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	<title>Comments on: At The Other Monastery</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Work on the Play Day - Asymptotia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-19011</link>
		<dc:creator>Work on the Play Day - Asymptotia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jan 2007 04:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-19011</guid>
		<description>[...] Yes, today is work-on-the-play day and it will be very interesting, since you&#8217;ve not looked at the thing for a long time due to other commitments. Certainly not since it was read by real actors with real people in the audience at the Pasadena Playhouse during the Summer, although you could not attend, due to being out of town. You wonder if it was as fun as the other public reading, and whether readings will ever be as magical to you as that first private one. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Yes, today is work-on-the-play day and it will be very interesting, since you&#8217;ve not looked at the thing for a long time due to other commitments. Certainly not since it was read by real actors with real people in the audience at the Pasadena Playhouse during the Summer, although you could not attend, due to being out of town. You wonder if it was as fun as the other public reading, and whether readings will ever be as magical to you as that first private one. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: News From the Front, IV - Asymptotia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-19010</link>
		<dc:creator>News From the Front, IV - Asymptotia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-19010</guid>
		<description>[...] I began wondering about this issue (i.e., How do you recognise a string theory if it walked up and shook you by the hand?) a while ago, off and on, and then again this year in earnest. Two weeks in the monastery I referred to previously helped me crystallize some of the thoughts into a specific narrative, with the specific examples presented, and I&#8217;ve been chipping away at some of these thoughts and computations ever since then (including at the other monastery), resulting in the (long overdue) paper appearing tonight. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I began wondering about this issue (i.e., How do you recognise a string theory if it walked up and shook you by the hand?) a while ago, off and on, and then again this year in earnest. Two weeks in the monastery I referred to previously helped me crystallize some of the thoughts into a specific narrative, with the specific examples presented, and I&#8217;ve been chipping away at some of these thoughts and computations ever since then (including at the other monastery), resulting in the (long overdue) paper appearing tonight. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-19002</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-19002</guid>
		<description>No Elliot.

There&#039;s another twist, and Jack meets &lt;a href=&quot;http://eskesthai.blogspot.com/2006/07/alice-and-cosmic-ballet-now-meet.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Higgins&lt;/a&gt;?:)

Higgins is beyond anything Jack is use too. The fictional conspiracy grows with this new turn of events.

 The crew begins to delve into &quot;other possible&quot; terror scenarios?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Elliot.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s another twist, and Jack meets <a href="http://eskesthai.blogspot.com/2006/07/alice-and-cosmic-ballet-now-meet.html" rel="nofollow">Higgins</a>?:)</p>
<p>Higgins is beyond anything Jack is use too. The fictional conspiracy grows with this new turn of events.</p>
<p> The crew begins to delve into &#8220;other possible&#8221; terror scenarios?</p>
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		<title>By: Elliot</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-19003</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-19003</guid>
		<description>So the last season of 24 ended in a &quot;Cliff&quot; hanger (no pun intended) with Jack spirited off to China. Perhaps the fact these actors keep coincidently  &quot;showing up&quot; in your life, means that the evil doers in next seasons show will be using weapons based on string theory. They will not only threaten to destroy the earth but the entire universe.

;)

Elliot</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the last season of 24 ended in a &#8220;Cliff&#8221; hanger (no pun intended) with Jack spirited off to China. Perhaps the fact these actors keep coincidently  &#8220;showing up&#8221; in your life, means that the evil doers in next seasons show will be using weapons based on string theory. They will not only threaten to destroy the earth but the entire universe.<br />
 <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Elliot</p>
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		<title>By: Amara</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-19001</link>
		<dc:creator>Amara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 06:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-19001</guid>
		<description>Hi Clifford- Welcome to yet another Monastery. Other ideas for you for the future for interesting places to stay or to host workshops are the Portuguese &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pousadasofportugal.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pousadas&lt;/a&gt; and the Spanish &lt;a href=&quot;http://parapromotions-spain.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Paradors&lt;/a&gt;. The idea for each is that the government takes a historical or otherwise special site and preserves it by turning it into guest quarters. The Paradors are extremely expensive, but the management are happy to offer such places for reduced prices for scientists and scientific workshops. I stayed at the Parador located at the top of the dormant volcano El Teide in 2001 with a group of volcanologists for their yearly workshop (I gave a talk about the dust from the volcanoes on Io) and you can&#039;t beat such scenery. One of the hotel workers even owned a dobsonian telescope that we could borrow to look at the sky. The Portuguese Pousadas are much more affordable. I used them occassionally for a 2002 Portugal bicycle trip in order to help me pick up more cultural history of the region I was passing through.

Watch the code-sharing.. Lufthansa (as poor as the planes have become) and United airlines work well together, but United Airlines and US Airways don&#039;t (they don&#039;t talk to each other and make dreadful mistakes transferring luggage between the two airlines), and in general I&#039;ve learned that it is good to check the flight designation to know for sure &quot;which&quot; airline is actually flying to know better about the &#039;sharing&#039;. In 2003, I used Air Canada to go to Denver for a workshop in the Rocky Mountains because the price was good, and because Air Canada was part of the Star Alliance network. Somehow Alitalia code-shared the Air Canada flight and flew that part. Since Alitalia is not part of the Star Alliance network, I lost miles on my Mileage Plus for that round-trip Transatlantic flight.

(OK, not about string theory, gauge theory or particle physics, but thoughts that came to my mind when you spoke about your trip.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Clifford- Welcome to yet another Monastery. Other ideas for you for the future for interesting places to stay or to host workshops are the Portuguese <a href="http://www.pousadasofportugal.com/" rel="nofollow">Pousadas</a> and the Spanish <a href="http://parapromotions-spain.com/" rel="nofollow">Paradors</a>. The idea for each is that the government takes a historical or otherwise special site and preserves it by turning it into guest quarters. The Paradors are extremely expensive, but the management are happy to offer such places for reduced prices for scientists and scientific workshops. I stayed at the Parador located at the top of the dormant volcano El Teide in 2001 with a group of volcanologists for their yearly workshop (I gave a talk about the dust from the volcanoes on Io) and you can&#8217;t beat such scenery. One of the hotel workers even owned a dobsonian telescope that we could borrow to look at the sky. The Portuguese Pousadas are much more affordable. I used them occassionally for a 2002 Portugal bicycle trip in order to help me pick up more cultural history of the region I was passing through.</p>
<p>Watch the code-sharing.. Lufthansa (as poor as the planes have become) and United airlines work well together, but United Airlines and US Airways don&#8217;t (they don&#8217;t talk to each other and make dreadful mistakes transferring luggage between the two airlines), and in general I&#8217;ve learned that it is good to check the flight designation to know for sure &#8220;which&#8221; airline is actually flying to know better about the &#8217;sharing&#8217;. In 2003, I used Air Canada to go to Denver for a workshop in the Rocky Mountains because the price was good, and because Air Canada was part of the Star Alliance network. Somehow Alitalia code-shared the Air Canada flight and flew that part. Since Alitalia is not part of the Star Alliance network, I lost miles on my Mileage Plus for that round-trip Transatlantic flight.</p>
<p>(OK, not about string theory, gauge theory or particle physics, but thoughts that came to my mind when you spoke about your trip.)</p>
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		<title>By: LambchopofGod</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-19000</link>
		<dc:creator>LambchopofGod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 04:34:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-19000</guid>
		<description>&quot;The &quot;funny region&quot; where space and time have no meaning....&quot;

Well, if space and time have no meaning, we shouldn&#039;t be talking about &quot;regions&quot; or &quot;where&quot;, should we now? And even that &quot;have&quot; looks rather questionable :-)

I agree with CVJ that it may not be very helpful to get all philosophical here. But philosophy might just remind us that &quot;replacing space and time&quot; is likely to be a *lot* harder than we think. I recall an amusing talk by a quantum gravity theorist who insisted that space and time would be replaced by &quot;a well-known substance, familiar to all quantum gravity theorists, which appears in all discussions of this subject, including those by string theorists&quot;, which he denoted by SE. At the end of the talk it was revealed that the &quot;substance&quot; was &quot;Something Else&quot;. Such honesty is all too rare; too many people think that the magic incantation &quot;Duality!&quot; automatically generates &quot;Something Else&quot;. It doesn&#039;t.
By the way, it is true that the singularities studied by Sethi et al have only a very tenuous connection with real cosmological singularities. The hope, however, is that their so-called singularities might turn into something more interesting when back-reaction is turned on......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The &#8220;funny region&#8221; where space and time have no meaning&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, if space and time have no meaning, we shouldn&#8217;t be talking about &#8220;regions&#8221; or &#8220;where&#8221;, should we now? And even that &#8220;have&#8221; looks rather questionable <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I agree with CVJ that it may not be very helpful to get all philosophical here. But philosophy might just remind us that &#8220;replacing space and time&#8221; is likely to be a *lot* harder than we think. I recall an amusing talk by a quantum gravity theorist who insisted that space and time would be replaced by &#8220;a well-known substance, familiar to all quantum gravity theorists, which appears in all discussions of this subject, including those by string theorists&#8221;, which he denoted by SE. At the end of the talk it was revealed that the &#8220;substance&#8221; was &#8220;Something Else&#8221;. Such honesty is all too rare; too many people think that the magic incantation &#8220;Duality!&#8221; automatically generates &#8220;Something Else&#8221;. It doesn&#8217;t.<br />
By the way, it is true that the singularities studied by Sethi et al have only a very tenuous connection with real cosmological singularities. The hope, however, is that their so-called singularities might turn into something more interesting when back-reaction is turned on&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-18999</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 03:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-18999</guid>
		<description>Maybe, Brian Greene is what we call a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.iscap.columbia.edu/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Supercosmologist&lt;/a&gt;? :)

Maybe you too, Clifford?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe, Brian Greene is what we call a <a href="http://www.iscap.columbia.edu/" rel="nofollow">Supercosmologist</a>? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Maybe you too, Clifford?</p>
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		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-18998</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 02:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-18998</guid>
		<description>Are you a SuperCosmologist? :)

You know what happens when you have to explain yourself?

 Well, it could be interpreted that maybe I didn&#039;t understand it at all? Well that&#039;s partially true, and I do know the trouble philosphers have?

Oh your not &quot;obtuse&quot; at all either Clifford.

&lt;b&gt;SuperCosmologists Think Out of the Box&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;Clifford at 1:13 a.m. August 3 2005 &lt;/i&gt;

&lt;b&gt;Clifford&lt;/b&gt;:&lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/03/supercosmologists-think-out-of-the-box/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Physicist are attracted by the idea of showing that the types of 3+1 dimensional models and equations which regular cosmologists study actually have their origins &quot;outside the box,&quot; in the larger setting....&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Better? :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you a SuperCosmologist? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>You know what happens when you have to explain yourself?</p>
<p> Well, it could be interpreted that maybe I didn&#8217;t understand it at all? Well that&#8217;s partially true, and I do know the trouble philosphers have?</p>
<p>Oh your not &#8220;obtuse&#8221; at all either Clifford.</p>
<p><b>SuperCosmologists Think Out of the Box</b> <i>Clifford at 1:13 a.m. August 3 2005 </i></p>
<p><b>Clifford</b>:<a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/03/supercosmologists-think-out-of-the-box/" rel="nofollow"><br />
<blockquote>Physicist are attracted by the idea of showing that the types of 3+1 dimensional models and equations which regular cosmologists study actually have their origins &#8220;outside the box,&#8221; in the larger setting&#8230;.</p></blockquote>
<p></a></p>
<p>Better? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-18995</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-18995</guid>
		<description>Clifford - long time no see...

Looks as though you have moved onto a more attractive monastery. Despite your body bathing in less atmospheric pressure and your blood circulating with less oxygen, I&#039;m certain your stay at this outdoor monatary is riveling to your senses.;-)

Hmmm...Can time end? Equally profound, how did time begin? Doubtlessly, the component of time, as opposed to the multi-components of space, still remains the fundamental wild-card in theoretical physics. Intuitively speaking, the flow of time is intertwined with the process of entropy production. Likewise, the component of time appears to be the key mechanism behind the evolution of the Universe.

Perhaps on his quest to make sense of time, your fellow theorist - Savdeep Sethi- can solve the cosmological constant problem, in turn, can unveil the ubiquitous dark energy as well.

Best, Cynthia</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford &#8211; long time no see&#8230;</p>
<p>Looks as though you have moved onto a more attractive monastery. Despite your body bathing in less atmospheric pressure and your blood circulating with less oxygen, I&#8217;m certain your stay at this outdoor monatary is riveling to your senses.;-)</p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230;Can time end? Equally profound, how did time begin? Doubtlessly, the component of time, as opposed to the multi-components of space, still remains the fundamental wild-card in theoretical physics. Intuitively speaking, the flow of time is intertwined with the process of entropy production. Likewise, the component of time appears to be the key mechanism behind the evolution of the Universe.</p>
<p>Perhaps on his quest to make sense of time, your fellow theorist &#8211; Savdeep Sethi- can solve the cosmological constant problem, in turn, can unveil the ubiquitous dark energy as well.</p>
<p>Best, Cynthia</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/comment-page-1/#comment-19005</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 21:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/07/24/at-the-other-monastery/#comment-19005</guid>
		<description>pe - First, my qualifications in philosophy are irrelevant here. I&#039;m talking about physics here, including the history of the ideas in the field of physics, which I study and teach. I did not say that philosophy was irrelevant, merely that it is not usually useful at this stage of doing physical science. If all that great body of philosophic work that drove physics is really out there but hidden (as you seem to imply), then it is hard to see how it drove the physics.

In the large part, physics has not advanced by people sitting around declaring that an issue  is wierd or spooky and therefore a matter for the philosophers. Not the philosophy of the sort Spyder is referrring to. We&#039;d never have had Galileo or Newton or Einstein, to name just a few. The philosophy (and I don&#039;t mean &quot;natural philosophy&quot; (roughly what we would call physics now)) that is associated with those people and their physics came *after* the physics. People will no doubt come in and try to romanticize what they were doing and blow out of proportion some philosophy-sounding things they might have said in their writings, but they will be wrong. Strip down what those scientists were doing to the core and you will see that they were doing good old fashioned physics, and using a firmly pragmatic scientific method as their guide.

I don&#039;t want to overstate things here (since I like the idea of healthy dialogue between disciplines), but it is very important to distinguish the process of doing  physical science from doing philosophy, and we&#039;ve done a lot better at accurately describing our world in physical terms by doing the  former. To simplify a bit, I know, one could say that the latter is useful for trying to make sense of the description once it has been found. Trying to make sense of it all is another matter entirely. That is not what physics is about.

So physics (=observation, experiment and constructing physical theories to underlie the results) comes first, while philosphy follows. &#039;twas ever thus. Sorry if you don&#039;t like it, but the weight of history is against you on this one.

Kindly present me with a good measure of significant counter examples rather than questioning my qualifications, and I&#039;ll be happy to reconsider.

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pe &#8211; First, my qualifications in philosophy are irrelevant here. I&#8217;m talking about physics here, including the history of the ideas in the field of physics, which I study and teach. I did not say that philosophy was irrelevant, merely that it is not usually useful at this stage of doing physical science. If all that great body of philosophic work that drove physics is really out there but hidden (as you seem to imply), then it is hard to see how it drove the physics.</p>
<p>In the large part, physics has not advanced by people sitting around declaring that an issue  is wierd or spooky and therefore a matter for the philosophers. Not the philosophy of the sort Spyder is referrring to. We&#8217;d never have had Galileo or Newton or Einstein, to name just a few. The philosophy (and I don&#8217;t mean &#8220;natural philosophy&#8221; (roughly what we would call physics now)) that is associated with those people and their physics came *after* the physics. People will no doubt come in and try to romanticize what they were doing and blow out of proportion some philosophy-sounding things they might have said in their writings, but they will be wrong. Strip down what those scientists were doing to the core and you will see that they were doing good old fashioned physics, and using a firmly pragmatic scientific method as their guide.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to overstate things here (since I like the idea of healthy dialogue between disciplines), but it is very important to distinguish the process of doing  physical science from doing philosophy, and we&#8217;ve done a lot better at accurately describing our world in physical terms by doing the  former. To simplify a bit, I know, one could say that the latter is useful for trying to make sense of the description once it has been found. Trying to make sense of it all is another matter entirely. That is not what physics is about.</p>
<p>So physics (=observation, experiment and constructing physical theories to underlie the results) comes first, while philosphy follows. &#8217;twas ever thus. Sorry if you don&#8217;t like it, but the weight of history is against you on this one.</p>
<p>Kindly present me with a good measure of significant counter examples rather than questioning my qualifications, and I&#8217;ll be happy to reconsider.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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