I haven’t had the time to type up the answer to yesterday’s quiz, so instead why not a World Cup open thread? It was pretty easy to discern the pattern in the quarterfinals, where Portugal beat England, Italy beat the Ukraine, France beat Brazil, and Germany beat Argentina — all of the Eurozone squads were victorious, while those nations still puttering along with their local currencies were left to go home and lick their wounds. Hooray for globalization!
But what is it that separates Les Bleus and the Azzurri, victorious in the semifinals, from their opponents? I mean, besides a bluish tinge, a strong wine tradition, almost identical flags, and amazing goals? (And being picked by me to lose?) Eventually it hit me: these were the countries that have been home to Popes! Sometimes simultaneously!
So what will happen in Sunday’s final? Italy has had more Popes, but France has been more of a leader in unifying Europe. A titanic struggle between the temporal and spiritual realms awaits. Allez les Bleus! Forza Italia! (I will, at the time, actually be in Italy, so I’m leaning slightly Forza over Allez, but I wouldn’t bet against that Zizou guy in his last professional game.)
July 7th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
I’ll probably get lambasted for this, but I believe there is a huge element of luck at this level. I believe this is partially due to the very low scoring. If you can “sneak one in” or accidentaly interfere to yield a penalty shot, the resulting one goal lead gives a huge advantage. If the average number of goals was say 3 or 4, this luck element would be somewhat mitigated. (Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about soccer, being your average American sports fan).
Prediction: >100 comments on this post.
Bob.
July 7th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
France wins 4-3 over Italy after exciting 90 minutes that also feature a missed penalty kick and numerous near-misses.
(Sorry, wrong decade…)
July 7th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
Well Poland has had a pope (only one, but the second-longest serving) and does not have the Euro. It didn’t make it out of the group games.
My money’s on France.
July 7th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
“Victory belongs to the most Persevering”
– Napoleon
Endurance plays a major factor, player conditioning & the ability to play a solid game (start to finish)..& under tournament conditions (successive games can be a real strain). Younger players have the energy, but older players have the experience.
Youthful Exuberance VS Experienced Veteran.
It’s a Complex System (lots of factors), like auto-racing..a Caltech Nonlinear Dynamics & Control professor has a writeup of it (one of his students ended up at Williams F1 team).
“The reward is in the Journey [ tournament play ]”
– John Wooden
[ "Wizard of Westwood", UCLA coach, multiple NCAA championships ]
Maybe France snuck up on everybody, not a lot of hoopla, but just played steady (”Steady as she goes”, is the naval-saying)..conserving their Energy. Whoola, they’re in the Championship Game. Italy maybe got in because of their feistiness.
I think A. Olinto mentioned something about Brazil (@SUSY ‘06 lecture), about how she was disappointed in their play. Classic symptoms of a let down for a superior-team. Just like how Russia got beat by Team USA in the famous ‘80 Winter Olympics (who they beat, like 10-1 in a pre-Olympics game), they had a letdown & USA “stole” the game.
A coach is just as much a psychologist, as well as a strategist. He is responsible for keeping the players mentally psyched, as well as physically prepared.
“The E-M-O-T-I-O-N, & the team which stays away from injuries in the playoffs”
– Barry Melrose, on NHL playoffs
When I think of Italy, I think of emotion..very expressive culture. My sister is a biochemistry prof in France, that country must be all excited.
July 7th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
It should be pointed out that the European Economic Community (EEC), that became the European Union, started with the signing of Treaty of Rome in 1957 by France, West Germany, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg.
If you’ll be in Italy during the World Cup Final, I’d suggest you not to shout Forza Italia since that’s the name of Berlusconi’s party. Now it’s politically correct to say Forza Azzurri instead.
July 7th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Forza Italia! Good work, Sean. We forget about physics and talk about Italia instead!
Uncle Enzo’s prediction:
Italy 1
France 0
Germany 2
Portugal 1
Italia kick ass! Forza Italia! Forza Italia!
Can I-a cut-a your hair sometime, Sean?
Forza!
July 7th, 2006 at 3:33 pm
Sure, but in order to “sneak one in” at this level it takes an enormous amount of talent, not luck.
Sean, be prepared for what might be the craziest place you’ve ever been to if they win! total pandemonuim…
July 7th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
italy will fake numerous injuries, as usual; intentionally attempt to injure opposing players, as usual; use chicanery to achieve a couple deciding free kicks, as usual; and ultimately win, and return to their country whose premier league is embroiled in fraud and racist fan tauntings, with the world cup whose theme was “fair play”.
July 7th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
quarkdoll is anti-Italian! He should be charged with hate crimes! Look at what he said! It’s a hate crime!
Forza Italia!
July 7th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
“Sure, but in order to “sneak one in” at this level it takes an enormous amount of talent, not luck.”
Given 2 “strikers” of considerably different talent, say S1 and S2 where S1 >> S2. Both blast long shots. S2’s shot happens to deflect off a player for a goal. S1’s shot, perhaps more accurate and higher velocity, is not “luckily” deflected and is rejected by the goal keeper. In a very low scoring game, S2’s side wins by say 1-0. In a higher scoring game, S2’s lucky shot would be washed out by several goals of the more talented team.
July 7th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
sean,
i am glad you will be here to watch the game but please do NOT say FORZA Italia….rather VIVA AZZURRI or anything else but no FORZA!….. have fun, not only during the game, italy is a great place (as you might have already discovered) cheers.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
I have been to Italy many times, and discovered that it’s a great place. Spent time in a small village square on Elba, where the whole town was gathered to watch a soccer game projected onto a building wall, rooting crazily for their team. A shame that Berlusconi had to go and ruin a perfectly good rallying cry.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
The morning after the Italy win over Germany, and my town went wild, I woke up to a number of slogans fingermarked into the dirt of the windows of my old car. Instead of the typical “Please wash me”, the kids in my neighborhood had written “Viva Italia! and “Victory Italia!”, but the symbol for victory was a double interlocked V which looks like a “W”. Also written on my dirty windows was the other side: an upside-down W which looks like an interlocked “M” (Lose) Germania”, and some slang about the Germans that one wouldn’t want to repeat to one’s mother. Please do _not_ say Forza Italia. Berlusconi and his party are unpopular nowadays, and people will know immediately that you are a foreigner.
If you are in Rome for the match on Sunday, the best place to see the game will probably be around San Giovanni (with big screen) because that is a favorite meeting area for Romans. There will be large TV screens scattered at other places in the city, perhaps even along Via della Conciliazione, (just outside the Vatican), where the world’s attention on the the Pope was focused last year.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
Allez les Bleus!
They deserve to win. The Italians got this far because of their acting ability, not their football skills. They belong in Hollywood, not on the football field.
Who’s refereeing the final match? Hopefully, it’ll be one of the refs who realizes what Italy’s trying to pull and doesn’t put up with any of their B.S.
July 7th, 2006 at 6:36 pm
Sean,
You’ve probably seen it already, but the most sublime goal of the tournament was Maxi Rodriguez’s volley for Argentina against Mexico.
July 7th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
If France wins, would it be the oldest team ever to win the WC?
July 7th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
This time last year France lost it’s “olympic bid”, by one vote, (although I recall a number of fouls committed during the voting process!) I just hope “The best team wins” ?
This World Cup has thrown up some odd results, for me the best team was I believe Germany, followed by Mexico, just for the superb game they played against Argentina.
But this is football, and anything (and most often does happen in the last 90 seconds of normal time!) can happen.
July 7th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
Just a thought about football matches in general, does anyone know the likely odds (probability) of a match result in say a 90 second period?..for instance if the Italy-Germany match was replayed, but just a 90 second match instead of 90 minutes (thats what occurred), would such a match yield the same result?
I guess I am asking if the previous 90 minutes of play, before Italy scored 2 goals, had a significant baring on the match outcome?
I know there are a lot of variables in the 90 minutes previous to the last 90 seconds, but the fact remains the match was pretty much in an equilibrium state 0-0 over 90 minutes of play, then in just 90 seconds, there was a chaotic inbalance?..over 90 seconds from 90 minutes.
Is this coincidental?
July 7th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
The comments about “acting” are probably true..I recall seeing a game (forgot the matchup, Italy & Germany?) where a player “flopped” after contact. Looked really suspicious..an attempt to break-up the flow of the game.
In Basketball & Hockey (similar to Soccer, center & 2 forwards..etc), they call acting “floppping” (over embelishing a foul by an opposing player, aka “Emmy award”) & “diving” (trying to get a Tripping penalty on an opposing player), respectively. I even saw a hockey-player (Mathew Barnaby, renowned for his “clownish behavior”) rear-his-head-backwards, to try to get a referee to call a penalty (punching) on the opposing player. In Hockey, the lack of enforcement by referees, has led to a self-enforcing system: “Fighting” (at 1st glance, unsportsmanlike) is a part-of-the-game! I.e., a cheap-shot will warrant a retaliation by the other team..there are “enforcers” (”goons” who are known more for their fighting/intimidation skills, than hockey skills) who are inserted into the game to “exact justice”.
[ In Hockey, there is the Instigator Rule..full of flaws. I.e., Team A could intentionally decide to provoke Team B with a cheap-shot (unseen by referree), which "baits" Team B into a "reaction/retaliation". Team B's player gets tossed into the Penalty Box, Team A gets a power-play for 2 min..& opportunity to score. Team A gets an advantage, by playing dirty. There's no Justice in the World. ]
In Baseball, there are always these gigantic bench clearing incidents, sometimes brawls. I.e., Team A disrespects Team B (hitting a batter) & Team B retaliates. ( As in Hockey, the retaliating Team B gets their player thrown out). This part of Baseball I dislike (what ever happened to Sportsmanship?), what an example to set for kids who goto a baseball game as a family outing! I suppose GWB being the former owner of the Texas Rangers, he thinks this kind of juvenile/immature behavior is OK in US foreign policy..case in point, the Iraq invasion: “we don’t THINK, we REACT”
“I’ve got this really MORON thing I do, it’s called THINKING..& I’m not a very good American, because I like to form my own opinions”
“I believe NOTHING the govt tells me, NADA”
– George Carlin, comedian
[ he's an amateur-astronomer, reads Physics books ]
Oh, back to “Acting” in Soccer & it’s tactical usefulness in “stealing” a Win.
“When someone Cheats, EVERYBODY Loses”
[ from the scandal in Little League baseball championships, the star-pitcher for Team USA was found to have doctored birth records ]
“Ever since there has been games, there has been cheating”
[ the scandal involving networked computer games ]
The descriptor “Poser” is used in many realms, to describe a phony or faker. Formula 1 was hit by a mini-scandal a few yrs ago, when Team Ferrari (”Forza Ferrari”, those passionate Italian fans..) rigged a win for M. Schumacher: R. Barrichello (Brazilian, btw) was leading, but let M. Schumacher by on the last lap/last-turn, to give Schumi the win. This drew widespread outrage around the world..”the fix was in”
“Cheaters never Prosper”
“You can’t soar like an Eagle, if you’re stuck with a bunch of Turkeys”
– NHL commentator
Go France!
July 7th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Oh, back to “Acting” in Soccer & it’s tactical usefulness in “stealing” a Win.
“When someone Cheats, EVERYBODY Loses”
“Cheaters never Prosper”
“You can’t soar like an Eagle, if you’re stuck with a bunch of Turkeys”
Does this apply to Quantum Mechanics, specifically:Renormalization, sums over histories, hidden variables and dare I say it stringtheory?
Albert Einstein:God Does not play dice!
Niels Bohr:Stop telling God the rule’s of the game?
July 8th, 2006 at 1:25 am
It’s the wine tradition, stupid. Clearly. No doubt. Vive le vin!!
July 8th, 2006 at 1:42 am
Hey, I’m glad someone was seeing the metaphor between 2 manifestations of Game Theory: Soccer & Scientific Research. Flaws in the rules-of-the-game, inevitably lead to abuse by certain “opportunists”.
I was at a conference in 2001 & used these quotes:
“If you can Convince them, Confuse them”
“If you can’t dazzle them with Brilliance, baffle them with Bullsh*t”
“You can’t make chicken-salad, out of chicken-sh*t”
There was a joint paper from Stanford, MIT, Utah (postdoc with endorsement from his famous Stanford prof who’s a total phony) which was a “manufactured paper” based on artistic image (”pretty picture”, a diplomatic term for “no scientific value what-so-ever”). Worthless junk.
I think ST is part of a *comprehensive* toolset that should be tried.
I had a long conversation with a Caltech CS prof recently, & he told me that in his field there wasn’t any single model, but a bunch of models that gave insight to the problem. I like the legal term “Preponderance of Evidence” (i.e., “surround the problem with a bunch of models”), to give “conviction” to a discovery. Legal system..now THAT’s a universe full of Acting!..grandstanding, posturing, all sorts of idiotic games being played.
The “luck factor” was brought up by an early poster..very true. But, there are also other factors..a complex-system of interacting non-orthogonal factors.
“..the Nobel Prize is awarded not to the best physicist, but to the ones who make discoveries [ Luck, "serendipity", along with ability to recognize something ]”
“Want to be a great Physicist..BETTER HAVE A LOT OF LUCK!”
– Leon Lederman
[ from "Student to Scientist" ]
“I’d rather be LUCKY than Good…any day!”
– famous saying in Auto-Racing
“Research is about not knowing what you’re doing [ fooling around, trying out weird/crazy ideas ]”
“I goto work, & just try crazy ideas [ "genetic algorithm" ]”
– Dr. Paul MacCready/Aerovironment, famous Caltech aeronautics PhD
“I don’t what I’m doing, but it sure as heck is FUN! ”
– Herman Munster, “The Munsters”
[ episode where Herman is in the Dungeon, playing with Grandpa's weird science contraption..I will upload this video soon ]
Hence, my signon is “Chimpanzee” since significant research comes about after some serious “monkeying around” (Chimps, Gorillas, Man are primates..monkey have tails, please ignore the anthopological incorrectness)
“Hey hey we’re the monkeys!! hey hey we’re the monkeys!!..ALL WE DO IS MONKEY AROUND”
– Sam Kinison, comedian
July 8th, 2006 at 2:09 am
Paul Valletta #18
“but the fact remains the match was pretty much in an equilibrium state 0-0 over 90 minutes of play, then in just 90 seconds, there was a chaotic inbalance?..over 90 seconds from 90 minutes.”
The Italian team had significantly more shots on the goal (10 vs 2) and kept the ball more (57% vs. 43%), however. Statistics.
Don’t worry, about the scandals, you who think that the national Italian clubs should ‘pay’ for that. They are. The public seems to be generally upset by the scandals, even one of the most popular figures in Italy today, comedian/activist Beppe Grillo, has publically stated his disgust. There is some action this week about the scandals, by the way. I think that the national teams will need some years to recover.
I don’t have a preference who wins. My hope is that the game be as exciting as the Germany / Italian game. I think my American colleagues presently here for a meeting would like Italy to win, just for the cultural experience.
July 8th, 2006 at 2:21 am
Italy has 5 players from Juventus. France has 3 players from Juventus. Furthermore there are 4 ex-players from Juventus. This makes clear who wins.
July 8th, 2006 at 3:17 am
I am backing Italy. They have been very unlucky in 1990 , 1994 and 1998
(losing in pentaly shootouts in the above worldcups). Hope they can pull it
off this time
July 8th, 2006 at 6:54 am
I suspect 0-0 after 90 mins, and either 1-0 to Italy in extra-time or we go to the penalty shootout (the winner of which I won’t predict). I think Italy are a marginally better team. I think the most amazing goal of this tournament was the one that Argentina constructed against Serbia: 24 passes in the build-up, very pleasant to watch. Indeed, Argentina played most beautifully; it’s a shame that they lacked the self-belief to continue playing their natural game after going 1-0 up against Germany with almost half the match remaining. Closely following were the two African teams, Ivory Coast and Ghana, whose fast midfield play was a sight to behold.
July 8th, 2006 at 7:24 am
2 X 0 France, and then you have the chance to see some Italians really angry and complianing with their hands
. Enjoy Trieste!
July 8th, 2006 at 9:01 am
Defense vs Offense
“Defense wins Championships”
These low-scoring games, reminds me of similar things in Hockey & pitcher-duels in Baseball. I haven’t been watching the games closely, I get the feeling the teams are taking a conservative approach: concentrating on a suffocating Defense (shutting out their opponent) & hoping for a “chance” on offense. Taking “risks” for an offensive score could leave one vulnerable for a “transition opportunity” for your opponent.
In Hockey (or Basketball), teams with a lead will get into a defensive-mode..lose their agressiveness on Offense. Their leads will diminish, or lose it altogether. There’s a *balance* of offense & defense. Teams with star-players will design a system for offensive chances. Chicago Bull had a “clear out” for M. Jordan (to let him go 1-on-1 against his defender), Florida Panthers will leave Pavel Bure (aka the “Russian Rocket”) near the blue-line hoping for a break-away opportunity (to leverage his speed).
[ I'm a real fan of Russian hockey-players:
"Strengths: Butsayev is a two-way center who plays a strong defensive game
and also chips in from time to time offensively. Yuri has tremendous grit
and character, and never takes a shift off. He is a strong on draws, works
tenaciously along the boards, and never gets caught out of position.
Butsayev has superb work ethic and hustles on every shift at both ends of
the ice. Yuri also possesses a sixth sense with the puck, a common trait
among Russian players, and he uses his teammates effectively."
Russian hockey ("Communism" is based on the Communal effort) is famous for its teamwork, great passing (leading to beautiful goals). The Detroit Redwings had an all-Russian line (aka "the Russian 5") to utilize this "system": Larionov, Fedorov, Kozlov, Fetisov, Konstantinov ]
The NHL loosened it up recently, & changed the rules to prevent teams from going overboard on Defense. Carolina Hurricanes (who won the Stanley Cup this year) traditionally use this strategy, & it leads to low-scoring boring games. NHL is in trouble (bad ratings), so they want more offense to make it more Entertaining.. (same deal with Science Funding..Space Shuttle, ISS, Manned Mars halucination, “They [ Govt ] want something SEXY!”/Dr. Zirin/Caltech told me)
I’m studying the patterns in Defense/Offense in Sports, to give perpspective on the problems in Research.
Defense: no mistakes, no junk-papers (”Acting”), no infighting
Offense: spirited attack on a problem, energy & talent
I’m amazed at the infighting I see in research-community (mine & others). They have no training in Sports philosophy (it’s never taught), it’s primarily an “individual sport”. “Win as a Team, Lose as a Team”. This stuff is spotted immediately in Sports, & players (or managers) are fired/traded/demoted to eliminate any division. Team chemistry is important.
“On race-day, you can never win it..YOU CAN ONLY LOSE IT”
– Ray Evernham, crew-chief for Jeff Gordon
[ emphasizes the importance of not-making-mistakes, i.e. a Defensive Mode ]
July 8th, 2006 at 8:00 pm
I don’t understand why the Italian team has this reputation of “acting” or diving.
Is that because of the PK with the Australia-Italy game? In that case anyone who has ever played soccer knows that as a defender you cannot allow yourself to be on the ground in the box and attempt to tackle your opponent, as it happened at the 90th minute of the game.
The general consensus was that it was a penalty kick if it had happened in the first half, but not at the 90th minute. I cannot disagree more with this opinion. A PK is a PK, it doesn’t matter if it’s in the first, second or overtime.
I watched all the Italian games really carefully and I did not see one single example of “dirty” play. What I have seen is the German team not returning the ball after it was kicked out to allow for medical assistance on Italian or German players on the ground. Twice.
As for tomorrow I guess I just hope to see good exciting football. And the best team coming out winning.
July 9th, 2006 at 3:39 am
Sun Tzu, Art of War
They teach this at Business Schools, & the metaphor with War is useful for any sport. I heard:
“all the best laid plans for battle [ Italy vs France ] generally distintegrate at the beginning..chaos ensues. The FIRST combatant to regain order (from chaos), wins the battle”
Click here for a good essay on chaos/order, maybe some physicists can comment on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics as applied to real-life Game Theory.
The beginning of the finals will be interesting, both sides will be feeling each other out. Possibly, one side might go for a quick offensive strike (high-risk, opening it up to a counter-strike) to surprise its opponent. The team to score 1st has a big psychological advantage..the other team is immediately put under pressure. This is always the case in a winner-take-all final..hockey, football, baseball, etc. Both teams will be nervous initially, there will be mistakes & miscues. If it can be captialize on by a vigilant opponent, it might open the doors to an offensive opportunity.
“It’s all about psychology”
“90% of the game is played above the shoulders”
– Yogi Berra
July 9th, 2006 at 10:37 am
I think soccer is too individualistic a game to be able to be won or lost by invoking Sun Tzu’s Art of War, something akin to the mean scale of motion being close to the mean free month to render the principles of continuum mechanics meaningless/inoperative.
July 9th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
Game is about to start, Trieste is buzzing. Funny to see every restaurant and bar struggle to set up a TV that actually can receive the game; see, there is something that Americans are good at. Viva Azzurri!
July 9th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Watching the game right now..a hard foul by Italy on a French player in the “red zone” (the announcers are playing them up for their great defense). Another foul (announcer said the French player “sold it well”..acting?) in the Red Zone..penalty kick to France! Kick, hits the top-post..SCORE!
France scores 1st..this is significant since Italy is stingy on allowing goals (only USA scored on them in tournament?)
France is creating offensive chances (”agressiveness), Italy is responding with fouls. (last one was questionable though).
July 9th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
near goal by Italy off a corner-kick, the announcers are talking about the Italian player “getting away with a push-off” (common illegal tactic in basketball, to get a rebound..push the defensive player out of the way). They are implying, the 1st Italian goal is tainted by a push-off..the header off a corner-kick.
“Art is in the Details”
Call Soccer “Art & Science”, there is artistic creativity & scientific-based tactics/strategy. Some of the “details” are dirty play here & there.
The announcers made reference to a dive (on France?, to get a free kick), & how this tournament has had too much “acting”. The refs are ignoring it, & not interrupting the game-flow. This happens in playoff games in NBA basketball, where the refs will just “let the players play”. This might manifest later in some back&forth fouling by Italy & France, which might lead to “fireworks” (i.e., extracurricular activity)..fights.
July 9th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
For the first time ever, I’m watching soccer on my TV here at home. To keep up the American interest, ABC (the broadcasting company showing the match) is panning to shots of cute babes in the audience and displaying a sports ticker with updated baseball scores at the bottom of the screen.
July 9th, 2006 at 1:53 pm
The announcers are calling the 1st half “very entertaining”. I’m not a soccer expert, but I noticed each team has had exciting offensive chances. Nice passing & ball-control by France..reminds me of Russian hockey. Some spirited attack by Italy, they responded well (”counter attack”) after France’s initial goal.
The coaches will be making adjustments for 2nd half, it will be interesting to see how the teams come out after the intermission.
There was a camera shot focused on a huge firework thing in the stands. How the heck was that incendiary sneaked into a major event? This implies there isn’t a strong enough security “umbrella”, if a terrorist wanted to create havoc. I’m just waiting for that infamous British streaker to make an appearance (he struck at Wimbledon already a few days ago)
July 9th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
France on a breakaway..centering pass, pass to left-winger..he drives to the goal, & goes down! Bad call on referees (according to announcers, replay is shown), clearly a foul on Frenchin the red-zone. France was denied a PK. “Kill the Umpire” is the phrase in Baseball, French fans must be going ballistic!
France was robbed!
Another offensive opportunity for France, she is applying pressure!
“You know I say, pressure busts pipes. & you know
he wants to see if you’re gonna be the pipe that busts”
— Curtis Martin, played 4 seasons w/Bill Parcells (legendary American football coach)
Next team who scores, could have a real advantage.
July 9th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Italy with a quick strike, header into the goal! Wait, referee is calling offsides..goal denied! WTF?! Analyst is caling the call questionable, but given the bad call denying France a PK..it all evens out. This is what happens in American basketball, the coaches “work the referees” to emphasize their blown call..the refs usually call a bogus foul to even things up.
Both teams are on their game, vigorous action.
July 9th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
DiRossi “flopped”, fans whistled, replay confirms..bad call by referee. They fell for the “act”. Bring on Instant Replay! Nah, that destroys game-flow (like it does in American football).
July 9th, 2006 at 2:56 pm
Overtime. 2 periods (no golden goal), PK shootout. France dominating play in latter stages of regulation, controlling the ball for last 20 min. Announcers are saying Italy is fatigued.
Race vs Endurance
It’s now come down to an issue of Endurance. France has 2 substitutions left, Italy none (I assume this extends into overtime periods?) Announcers say that Italy has the ability to score quickly (2 goals against Germany?).
France is one of the 2 oldest teams, avg age is 29. Endurance usually favors the younger team, but..”Experience is a Great Teacher”
ABC is showing shots of Boston?!
July 9th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
France almost scores on a penetration by Ribery..
“It’s not a matter of IF, but WHEN”
France is controlling the ball, & applying constant pressure. It almost was a game-breaker.
July 9th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Near score by France! Header (”deflection”) by Zidane, off a nice setup..great save by Italy goalkeeper. Announcers are saying Italy players are walking..not running: bad sign. Fatigue.
The above play reflected this, it was an easy setup.
Italy is getting lucky, in avoiding getting scored on. Chance for Italy to score a lucky goal (”out of the blue”), & devastate team France.
July 9th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
They may have a strong wine tradition, but I doubt very much any member of the two teams drinks wine on a regular basis… (not good for athletes!)
July 9th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Zidane (France) head-butts an Italian player in the chest..shown on replay. At 1st, the fans whistled..to imply an Italy “flop”.
Red card, Zidane is out!
[ "player of that stature in a classless act" ]
There was an “exchange” between the 2 players, so maybe my statement about a fight (”fouling getting out of control, not called by refs”)..
An “opening” for Italy, France lost its leader..
July 9th, 2006 at 3:33 pm
overtime over, now the final is decided on PK shootout. Last time it happened was in ‘94, I believe it was Rose Bowl in Pasadena (I was here when it happened). Announcers are saying it could come down to the “goalkeeper who comes up big”. A team & tournament has come down to a defensive-stop by a goalkeeper.
“An Army of One”
July 9th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Well, that was a deeply unsatisfying end to the world’s biggest sporting event. I do wonder what happened with Zidane and the head butt. Nevertheless: congrats Italia!
July 9th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Italy wins! The PKs were unstoppable, the missed France PK into the cross-bar was the difference.
France deserved to win, but I guess Italy “stole it” at the end. Italy lost the shootout in ‘94 (against Brazil), but “turnaround is fair play”.
Announcers are talking about the soccer scandal rocking Italy, & the bad play by Zitane (France).
July 9th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Announcer brought up a good point: “that foul by Zidane should NOT have been shown”, because a referee’s call is always based on the an on-field observation (not a TV replay). If they allowed the Zidane call, then should have allowed a PK on the foul by Italy on the French penetration in the Red Zone. (replay clearly showed a foul). Would have been an almost sure-goal by France, 2-1 France at that point. Game outcome surely altered.
They are showing referees gettting medals..well BS!, the missed the call (the girl analyst mockingly said she’s never seen officials get medals).
There is talk of the Italy scandal, about officials being influenced by $$. “The fix is in”. Just like the infamous cheating scandal in Ice Skating (the female French judge pressured by another judge, to give the incumbent skaters favorable marks).
“It’s all rigged”
– xxx, ex-Northrop engineer
[ about getting US Govt contracts for fighter-aircraft, "there's no fair play" in the contract-bidding system ]
Same deal with Science Research, is more about “Salesmanship & Schmoozing” (”The golden rule: He who has the Gold, Rules”), as per IPAC/Caltech (written by one of K. Thorne’s ex-PhD students). Same thing with NASA becoming more of an “Entertainment” agency (halucination w/manned-Mars mission), than one which funds projects that supports Science. I heard that Stanford is more interested in projects which bring $$ into the university (as opposed to the quality of Research)..this is true for most Universities (to varying degrees).
Were the refs “paid off” by wealthy Italian-based mafia? Conspiracy Theories are welcome! Given all the Sports Scandals (blood doping in this years Tour De France..3 major riders thrown out: Basso, Ulrich, xxx, Baseball’s steroids scandal..B. Bonds trainer thrown in jail recently, et al), you have a situation called “Preponderance of Evidence”. Can’t give “benefit of the doubt”, there’s too much cr*p going on..
“The Almighty Dollar”
“Money talks, BS walks”
July 9th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
I am truly baffled by Zidane. Ok, he’s not precisely known for being a sweetheart, but this just isn’t him…
That being said, I think one of the “problems” with americans and football is that they rarely watch any game, and when they do it it’s (evidently) the final. Which may seem like a boring game, being so much at stake, and in this case, having 2 teams with excellent defences. I remember all my american friends complaining after the final in ‘94 (Brazil – Italy, the other final to be decided in PK’s). What I remember from that world cup was the game Argentina – Netherlands, one of the finest matches I will get to see in my life. In this one, it may be too soon to tell, but I think I will not forget Mexico – Argentina in a while.
July 9th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
But the referee did confer with the linesman and then meted out the punishment. Perhaps the linesman was unduly influenced by the replay …
But I think it’s a fair outcome as the chain of events that ensued put Italy as heavy odds as both Zidane and Henry were not on the shootout roster as the rule requires that only the men standing in the field after the extra time qualify to participate in the shootout. So even if the first ten players scored for either team, Italy would still have been one up …
July 9th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
“Luck [ "serendipity" in Science, making discoveries ]..is that indeterminate factor”
After an even 1-1 game (although France dominated the game late..with ball-control & possession), it came down to a missed PK (hit the dang crossbar!?) from France. Announcers said Italy was lucky that France didn’t score on them late in the game (when they were dominating), France was lucky that the Italy goal was nullified (close offside call by ref). Luck, Luck..& more luck!
In the end, Italy had the last “Lady Luck” smile on them..
“That’s all She [ Lady Luck ] wrote”
In the History books
“I’d rather be Lucky, than Good..ANY DAY”
– famous saying in Auto Racing
“The Thrill of Victory, & the Agony of Defeat”
– ABC Sports
I feel for Team France, they deserved better. (”You’ve come too far!!”) Devastated players sitting on the ground, contemplating what could have been.. At this level, there are NO losers..only survivors.
“Wanna be a great Scientist? Make sure you HAVE A LOT OF LUCK!”
– Leon Lederman, “From Student to Scientist”
“Let Luck reign when the LHC comes on-line next year”
Who will be that “lucky team” who will make a great discovery next year?
July 9th, 2006 at 8:25 pm
Dan, did you mean Holland-Brazil in 1994 ? (this was a great game)
Holland did mean Argentina in 1998 (which was also a very good game)
July 10th, 2006 at 12:37 am
Hmmm…what should I do? Should I keep up with the game by reading chimpanzee’s comments? Or should I actually WATCH the game?
Please.
July 10th, 2006 at 12:39 am
Italia wins the World Cup! Uncle Enzo so happy!
Italia!
Italia!
Italia!
No poker!
No physics!
Yes Italia! Let’s talk about Italia!
Honk your horn for Italia!
Beep! Beep!
July 10th, 2006 at 1:56 am
Thanks Shantanu, you got it right!
July 10th, 2006 at 3:54 am
What a bizarre win. I spent a full day with several friends/colleagues bouncing like a rabbit in and out of the Tarquinia and Norchia Etruscan tombs in northern Lazio, and could only tune into the game about the time that the famous head butt occurred. Not the kind of game I was hoping to see. But given the fact that Italians are not patriotic (family and town and local region is the most important), seeing the emotional display of Italian flags and their level of ecstacy about that particular endeavor was a rare experience. You may not see such a thing again in your lifetime, Sean.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:47 am
I just saw an ABC overall summary of the World Cup, references to “diving”, unsportsmanlike conduct, & the Italian soccer scandal (read article, sounds pretty bad). Here’s a question: if half of the Italian World Cup team is implicated, does that dis-qualify those players & Italy’s World Cup championship? Pete Rose (arguably the greatest player in Baseball History) was denied entry into the Hall of Fame, because of gambling allegations? (lots of circumstantial evidence, but only convicted of tax-evasion).
The rules of the World Cup should have a clause, regarding Ethics & Sportsmanship. The US Military (West Point) was rocked by a Cheating Scandal back in the 70’s (& even now, with harassment of female cades @Air Force Academy), whereupon they had to amend the U.S. Cadet Code of Conduct:
“A cadet does not engage in Cheating, NOR DOES HE CONDONE IT (if he witnesses it)”
[ to prevent a "Code of Silence" situation, thereby fueling cheating situations. It's actually emblazened on a large stone on the Air Force Academy campus ]
If half of the Italian squad is implicated, & the World Cup allows them to walk away with a championship..what does that say about the Credibility of the WC?
“Once you lost Credibility, YOU CAN NEVER GET IT BACK”
– from a Journalism ethics website
I wonder if some enterprising soul/entity will file a protest (& possible legal-action), claiming disqualification of Italy..thereby handing the championship to France? An Indy 500 result ended up getting wrapped up in a court-case (B. Unser & M. Andretti), before the final result was handed down. The “passing under yellow” rule was the issue, & a lawsuit was filed to have it enforced!
Sportsmanship & Ethics, the Integrity of the Game. The World Cup is about unity of countries all over the world, where they can ignore politics/war & come together (”even playing field”) for some sportsmanlike competition. “May the best player win!”
Possibly didn’t happen, with the Italian soccer scandal.
Recall the 2002 Winter Olympics skating scandal, they actually rectified the situation by awarding TWO gold medals (public outrage forced the Olympic committee to “upgrade” the 2nd place Canadian team). This prompted a lashback, “this defeats the purpose of a gold medal, you can’t have 2 winners!”
There may be some motivation for FIFA World Cup to do something similar. I don’t think they can have their image tarnished by a WC champion (Italy) go around with this “cloud of suspicion”. Look at the recent Tour de France blood doping scandal, the offenders were flat out DQ’d from competition (an Italian cyclist accused L. Armstrong/USA of cheating, a book came out & lawsuits were filed). TDF is taking a stand against cheating, enforcing rules (DQ’d 2 of the top cyclists, Basso & Ulrich) & preventing it from tarnishing their Sport & public-image.
“The predictive power of a Theory”
You’re all scientists, & understand the “global implications” of a local phenomena. This type of “game fixing, refs being paid off” must extend beyond Italian soccer, how big of a problem is it elsewhere? Short response to a solution: Rules & Enforcement. Some education of players/managers, a sports-wide mandate should be implemented. Olympics have 2 stages of blood testing. Some athletes were DQ’d & sent packing home, after failed drug tests at the recent Greek Olympics.
“What’s the point, in participating in a Competition, where there isn’t a ‘level playing field’? May as well go home.”
July 10th, 2006 at 6:35 am
Dear chimpanzee, if you want to complain about the Credibility of the WC and disqualify somebody, the matches of South Corea in 2002 are surely a better candidate than Italy vs France + Africa.
July 10th, 2006 at 7:58 am
So, Sean, how about Trieste? Maybe, if you have time, you could write about it and also ICTP, although today Italy might be breathing soccer
…
July 10th, 2006 at 8:56 am
Orangutan, you just fueled my argument.
If the 2002 scandal was an issue (& there is certainly one in 2006), then that just paints a consistent picture. “Preponderance of Evidence”. 2002 incident doesn’t lessent he 2006 incident, they *collectively* point to an Ethics/Standards issue.
All Sports are being rocked by Cheating Scandals, the PED (Performance Enhancing Drugs) is a really serious widespread problem. If 1 athlete uses them..& gets away with it, then other athletes feel compelled to do it. If they don’t, they can’t compete (& can’t win). Obviously, the Sanctioning Body has to step in with Rules & Enforcement (drug tests). Unfortunately, Science/Bio-Tech is getting a black-eye here, just like the A-Bomb (”explosive technology”): it’s being used for malevolent purposes.
I won’t forget the infamous Olympics boxing scandal, where a S. Korean boxer was given a decision over an American boxer (black)..after the American clearly won the fight. There were allegations of bribes (”diamonds given to the refs”).
I’m against any violation of Ethics, Integrity, Credibility. Italy’s win is tainted, I’m playing no favorites. “Cheaters never Prosper”
Here’s a good essay on Ethics/Integrity, Man in the Glass, & here
Can Team Italy look at themselves in the Glass? If they do, then they have problems..
July 10th, 2006 at 9:48 am
Cher chimpanzee,
the 2006 scandal involves some managers of italian teams, not their players. Otherwise (taking into account that italian teams have plenty of foreign players) we should disqualify Italy, France and a dozen of other countries.
July 10th, 2006 at 11:23 am
exactly @ orangutan. For example, Trezeuget, who played for France, is on the Juventus team that is being relegated. Zidane used to play for them. The scandal there is NOT the players, it’s the managers/ownership.
Forza Azurri!
July 10th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Yes, Forza Italia!
July 10th, 2006 at 11:43 pm
I think the reason why we (Germany) didn’t win is simply because you can’t be Pope and Football world champion simultaneously. Furthermore I’d like to say that I think it’s a cruel game, because sometimes teams win in the last minute of extra time that played “well” against opponents such as Australia and Ukraine…
Both teams were struggling in the final, the second half was the most static I’ve ever seen. Zizou really decided that game by eliminating himself. I guess even with his experience you can lose your temper when the pressure’s on. So , in conclusion, I disagree with people saying Italy is a worthy champion. They were lucky, which is a big part of football, I know….I guess I’ll make peace with this outcome in a couple of weeks.
Anyhow, I’m all for giving them an Oscar for good acting, though.
July 10th, 2006 at 11:57 pm
Matthias Ihl?