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	<title>Comments on: Imagine if &#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Rose</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20412</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 23:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20412</guid>
		<description>I feel the dawning of consciousness is going to profit from this deceit.  Although the &quot;for or against&quot; kinda had me for a nano second.  I had thoughts I was anti American or something, because I needed more global support for our Presidents position!
Man what a sunrise!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel the dawning of consciousness is going to profit from this deceit.  Although the &#8220;for or against&#8221; kinda had me for a nano second.  I had thoughts I was anti American or something, because I needed more global support for our Presidents position!<br />
Man what a sunrise!</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20393</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20393</guid>
		<description>Oh, I don&#039;t like dubya, nor do I like his administration.  But even if I don&#039;t agree with their arguments (for war or for whatever), I do actually respect their intellectual rigor.  (But I don&#039;t, for example, respect the intellectual rigor of this cartoon&#039;s &quot;argument&quot;, even though it presents a conclusion I agree with.)

What bothers most people, but doesn&#039;t bother me, is that they dumbed it down for the american people.  *shrug* sometimes you have to talk to people at their level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I don&#8217;t like dubya, nor do I like his administration.  But even if I don&#8217;t agree with their arguments (for war or for whatever), I do actually respect their intellectual rigor.  (But I don&#8217;t, for example, respect the intellectual rigor of this cartoon&#8217;s &#8220;argument&#8221;, even though it presents a conclusion I agree with.)</p>
<p>What bothers most people, but doesn&#8217;t bother me, is that they dumbed it down for the american people.  *shrug* sometimes you have to talk to people at their level.</p>
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		<title>By: PK</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20394</link>
		<dc:creator>PK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20394</guid>
		<description>David, no matter how you dress it up, this administration has repeatedly changed the reasons for the war, such as WMD, links to terrorism, and regime change. The first two were wrong and the last is illegal. Moreover, Cheney kept on linking Saddam to Al Qaida until very recently. With all that it doesn&#039;t really matter what other people in close orbit around the White House have written.

But if you like dubya, you forgive a lot. Imagine Clinton going in on the basis of WMD and not finding them. You guys would have been all over him, not because of the fabrications (which you seem to swallow quite happily), but just because you hate Clinton. And he probably &lt;i&gt;would&lt;/i&gt; have gone into Iraq after 9/11, just because it is a good idea for an oil-consuming imperium to have control over the richest oil fields in the world.

That&#039;s what this is really about: the ultimate goals of republicans and democrats do not differ that much as to warrant this amount of polarization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, no matter how you dress it up, this administration has repeatedly changed the reasons for the war, such as WMD, links to terrorism, and regime change. The first two were wrong and the last is illegal. Moreover, Cheney kept on linking Saddam to Al Qaida until very recently. With all that it doesn&#8217;t really matter what other people in close orbit around the White House have written.</p>
<p>But if you like dubya, you forgive a lot. Imagine Clinton going in on the basis of WMD and not finding them. You guys would have been all over him, not because of the fabrications (which you seem to swallow quite happily), but just because you hate Clinton. And he probably <i>would</i> have gone into Iraq after 9/11, just because it is a good idea for an oil-consuming imperium to have control over the richest oil fields in the world.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what this is really about: the ultimate goals of republicans and democrats do not differ that much as to warrant this amount of polarization.</p>
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		<title>By: Chinmaya Sheth</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20395</link>
		<dc:creator>Chinmaya Sheth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20395</guid>
		<description>David, But US allies have violated U.N. resolutions multiple times also.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, But US allies have violated U.N. resolutions multiple times also.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Harrison</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20396</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 19:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20396</guid>
		<description>The Iraq adventure was always a dumb idea from a Real Politik point of view. It was also clearly a preventative war and therefore illegal under the usual interpretation of international law. Perhaps what David is really pointing out is not that it was a good idea or a  moral one, but simply that we have the power so we make the rules. We can overturn elected governments, engage in terror bombing, freely torture foreign nationals, and decide who has the right to defend themselves against us.

The problem with this sort of reasoning is that it presumes that America has the power and stamina needed to support its overwhelming national arrogance. Well, maybe we really will be the first imperial power that figures out how to enjoy the hubris without suffering the nemesis. More likely, like the four year old who kicked his uncle in the shins one too many times, we&#039;ll discover that the victims of our aggression can kick back. So &quot;Imagine if...&quot; is a very relevant theme, indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Iraq adventure was always a dumb idea from a Real Politik point of view. It was also clearly a preventative war and therefore illegal under the usual interpretation of international law. Perhaps what David is really pointing out is not that it was a good idea or a  moral one, but simply that we have the power so we make the rules. We can overturn elected governments, engage in terror bombing, freely torture foreign nationals, and decide who has the right to defend themselves against us.</p>
<p>The problem with this sort of reasoning is that it presumes that America has the power and stamina needed to support its overwhelming national arrogance. Well, maybe we really will be the first imperial power that figures out how to enjoy the hubris without suffering the nemesis. More likely, like the four year old who kicked his uncle in the shins one too many times, we&#8217;ll discover that the victims of our aggression can kick back. So &#8220;Imagine if&#8230;&#8221; is a very relevant theme, indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20397</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20397</guid>
		<description>Well, those were the main reasons given to the &quot;american people&quot; in speeches.  But oversimplified speeches are just the annoying part of having a democracy with an uneducated populace.  If you are educated, you have to put up with them, and look deeper.  The Bush administration and the think tanks behind it were saying lots of other things all along, not least of which was the *legality* of the war, which nobody ever talks about (except to say it was somehow illegal... which is flabbergasting).  But Iraq was in flagrant violation of multiple UN resolutions, and really it was 100% clear tha an invasion was legal when Saddam finally kicked out the last of the inspectors during Clinton&#039;s term.  Unfortunately Clinton got distracted by the Lewinsky scandal, or for whatever reason decided not to do anything about ir other than a few cruise missiles (if I remember aright), and the legacy of Saddam flaunting international law at will began.  Conservatives thought that when the US (and its allies) say something, it should carry meaning.  We spent a lot of time trying to convince the UN to uphold its own resolutions, and when finally it became clear they wouldn&#039;t, we did it ourself.  If Bush sr. had expected the UN to become such a gelatanous organization, I think he would have done things differently after the first gulf war.  Anyway, this is an example of one of the issues that was seriously discussed; there was also talk about democratising the middle east for its own stability, enforcing human rights (see especially the introduction to that document I linked to), and probably other causes as well.  But WMD (and the whole world believed he had WMD, from the way he was acting, even though we most certainly lied about having *proof*) was but one cause among many.

But even if it was the only argument, how does the fact that it wouldn&#039;t work back on us mean we shouldn&#039;t have used it?  The whole idea of the cartoon is preposterous.  If somebody wanted to invade the US, it&#039;d probably be because we are a global hegemon and they consider it a danger to security and freedom to let us continue to have such influence.  Do you think the anti-war people in that county (let&#039;s say it&#039;s sri lanka) would make cartoons, saying &quot;Imagine if somebody called us a global hegemon and said we were a threat to freedom and security?&quot;.  No, it&#039;s stupid.  The whole thing is ridiculous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, those were the main reasons given to the &#8220;american people&#8221; in speeches.  But oversimplified speeches are just the annoying part of having a democracy with an uneducated populace.  If you are educated, you have to put up with them, and look deeper.  The Bush administration and the think tanks behind it were saying lots of other things all along, not least of which was the *legality* of the war, which nobody ever talks about (except to say it was somehow illegal&#8230; which is flabbergasting).  But Iraq was in flagrant violation of multiple UN resolutions, and really it was 100% clear tha an invasion was legal when Saddam finally kicked out the last of the inspectors during Clinton&#8217;s term.  Unfortunately Clinton got distracted by the Lewinsky scandal, or for whatever reason decided not to do anything about ir other than a few cruise missiles (if I remember aright), and the legacy of Saddam flaunting international law at will began.  Conservatives thought that when the US (and its allies) say something, it should carry meaning.  We spent a lot of time trying to convince the UN to uphold its own resolutions, and when finally it became clear they wouldn&#8217;t, we did it ourself.  If Bush sr. had expected the UN to become such a gelatanous organization, I think he would have done things differently after the first gulf war.  Anyway, this is an example of one of the issues that was seriously discussed; there was also talk about democratising the middle east for its own stability, enforcing human rights (see especially the introduction to that document I linked to), and probably other causes as well.  But WMD (and the whole world believed he had WMD, from the way he was acting, even though we most certainly lied about having *proof*) was but one cause among many.</p>
<p>But even if it was the only argument, how does the fact that it wouldn&#8217;t work back on us mean we shouldn&#8217;t have used it?  The whole idea of the cartoon is preposterous.  If somebody wanted to invade the US, it&#8217;d probably be because we are a global hegemon and they consider it a danger to security and freedom to let us continue to have such influence.  Do you think the anti-war people in that county (let&#8217;s say it&#8217;s sri lanka) would make cartoons, saying &#8220;Imagine if somebody called us a global hegemon and said we were a threat to freedom and security?&#8221;.  No, it&#8217;s stupid.  The whole thing is ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>By: Chinmaya Sheth</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20399</link>
		<dc:creator>Chinmaya Sheth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 03:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20399</guid>
		<description>David, I know I can&#039;t change minds, but we all know that the main reasons given for the war were WMDs and links to terrorism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I know I can&#8217;t change minds, but we all know that the main reasons given for the war were WMDs and links to terrorism?</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20398</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 23:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20398</guid>
		<description>Mark,

Perhaps I have been listening to a different Bush administration than you have.  I certainly have, if you&#039;ve been going on Bush&#039;s silly speeches designed for illiterate america.

If you want to learn more about the way the Bush administration really thinks, and especially how it thought leading up to Iraq, you could start &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  This document was released about a year after September 11.

As for the politics on this blog, I guess I shouldn&#039;t have used the word &quot;vote&quot;, but I was referring to Sean&#039;s lurker day post where he asked people to comment on the blog.  To my memory--and a quick scan verified this at leats in part--there were quite a few negative comments about the politics here.

-David

p.s., haha, I just read my original post.  I shouldn&#039;t have said &#039;vote&#039;; and I certainly shouldn&#039;t said &#039;overwhelming&#039;.  But hey, I get excited too sometimes =).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>Perhaps I have been listening to a different Bush administration than you have.  I certainly have, if you&#8217;ve been going on Bush&#8217;s silly speeches designed for illiterate america.</p>
<p>If you want to learn more about the way the Bush administration really thinks, and especially how it thought leading up to Iraq, you could start <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  This document was released about a year after September 11.</p>
<p>As for the politics on this blog, I guess I shouldn&#8217;t have used the word &#8220;vote&#8221;, but I was referring to Sean&#8217;s lurker day post where he asked people to comment on the blog.  To my memory&#8211;and a quick scan verified this at leats in part&#8211;there were quite a few negative comments about the politics here.</p>
<p>-David</p>
<p>p.s., haha, I just read my original post.  I shouldn&#8217;t have said &#8216;vote&#8217;; and I certainly shouldn&#8217;t said &#8216;overwhelming&#8217;.  But hey, I get excited too sometimes =).</p>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20400</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20400</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.glumbert.com/media/presidentswords&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;All the President&#039;s Words&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.glumbert.com/media/presidentswords" rel="nofollow">All the President&#8217;s Words</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/comment-page-1/#comment-20414</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 02:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/20/imagine-if/#comment-20414</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised that you&#039;re linking to conservative Republican propaganda cartoons.

The &quot;group of countries claiming the U.S. possessed weapons of mass destruction&quot;, etc. is obviously a reference to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  The first three panels are thus classic cold-war conservative fearmongering.

The second panel seems to imply that a dangerous country that claims to possess WMDs might actually be found to have WMDs.  Nobody to the Left of J. Edgar Cheney believes that anymore!

And the final three panels are obviously a NRA-style appeal for more private gun ownership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised that you&#8217;re linking to conservative Republican propaganda cartoons.</p>
<p>The &#8220;group of countries claiming the U.S. possessed weapons of mass destruction&#8221;, etc. is obviously a reference to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  The first three panels are thus classic cold-war conservative fearmongering.</p>
<p>The second panel seems to imply that a dangerous country that claims to possess WMDs might actually be found to have WMDs.  Nobody to the Left of J. Edgar Cheney believes that anymore!</p>
<p>And the final three panels are obviously a NRA-style appeal for more private gun ownership.</p>
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