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	<title>Comments on: Unsolicited Advice, Part Three:  Choosing an Undergraduate School</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Maharishi Mathematics &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21276</link>
		<dc:creator>Maharishi Mathematics &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21276</guid>
		<description>[...] It&#8217;s that time of year when eager young students are deciding where to embark on, or to continue, their higher educations. You can see our advice-giving posts on choosing an undergraduate school and choosing a graduate school. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] It&#8217;s that time of year when eager young students are deciding where to embark on, or to continue, their higher educations. You can see our advice-giving posts on choosing an undergraduate school and choosing a graduate school. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21233</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21233</guid>
		<description>Not everybody can go to a school in those 4 categories.  Some people can&#039;t afford it, or are limited in geographic area, or didn&#039;t get a strong enough high school education to be admitted.  There are lots of smart, motivated students at 2 year colleges and non-name 4 year colleges.  Should they just give up?

Considering that minorities are overrepresented in the lower income brackets as compared to their overall percentage in the population, we may be hitting on one reason that they are underrepresented in physics.  Your advice is great for the middle class, which was definately overrepresented in all my college experiences.  What can people who don&#039;t have that advantage do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not everybody can go to a school in those 4 categories.  Some people can&#8217;t afford it, or are limited in geographic area, or didn&#8217;t get a strong enough high school education to be admitted.  There are lots of smart, motivated students at 2 year colleges and non-name 4 year colleges.  Should they just give up?</p>
<p>Considering that minorities are overrepresented in the lower income brackets as compared to their overall percentage in the population, we may be hitting on one reason that they are underrepresented in physics.  Your advice is great for the middle class, which was definately overrepresented in all my college experiences.  What can people who don&#8217;t have that advantage do?</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21234</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21234</guid>
		<description>One thing you may want to check out is how competitive and/or stressful a particular university is.  If you&#039;re the type of person who can&#039;t handle stress very well at all, then you may very well be better off at a school which is more &quot;laid back&quot;.  On the other hand, if you thrive in a really stressful and/or competitive environment, then you may want to be at a top university with other &quot;type A&#039; personality types.

Many places will use freshman and sophomore courses in physics and math as their &quot;weedout&quot; courses, where their intent is to flunk out and eliminate as many engineering and science majors as possible.  (I suppose most majors will have their own set of &quot;weedout&quot; courses).  I&#039;ve known many physics and math majors who really hated freshman physics and math courses, for this very reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing you may want to check out is how competitive and/or stressful a particular university is.  If you&#8217;re the type of person who can&#8217;t handle stress very well at all, then you may very well be better off at a school which is more &#8220;laid back&#8221;.  On the other hand, if you thrive in a really stressful and/or competitive environment, then you may want to be at a top university with other &#8220;type A&#8217; personality types.</p>
<p>Many places will use freshman and sophomore courses in physics and math as their &#8220;weedout&#8221; courses, where their intent is to flunk out and eliminate as many engineering and science majors as possible.  (I suppose most majors will have their own set of &#8220;weedout&#8221; courses).  I&#8217;ve known many physics and math majors who really hated freshman physics and math courses, for this very reason.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott H.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21235</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21235</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Because there is no benefit in arriving at a decent grad school without this basic knowledge, I would rule out any undergrad schools (typically LACs and the more bureaucratic LSSs) that don&#039;t offer grad courses.&lt;/i&gt;

This is contrary to the evidence I see as faculty at an STS: Many of our best graduate students, and many of our best recent graduates, did not have access to grad courses as undergrads.  They take a few extra courses at the beginning, get a good research program going; life goes on.  The lack of grad courses in their undergrad years is completely irrelevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Because there is no benefit in arriving at a decent grad school without this basic knowledge, I would rule out any undergrad schools (typically LACs and the more bureaucratic LSSs) that don&#8217;t offer grad courses.</i></p>
<p>This is contrary to the evidence I see as faculty at an STS: Many of our best graduate students, and many of our best recent graduates, did not have access to grad courses as undergrads.  They take a few extra courses at the beginning, get a good research program going; life goes on.  The lack of grad courses in their undergrad years is completely irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Belizean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21236</link>
		<dc:creator>Belizean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21236</guid>
		<description>Although this point has been made before, I think that it should be emphasized.  Lack of access to graduate-level physics courses is an enormous disadvantage.

In my day very basic physics such as quantum field theory and general relativity were only available in graduate courses.  A huge fraction of my course load during my junior and senior years were grad courses.

Because there is no benefit in arriving at a decent grad school without this basic knowledge, I would rule out any undergrad schools (typically LACs and the more bureaucratic LSSs) that don&#039;t offer grad courses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although this point has been made before, I think that it should be emphasized.  Lack of access to graduate-level physics courses is an enormous disadvantage.</p>
<p>In my day very basic physics such as quantum field theory and general relativity were only available in graduate courses.  A huge fraction of my course load during my junior and senior years were grad courses.</p>
<p>Because there is no benefit in arriving at a decent grad school without this basic knowledge, I would rule out any undergrad schools (typically LACs and the more bureaucratic LSSs) that don&#8217;t offer grad courses.</p>
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		<title>By: Cygnus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21237</link>
		<dc:creator>Cygnus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21237</guid>
		<description>Sean, how about a new edition of &lt;i&gt;&lt;strike&gt;Un&lt;/strike&gt;solicited Advice&lt;/i&gt; for Grad school, again this year?  With all the new experience and added insights over the year?

Would be really helpful to some of us I&#039;m sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean, how about a new edition of <i><strike>Un</strike>solicited Advice</i> for Grad school, again this year?  With all the new experience and added insights over the year?</p>
<p>Would be really helpful to some of us I&#8217;m sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21270</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21270</guid>
		<description>JMG3Y, none of those criteria is really much good for judging the research in a physics department.  Certainly not Nobel laureates or textbooks (the latter of which are remarkably similar).  Better to look at something like the NRC rankings:

http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/area33.html

Of course, what you care about is what life is like as an undergrad, not how good the research is; but that&#039;s much harder to quantify.  You really have to visit the schools and see for yourself.  Talking to other students is by far the best gauge, but you need to talk to several and average over the individual inclinations (or, even better, find someone whose inclinations match with yours).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JMG3Y, none of those criteria is really much good for judging the research in a physics department.  Certainly not Nobel laureates or textbooks (the latter of which are remarkably similar).  Better to look at something like the NRC rankings:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/area33.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/area33.html</a></p>
<p>Of course, what you care about is what life is like as an undergrad, not how good the research is; but that&#8217;s much harder to quantify.  You really have to visit the schools and see for yourself.  Talking to other students is by far the best gauge, but you need to talk to several and average over the individual inclinations (or, even better, find someone whose inclinations match with yours).</p>
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		<title>By: Count Iblis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21271</link>
		<dc:creator>Count Iblis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21271</guid>
		<description>I think that the best thing 15 year olds can do if they want to study physics, is to study the undergraduate courses on their own and then go straight to grad school. You don&#039;t need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to learn relativity, statistical mechanics, electrodynamics quantum mechanics, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the best thing 15 year olds can do if they want to study physics, is to study the undergraduate courses on their own and then go straight to grad school. You don&#8217;t need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to learn relativity, statistical mechanics, electrodynamics quantum mechanics, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: thm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21272</link>
		<dc:creator>thm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21272</guid>
		<description>As a general rule: all elite private universities, elite liberal arts colleges, and selective public universities can provide sufficient preparation for the top physics grad schools. The rankings published by, e.g. US News, are useful if you consider the rankings to have error bars of 5 or 6 places. Whether an undergrad eventually becomes a successful physicist has far more to do with what the student does in the program than with the program itself: the students make the program, not the other way around.

That said, schools with the top physics grad programs can be relied on to prepare undergraduates for their own grad programs. For liberal arts colleges, look at the size of the physics faculty and the number of physics majors. There is a feedback loop, where liberal arts faculty send their best undergrads to and hire new faculty from their own graduate alma maters. So check where the faculty got their graduate degrees from.

The top part of the top tier of physics graduate programs are, roughly in geographic order: Stanford, Berkeley, Caltech, Illinois, Chicago, Cornell, Princeton, Harvard, MIT. Also in the top tier are UCLA, UCSB, Texas, Michigan, Maryland and probably a few others depending on one&#039;s criteria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a general rule: all elite private universities, elite liberal arts colleges, and selective public universities can provide sufficient preparation for the top physics grad schools. The rankings published by, e.g. US News, are useful if you consider the rankings to have error bars of 5 or 6 places. Whether an undergrad eventually becomes a successful physicist has far more to do with what the student does in the program than with the program itself: the students make the program, not the other way around.</p>
<p>That said, schools with the top physics grad programs can be relied on to prepare undergraduates for their own grad programs. For liberal arts colleges, look at the size of the physics faculty and the number of physics majors. There is a feedback loop, where liberal arts faculty send their best undergrads to and hire new faculty from their own graduate alma maters. So check where the faculty got their graduate degrees from.</p>
<p>The top part of the top tier of physics graduate programs are, roughly in geographic order: Stanford, Berkeley, Caltech, Illinois, Chicago, Cornell, Princeton, Harvard, MIT. Also in the top tier are UCLA, UCSB, Texas, Michigan, Maryland and probably a few others depending on one&#8217;s criteria.</p>
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		<title>By: JMG3Y</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/comment-page-1/#comment-21273</link>
		<dc:creator>JMG3Y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/16/unsolicited-advice-part-three-choosing-an-undergraduate-school/#comment-21273</guid>
		<description>So how does one identify a truly elite program from the entering freshman&#039;s perspective? As I suspect being at an elite school is not a sufficient condition, what makes a program truly elite and can this be assessed through department and faculty websites? The number of Nobel Laureates in Physics? The texts used? If so, what are the positive and negative indicator texts? Some measure of productivity and impact? The number of papers published per faculty? Number of citations per faculty or the top 5 faculty in the ISI Web of Science? Indicators or opportunity, such as the number of undergrads on papers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So how does one identify a truly elite program from the entering freshman&#8217;s perspective? As I suspect being at an elite school is not a sufficient condition, what makes a program truly elite and can this be assessed through department and faculty websites? The number of Nobel Laureates in Physics? The texts used? If so, what are the positive and negative indicator texts? Some measure of productivity and impact? The number of papers published per faculty? Number of citations per faculty or the top 5 faculty in the ISI Web of Science? Indicators or opportunity, such as the number of undergrads on papers?</p>
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