Fitness” in the Darwinian sense is not some absolute normative thing, it depends on the environment. We humans are quite adept at extending the boundaries of human fitness.
I didn’t say it was an absolute. We can extend the boundaries of fitness all we want, but unless we eliminate unfitness entirely, it will still exist, and what I said will continue to be true; there will just be fewer such people.
Second, heaven forbid that one of your children is a cut below the rest. Imagining the misery that you would inflict on him or her, I beseech you to not attempt to propagate your genes.
I am attempting to make a cold-hearted, purely Darwinian assessment here. In practice, razor-edged Darwinism is not morally desirable, which is why we don’t euthanize those with birth deformities or genetic diseases or mental retardation, for example. Nowhere did I suggest the global maltreatment of the lower ranks of our species. I’m merely oboserving that, from an evolutionary point of view, there are some people–i.e., a nonzero quantity–who would serve the gene pool well to leave it. I did not suggest that we attempt to find these people and enforce natural selection.
Rick: The only comment I’ll take personal exception to is #41 by Darwin’s Evil Twin. “Not everyone is valuable to society”. Two questions: Is it you who gets to decide? Is your middle name Adolf?
See my comment to Arun. I didn’t say anything about deciding who these people are; clearly, this is not possible or even desirable. I am not endorsing any kind of eugenics program. I am simply noting that there exist people–and I didn’t say how many–who are not valuable to society. Will you take the opposing position that EVERYONE is valuable to society? In fact, will any of you here (besides Amara, who clearly does)? Is EVERYONE valuable to society? If this is the consensus, then I’ll shut up.
June 11th, 2006 at 11:32 am
“besides Amara, who clearly does)?”
Everyone? No, I believe I said ‘negative high-sigma events’. I can think of some monsters in today’s world and in history who have no value. Perhaps we have different thresholds.
June 11th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Yes, I take the position that everyone is valuable to society. Besides, how did ’society’ get to be the litmus test for existence?
June 11th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
existence? I thought the discussion was about value.
June 11th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
But, Evil Darwin’s Twin, you don’t know what’s in the future. Maybe one of those whom you think fail the fitness test will be one of the few souls resistant to the next pandemic.
If nothing else, there is value to humankind of genetic diversity. Humanity’s Darwinian imperative is to keep as many variants propagating as possible. So, even by your “cold hearted Darwinian assessment” I think you are wrong.
June 11th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Surely, this person had some mental illness - and surely he needed help; maybe this story is more about a symptom of a failed psychiatric system in Ukraine.
There are - at least - two interesting moral questions here: how would YOU have helped him in this situation (and what if it was acutally your boyfriend)? And how should we judge this person (or persons) who filmed this “stunt”?
June 11th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
JoAnne, I do not know you, and I do get the joke, lol!
but: Darwinism & nazism, and survival of the fittest, or removal of a perceived “weaker gene pool” is fine, as long as you are not one of those perceived to be in the weaker gene pool by Facism, Apartheid, Racism, …
And not wanting to be brutal I repeat the question I always ask Darwinists, where does Hawking fit into the grand scheme of things, and do not flatter yourself by thinking that physicists are of the stronger gene pool, higher up the food chain, or any less expendable. A ruthless darwinian system could + would happily milk your abilities, and then recycle your electrons with the casual wave of a hand or stroke of a pen. Admittedly simply praying to a God may not save you from such a fate. But hey that is the ‘nature’ of things, and nature is cruel. One minute you are here and next minute you are gone. No point me saying “GBYE or God Be With You” ?
June 11th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
My comment was excessive. Those who have experienced the pain when a mentally ill person commits suicide might be a bit humor impaired on the subject. I probably attacked JoAnne more because I thought she was using this to promote her anti-religion. On the (logarithmic) sadism scale, this was only a 150 milli-Coulter event.
I apologize to those whose fun I spoiled.
JoAnne - It’s also clear that you don’t know the slightest thing about me - otherwise your comment would have been unthinkable.
True, but as the saying goes, on a blog, you are what you write.
June 11th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
PS - Being accused of sanctimony by Sean - now that’s funny!
June 11th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
I’m tempted to agree with Count Iblis.
Is forced euthanasia & capital punishment endorsed by Darwinists, as justified by nature’s obvious prejudices against the weaker or diseased gene pool. And who in the human version of Darwinist Utopia defines who should be removed, and who allowed to survive and/or procreate.
I recall there were a group of people who thought Darwinism justified irradiating to cause infertility and terminating (exterminating) another group of people.
Does Darwinism justify the extermination almost to extinction of native americans & buffalo by white Europeans. Then you can longer blame an ‘unjust’ god, or a perverse/corrupt religion. It’s the Nature of things. WOW - I guess that explains everything!
June 11th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Dear CIP,
my maternal grandmother was not mentally healthy and she committed suicide when I was a small kid, but I find neither Darwin’s awards nor JoAnne’s text nor Ann Coulter’s texts, for that matter, insulting in any way. Actually, the awards are amusing.
What is mental illness and what is not is a matter of definition. I did not know the person, and my guess is that neither did you. There are millions of people dying every year, and I am not sure whether all of us should be frustrated millions of times per year because of that, especially if the death is as funny as this one.
All the best
Lubos
June 11th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Interestingly, in several US-based news sources I read, the quote was given only as “God will save me”. Why would the rest of the sentence be left out, or am I just being paranoid?
June 11th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
Anon, just because they are out to get you, does not make you paranoid. The rest of the sentence “if he exists” would be courtesy of a skeptic, adding to the pun.
Lubos, love humour. As JoAnne says, “we need to keep some sort of perspective, sense of humour, or we’ll all go mad”. That of course presuposes we are not already mad. I’ll ask you all to keep that in mind next time any of your relatives or loved ones are being exterminated by people applying Darwinist Philosophy.
Was 9/11 Darwinian evolution, ie the theory that people working at the World Trade Centre were superfluous?
No, please don’t answer that one. I shan’t be able to disagree with your comments whether you agree or whether you are outraged by the suggestion.
Was the southeastasian Tsunami no more than Nature or Darwinist natural selection. Was the Pakistan earthquake no more than natural selection, are famines in Ethyopia no more than natural selection. Or are we supposed to be ‘conscious’ animals (animate beings) who can prevent and prepare for Natural phenomena, build sea defences, build earthquake proof housing cities. And no African famines are not natural disasters but man made (created) disasters. You may not like the concept, but in the back of the ‘Darwinists’ in the ‘white’ US Administration, there are still too many blacks in Africa, so what famine and AIDS reduce numbers; there are far too many Asians a few tsunamis just prevents having to nuke them. As for Pakistan - who cares? save the missiles for Iran.
Hope my comments are not taking such a small joke to its rather more subtle ‘natural’ or brutal conclusion. Speaking the unspeakeable, so to speak. lol!
June 11th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Q says:
I take it that you wipe your feet at the front door for the sole reason that the gradual build-up of dirt in your house will some day prevent you from entering it?
June 11th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
It takes so long. The teeth crunching horrifically into his neck, the taste of his own blood gushing into the back of his throat, the racing thoughts, the terrible dizzying mess of thoughts in his head, falling into the bottomless pit of doubt, the realization boiling in his gut, mixed with an inexplicable bliss that dances in his worthless body. And then the darkness, quickly.
And then he/she who was Ogtay Mahmudov opens his/her eyes again, all several million of them, and shudders. It was a hell of a way to go, although preferable to many of the alternatives. In fact He/She had died in the jaws of lions before, but those had all been in the early days, out in the warm night air of the savanna, including several times as a Homo erectus. Living out a randomly selected life from the early computer age (indeed, only a few dozen years away from a technological singularity), only to die in the same manner certainly added an interesting twist. He/She smiles and dives back into the simulation. Sure enough, many of the tiny little creatures in the code were chatting about his/her ignoble end. He/She ghostloads them, feeling their opinions crystallize at the synaptic level and seeing through their eyes as they type them into their simple computers. Amusingly enough, many of the wee darlings, while correctly deducing that there are no mystical gods, then erroneously go on to conclude that there is no life after death, despite in some cases simultaneously understanding that their conscious experiences are nothing more than the simple patterns formed by their neurons, and that the time evolution of quantum states is unitary! In a perverse streak, He/She hijacks one of the little people and posts the truth about what has happened on one of their weblogs, secure in knowledge that none of them will actually believe it.
He/She pops back out of the simulation again and sighs. He/She observes the eleven dimensional weather blowing outside his/her window. Ok, enough fooling around, time to get back to work.
June 11th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Hi. Today, there was a second collection at church for the poor and needy, but I forgot to bring some money. So tomorrow I will walk over to the church and give my donation. God will protect me from being run over, if He exists. And I live in Austin, Texas, where there are some pretty bad and inconsiderate drivers.
I will get back to you on my results.
Oh, and remember: You can get a book for free on Amazon by clicking on “Search Inside” and then searching for a word that occurs regularly in the book (such as ‘universe’ for this book, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594489149/103-9906933-7689424). To get the rest of the pages, just click on the left and right arrows.
Cheers.
June 11th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
Alternative comment (via fortune):
“It may well be that the purpose of your life is to serve as an example to others…”
June 11th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Excuse me. I actually meant “You can read a book on Amazon without ordering it.”
Pardon me.
June 11th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Arun: If nothing else, there is value to humankind of genetic diversity. Humanity’s Darwinian imperative is to keep as many variants propagating as possible.
What about the “selection” part of natural selection? Evolution proceeds because the strong survive and the weak perish. If every organism’s genes were always worth keeping, how would you get anywhere?
June 12th, 2006 at 12:31 am
Cosmic Variance seems to be about to eat itself. First Cliffords’s orgy of self congratulation and its equally unseemly curtailment, then an escalation of rather infantile ‘anti-God’ posts culminating in this misjudged attempt at levity. CVJ and SC have pointed out, rather putulantly, that those of us (who remember how cool Preposterous Universe was and are) disappointed by the current content should look elsewhere. In a way they are right; there is a horrid fascination attached to the decline of this blog though, rather like that of a mentally ill fellow human being dismembered by a lion. Get a grip guys - I’m with CIP all the way on this one.
June 12th, 2006 at 1:08 am
When discussing Darwinism, an important parameter is time. Evolutionary trends occur over hundreds of thousands and more years. Socially important phenonomena (education, contraception,…) occur over our human timescales. And while it is true that the human brain has increased over the last three million years, no one can say that it will continue, too many things need to happen for that increase. But if you do want bigger brains and a more intelligent species, then it seems to me that bootstrapping our species to survive better, such as giving the hungry and thirsty food and water, building shelter and roads, finding cures for diseases and a longer life, helping women to have more rights, creating cleaner and biologically diverse environments, increasing the scientific knowledge and technology to perform all of these tasks, along with one’s compassion, … are the right kinds of activities.
June 12th, 2006 at 3:03 am
Hi PK, yep!
That is why dormats were ‘invented’ created or made. In some households it is customary to also take of your shoes. This can be embarrassing though, if one has holes in one’s socks, or worse much much worse, if one has dirty & ’smelly’ feet.
June 12th, 2006 at 3:16 am
Is there anyone out there on the periphery can disprove the southeastasian tsunami was not caused by a man made underwater explosion?
Is there anyone out there on the periphery can disprove the kashmir earthquake was not caused by an aftershock of a man made explosion?
Is there anyone out there on the periphery can disprove that famines in Ethiopia are not caused by man made socio-political activity?
Is there anybody out there on the periphery that can disprove, no ONE can be on the periphery? -
Oh what the heck, is there anyone on the periphery? and does it matter, if or whether it is matter or not?
June 12th, 2006 at 3:39 am
Wow Amara, of all the meanings the sounds which make up your name have, starting with the first, always in the beginning …
you may want to add, in Spanish:
AMAR — the verb To Love
AMARA — (3rd person future) He/She/It will (SHALL) Love!
June 12th, 2006 at 6:56 am
JoAnne,
If death of mortal flesh, the body perishable is “proof” that there is no GOD
Then birth, rebirth + new birth, must be “proof” that there is a GOD
Birth precedes life, life precedes death, death precedes new life or rebirth + new birth. From the seed which grows into the earth sprout forth mighty trees.
As to the fate of those who do not believe or have no faith, well even in learning if you do not seek you do not expect to find, and when you do find it, how will you recognise what you have found is it. Love Q
June 12th, 2006 at 7:33 am
Darwin’s Evil Twin, the first corollary of the theory of evolution is that there is nowhere to get to (as in “how would you get anywhere?”). A successful trilobite species is as far along in the game as a successful hominid.
June 12th, 2006 at 8:17 am
Q #73: Thank you for the Spanish meanings. Since a baby I received many positive feedback about the different meanings of my name, until I moved to Italy, at which time my name became yet another obstacle to try to overcome. I made a web page of the meanings as a kind of defense, but I can learn something useful too. If I’m on a date and the Italian man says: “don’t you know the meaning of your name?”, then it is a hint that he might not travel out the country very much. [scusi’ for off-topic messaggio]
June 12th, 2006 at 8:47 am
Hi Amara, I know I’ve been to the page, that’s why I thought you might like to add the spanish one. Though i must say the equivalent to the “Holy Grail” from Buffy the Vampire Slayer is one hard to beat. If buffy is not available, hope I can call on you when dealing with demons. Incidentally not quite off topic when reading some of the above entries lol! laters … Q
June 12th, 2006 at 9:26 am
Well, yes, Arun, I didn’t mean to imply that there is an evolutionary objective for which the process is striving and toward which we are the best progress so far. My point was that the “selection” part of natural selection does involves rejection, through diminished ability to flourish in competition, of the weak.
It’s like the Olympics, where somebody is a winner and somebody is a loser. It’s not like the Special Olympics, where everybody is a winner.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:55 am
Success! I wasn’t run over! Therefore, God exists.
Oh wait! This all assumes that God will save the earthly lives of those who have faith in His existence! Darn it! Oh well.
Let’s move on to another post, shall we?
July 28th, 2006 at 12:34 am
What about intelligent design from the future? I mean if time travel is possible.