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	<title>Comments on: Torture and Permanent Detention Bill Passes</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: The Theocracy Moves Ahead &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20782</link>
		<dc:creator>The Theocracy Moves Ahead &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20782</guid>
		<description>[...] I hesitate slightly before continuing to write negative things about the government, because you see, I am now classified as someone who, despite paying large amounts in taxes, despite being married to an American, and hence having large numbers of extended family in the U.S., despite working for an American employer, and despite loving my &#8220;Mom&#8221;, enjoying baseball, and being partial to a nice slice of apple pie, can nevertheless be whisked away without a moment&#8217;s notice, and detained indefinitely, having no right to challenge my detention. I can, in essence, be disappeared by my own government. Yes, the passing of S. 3930 - &quot;A bill to authorize trial by military commission for violations of the law of war, and for other purposes&quot; - by a 65-34 Senate vote will be judged harshly by history, should there be any of us around to do the judging. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I hesitate slightly before continuing to write negative things about the government, because you see, I am now classified as someone who, despite paying large amounts in taxes, despite being married to an American, and hence having large numbers of extended family in the U.S., despite working for an American employer, and despite loving my &#8220;Mom&#8221;, enjoying baseball, and being partial to a nice slice of apple pie, can nevertheless be whisked away without a moment&#8217;s notice, and detained indefinitely, having no right to challenge my detention. I can, in essence, be disappeared by my own government. Yes, the passing of S. 3930 &#8211; &#8220;A bill to authorize trial by military commission for violations of the law of war, and for other purposes&#8221; &#8211; by a 65-34 Senate vote will be judged harshly by history, should there be any of us around to do the judging. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Amara</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20719</link>
		<dc:creator>Amara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Oct 2006 00:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20719</guid>
		<description>Keith Olberman on &lt;a href=&quot;http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=3&amp;entry_id=10020&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Beginning of the End of America&lt;/a&gt;. Frighteningly good commentary about this topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keith Olberman on <a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=3&amp;entry_id=10020" rel="nofollow">The Beginning of the End of America</a>. Frighteningly good commentary about this topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Hafeez</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20774</link>
		<dc:creator>Hafeez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20774</guid>
		<description>Most of us do not know the history of economics of mankind...Creation of wealth,private property and all value productions were the source of HUMAN LABOUR.The origin of all kind of prosperity was human labour and still it is the same source...Here the criminal Philosopers like PLATO-ARISTOTLE changed the future real human path by Criminaly  creating slavery as just and moral.Human beings the inocents were braught in as slaves by the criminal consciousness to loot the labour of slaves and to deprive them all kind of rights as human being.These were the seeds of future crimes,wars for more human labour,to get more prosperity for more crimes and more wars.The road was set for the criminals to rule the world by criminal force.We will never be able to live like HUMAN BEINGS with out wars with human rights unless we removes the criminality of slavery...HR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of us do not know the history of economics of mankind&#8230;Creation of wealth,private property and all value productions were the source of HUMAN LABOUR.The origin of all kind of prosperity was human labour and still it is the same source&#8230;Here the criminal Philosopers like PLATO-ARISTOTLE changed the future real human path by Criminaly  creating slavery as just and moral.Human beings the inocents were braught in as slaves by the criminal consciousness to loot the labour of slaves and to deprive them all kind of rights as human being.These were the seeds of future crimes,wars for more human labour,to get more prosperity for more crimes and more wars.The road was set for the criminals to rule the world by criminal force.We will never be able to live like HUMAN BEINGS with out wars with human rights unless we removes the criminality of slavery&#8230;HR</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20773</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20773</guid>
		<description>i thought (R) Sen. John McCain voted against the bill too.  maybe i just heard wrong from somebody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i thought (R) Sen. John McCain voted against the bill too.  maybe i just heard wrong from somebody.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Harrison</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20767</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Oct 2006 03:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20767</guid>
		<description>Hey, there&#039;s small glory in outstripping donkeys, but it&#039;s a living.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, there&#8217;s small glory in outstripping donkeys, but it&#8217;s a living.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20768</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Oct 2006 02:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20768</guid>
		<description>Jim Harrison has given us a good example of why Bush Derangement Syndrome seems a reasonable diagnosis for some people.

The diagnostic criteria for this Syndrome seem to be:

 - the conviction that no intelligent, informed and rational person outside the Bush Administration could possibly agree with Bush, and that no person inside the Bush Administration holds any honest convictions on the matter of how to deal with terrorism if those convictions conform to Bush policies.  In this sense, the Syndrome shares some features with paranoid personality disorder, although limited to the political context.

- the belief that an assertion of opinion, such as the claim that &quot;terrorism tends to be self-limiting unless it wins the support of its erswhile (sic) opponents,&quot; if stated in strong enough terms and with enough contempt for skeptics, becomes a fact, and the belief that a prediction of the outcome of a policy has the same logical weight as a fact.   The Syndrome therefore shares some of the characteristics of schizoid personality disorder, notably the tendency toward magical thinking;

- a memory defect that prevents the sufferer from recognizing that President Bush&#039;s last term expires in two years, and that therefore there is no rational basis for believing that Bush&#039;s &quot;political fortunes absolutely depend on scaring the wits out of the public.&quot;  Memory also appears to be affected in other areas, such as the belief that &quot;if grown-ups were in charge the radicals in the Middle East would be marginalized in short order,&quot; a belief that requires forgetting the history of the current threat since its beginnings in the late 1920s, as well as the history of other regimes such as the Nazis and the Communists, which also offered an overarching ideological framework, a sharp delineation between the pure adherents of the ideology and all others, and an exclusively utilitarian view of the individual human being.

- in an environment where both available choices involve risks, a compulsive need to minimize to the point of insignificance the threats from one choice, &quot;What the heck do they have to offer to anybody?&quot; while exaggerating the threats from the other, Bush, precluding any rational analysis of the choices.   Jim ought to understand one of the things that the Islamists have to offer, since he derives it from his own political beliefs, and that is a certain conviction of one&#039;s superiority over other people who don&#039;t share one&#039;s views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Harrison has given us a good example of why Bush Derangement Syndrome seems a reasonable diagnosis for some people.</p>
<p>The diagnostic criteria for this Syndrome seem to be:</p>
<p> &#8211; the conviction that no intelligent, informed and rational person outside the Bush Administration could possibly agree with Bush, and that no person inside the Bush Administration holds any honest convictions on the matter of how to deal with terrorism if those convictions conform to Bush policies.  In this sense, the Syndrome shares some features with paranoid personality disorder, although limited to the political context.</p>
<p>- the belief that an assertion of opinion, such as the claim that &#8220;terrorism tends to be self-limiting unless it wins the support of its erswhile (sic) opponents,&#8221; if stated in strong enough terms and with enough contempt for skeptics, becomes a fact, and the belief that a prediction of the outcome of a policy has the same logical weight as a fact.   The Syndrome therefore shares some of the characteristics of schizoid personality disorder, notably the tendency toward magical thinking;</p>
<p>- a memory defect that prevents the sufferer from recognizing that President Bush&#8217;s last term expires in two years, and that therefore there is no rational basis for believing that Bush&#8217;s &#8220;political fortunes absolutely depend on scaring the wits out of the public.&#8221;  Memory also appears to be affected in other areas, such as the belief that &#8220;if grown-ups were in charge the radicals in the Middle East would be marginalized in short order,&#8221; a belief that requires forgetting the history of the current threat since its beginnings in the late 1920s, as well as the history of other regimes such as the Nazis and the Communists, which also offered an overarching ideological framework, a sharp delineation between the pure adherents of the ideology and all others, and an exclusively utilitarian view of the individual human being.</p>
<p>- in an environment where both available choices involve risks, a compulsive need to minimize to the point of insignificance the threats from one choice, &#8220;What the heck do they have to offer to anybody?&#8221; while exaggerating the threats from the other, Bush, precluding any rational analysis of the choices.   Jim ought to understand one of the things that the Islamists have to offer, since he derives it from his own political beliefs, and that is a certain conviction of one&#8217;s superiority over other people who don&#8217;t share one&#8217;s views.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Harrison</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20769</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 23:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20769</guid>
		<description>Your guess is correct! You are one of those ignorant, stupid, fearful individuals who continue to support Bush.

Value issues aside, support for the Bush agenda is based on a misunderstanding of the facts. The threat from terrorism is real but entirely managable--terrorism tends to be self limiting unless it wins the tacit support of its erswhile opponents. Bush would have to be nuts to allow a real victory over Islamic terrorism since his political fortunes absolutely depend upon scaring the wits out of the public. If his administration defeats terrorism, it will be by mistake. On the other hand, if grownups were in charge, the radicals in the Middle East would be marginalized in short order. What the heck do they have to offer to anybody?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your guess is correct! You are one of those ignorant, stupid, fearful individuals who continue to support Bush.</p>
<p>Value issues aside, support for the Bush agenda is based on a misunderstanding of the facts. The threat from terrorism is real but entirely managable&#8211;terrorism tends to be self limiting unless it wins the tacit support of its erswhile opponents. Bush would have to be nuts to allow a real victory over Islamic terrorism since his political fortunes absolutely depend upon scaring the wits out of the public. If his administration defeats terrorism, it will be by mistake. On the other hand, if grownups were in charge, the radicals in the Middle East would be marginalized in short order. What the heck do they have to offer to anybody?</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20770</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 22:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20770</guid>
		<description>Oops!  Last post was incomplete.

Only an ALIEN UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT is subject to trial by military tribunal.   Could Sean or one of the posters who is opposed to trying such indviduals by military tribunal make clear what their alternative would be?  A criminal trial with full consitutional protections including taxpayer funded defense counsel, Miranda warnings upon capture, and full discovery of all intelligence upon which their capture was based?

Sorry, folks.  I don&#039;t remember Lincoln, Wilson, FDR or Truman granting such rights, so why the Bush hatred for his failure to do so?

And anyone who is offended by legislation attempting to define torture hasn&#039;t read much legislation.  The whole point of a law is to make as clear as possible what it applies to and what it doesn&#039;t.  You may think waterboarding or sleep deprivation is torture, even though I&#039;ve heard both are used in training our own soldiers and new parents are routinely subjected to sleep deprivation, but not everyone would agree with you.  A non-believer touching the Qu&#039;ran with ungloved hands may be torture to some people, while forbidding it might be considered pandering to bigotry by others.

As for the historical review devoted to addressing whether the United States is good or evil, or overall has acted for good more than for evil, or whatever:   A lot of interesting points are being made, but I am reminded of discussions I have had with suicidal people.  There&#039;s a strong underlying premise that if parts of your life really suck, it&#039;s not worth living.  A lot of the arguments about Amercia&#039;s problems seem more to be justifications for why it should not consider itself worth saving, especially if saving itself entails any unpleasantness.

I guess I am one of those ignorant, stupid, fearful individuals who continue to support Bush.  That&#039;s because he&#039;s President and he seems to be more interested in making war on Al Qaeda than on Walmart, and he seems to have a plausible though not guaranteed long-term strategy for diminishing their number and appeal to their co-religionists.   I have plenty of complaints about how he&#039;s done his job, but they are largely irrelevant because I don&#039;t think the alternative I had in the last election, John Kerry, would have done as well, and there were, after all, only two choices.

In the final analysis, there usually only are two choices - [metaphor alert] drown or come up for air.  When people complain bitterly how the country is going to hell in a handbasket because Bush is engaging in the very mildest versions of actions FDR is still lauded for having taken to extremes, I can&#039;t help thinking that drowning is only way we&#039;ll satisfy some of them that we are pure enough.  Much like the people who complain about how we squandered all of the world&#039;s goodwill by going to war after 9-11.  We could surely have kept that goodwill - if we&#039;d kept on dying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops!  Last post was incomplete.</p>
<p>Only an ALIEN UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT is subject to trial by military tribunal.   Could Sean or one of the posters who is opposed to trying such indviduals by military tribunal make clear what their alternative would be?  A criminal trial with full consitutional protections including taxpayer funded defense counsel, Miranda warnings upon capture, and full discovery of all intelligence upon which their capture was based?</p>
<p>Sorry, folks.  I don&#8217;t remember Lincoln, Wilson, FDR or Truman granting such rights, so why the Bush hatred for his failure to do so?</p>
<p>And anyone who is offended by legislation attempting to define torture hasn&#8217;t read much legislation.  The whole point of a law is to make as clear as possible what it applies to and what it doesn&#8217;t.  You may think waterboarding or sleep deprivation is torture, even though I&#8217;ve heard both are used in training our own soldiers and new parents are routinely subjected to sleep deprivation, but not everyone would agree with you.  A non-believer touching the Qu&#8217;ran with ungloved hands may be torture to some people, while forbidding it might be considered pandering to bigotry by others.</p>
<p>As for the historical review devoted to addressing whether the United States is good or evil, or overall has acted for good more than for evil, or whatever:   A lot of interesting points are being made, but I am reminded of discussions I have had with suicidal people.  There&#8217;s a strong underlying premise that if parts of your life really suck, it&#8217;s not worth living.  A lot of the arguments about Amercia&#8217;s problems seem more to be justifications for why it should not consider itself worth saving, especially if saving itself entails any unpleasantness.</p>
<p>I guess I am one of those ignorant, stupid, fearful individuals who continue to support Bush.  That&#8217;s because he&#8217;s President and he seems to be more interested in making war on Al Qaeda than on Walmart, and he seems to have a plausible though not guaranteed long-term strategy for diminishing their number and appeal to their co-religionists.   I have plenty of complaints about how he&#8217;s done his job, but they are largely irrelevant because I don&#8217;t think the alternative I had in the last election, John Kerry, would have done as well, and there were, after all, only two choices.</p>
<p>In the final analysis, there usually only are two choices &#8211; [metaphor alert] drown or come up for air.  When people complain bitterly how the country is going to hell in a handbasket because Bush is engaging in the very mildest versions of actions FDR is still lauded for having taken to extremes, I can&#8217;t help thinking that drowning is only way we&#8217;ll satisfy some of them that we are pure enough.  Much like the people who complain about how we squandered all of the world&#8217;s goodwill by going to war after 9-11.  We could surely have kept that goodwill &#8211; if we&#8217;d kept on dying.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20771</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20771</guid>
		<description>If facts are of any interest on this blog (and they so seldom are in political debate) Sean&#039;s original post on the new law is factually incorrect in a very significant way.

U.S. citizens are NOT subject to being tried by military commission.  The law specifically defines the persons subject to trial by military tribunals as ALIEN unlawful enemy combatants (at Section 948c) and defines alien as a person who is not a citizen of the United States (at Section 948a).

A lawful enemy combatant is not subject to trial by military tribunal either.

Only an ALIEN UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If facts are of any interest on this blog (and they so seldom are in political debate) Sean&#8217;s original post on the new law is factually incorrect in a very significant way.</p>
<p>U.S. citizens are NOT subject to being tried by military commission.  The law specifically defines the persons subject to trial by military tribunals as ALIEN unlawful enemy combatants (at Section 948c) and defines alien as a person who is not a citizen of the United States (at Section 948a).</p>
<p>A lawful enemy combatant is not subject to trial by military tribunal either.</p>
<p>Only an ALIEN UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT</p>
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		<title>By: Critter Proof &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/comment-page-1/#comment-20775</link>
		<dc:creator>Critter Proof &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 21:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-20775</guid>
		<description>[...] Given the distressing and depressing news emanating from the US Congress the past couple of days, it&#8217;s time for a slightly more upbeat post. A success story, if you will. A serious problem that has been solved. Yes folks, it&#8217;s come to this: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Given the distressing and depressing news emanating from the US Congress the past couple of days, it&#8217;s time for a slightly more upbeat post. A success story, if you will. A serious problem that has been solved. Yes folks, it&#8217;s come to this: [...]</p>
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