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	<title>Comments on: Economics vs. Physics Love-Off</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: z.king</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22758</link>
		<dc:creator>z.king</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22758</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Unfortunately â€&quot; and to a signficant extent this is our own fault â€&quot; it&#039;s not always clear to the person on the street which ideas are speculative and which have come to be accepted, nor is it clear that we have good reasons even for the wildest speculations.&lt;/i&gt;

Maybe it&#039;s because you physicists have only one label, &quot;science.&quot; No physicist is going to stress to the public that some significant claim of theirs is speculative. It&#039;s only after a claim has fallen into disrepute that a physicist will come out and spin it in a negative light. Up until that point, it&#039;s spun in total confidence.

And good reasons aren&#039;t good enough to blur the distinction between speculation and science. So, yeah, it&#039;s your and your colleagues fault.

That&#039;s the beauty of math, isn&#039;t, compared to physics? In math they have words like conjecture, that they use liberally. Mathematicians don&#039;t get away with nothing, no matter what good reasons they have to believe some conjecture is true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Unfortunately â€&#8221; and to a signficant extent this is our own fault â€&#8221; it&#8217;s not always clear to the person on the street which ideas are speculative and which have come to be accepted, nor is it clear that we have good reasons even for the wildest speculations.</i></p>
<p>Maybe it&#8217;s because you physicists have only one label, &#8220;science.&#8221; No physicist is going to stress to the public that some significant claim of theirs is speculative. It&#8217;s only after a claim has fallen into disrepute that a physicist will come out and spin it in a negative light. Up until that point, it&#8217;s spun in total confidence.</p>
<p>And good reasons aren&#8217;t good enough to blur the distinction between speculation and science. So, yeah, it&#8217;s your and your colleagues fault.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the beauty of math, isn&#8217;t, compared to physics? In math they have words like conjecture, that they use liberally. Mathematicians don&#8217;t get away with nothing, no matter what good reasons they have to believe some conjecture is true.</p>
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		<title>By: at</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22757</link>
		<dc:creator>at</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22757</guid>
		<description>[...] db wrote in http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] db wrote in <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: db</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22756</link>
		<dc:creator>db</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22756</guid>
		<description>The statements &quot;We physicists talk about crazy things all the time â€&quot; extra dimensions, black holes, quark confinement, wavefunction collapse, conservation of momentum, the Earth moving around the Sun&quot; allied to &quot;they are hypotheses that we&#039;re driven to by the constraints put upon us by the data&quot; epitomise the problem so many everyday physicists have with String Theory, namely the subtle and not so subtle attempts to lump this purely speculative exercise in with well-established physical theories and in so doing, attempt to buy some kind of credibility by association. It&#039;s very unfortunate, because the public is being lulled into believing that String Theory is motivated by experimental data. Why not tell them the truth, namely that this is Not Yet Physics, and that not a shred of experimental data exists to confirm or refute its findings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The statements &#8220;We physicists talk about crazy things all the time â€&#8221; extra dimensions, black holes, quark confinement, wavefunction collapse, conservation of momentum, the Earth moving around the Sun&#8221; allied to &#8220;they are hypotheses that we&#8217;re driven to by the constraints put upon us by the data&#8221; epitomise the problem so many everyday physicists have with String Theory, namely the subtle and not so subtle attempts to lump this purely speculative exercise in with well-established physical theories and in so doing, attempt to buy some kind of credibility by association. It&#8217;s very unfortunate, because the public is being lulled into believing that String Theory is motivated by experimental data. Why not tell them the truth, namely that this is Not Yet Physics, and that not a shred of experimental data exists to confirm or refute its findings?</p>
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		<title>By: GP1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22739</link>
		<dc:creator>GP1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 01:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22739</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;We phyisicsts talk about crazy things all the time--extra dimensions, black holes, quark confinement, wavefunction collapse, conservations of momentum, the Earth moving around the Sun.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am trying to make sense of this statement. Are physicists talking about a crazy thing such as &quot;the Earth moving around the sun?&quot; I just don&#039;t understand if this is a revisionist history trying to make Coperniucus a physicist or if modern Doctors of Philosophy who call themselves physicists are still debating if the earth moved around the sun? Strange.

But the claim that &quot;extra dimensions&quot; is an &quot;hypothesis that we&#039;re driven to by the constrains put upon by the data&quot; is simply a lie. I hope that Sean will correct this error.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>We phyisicsts talk about crazy things all the time&#8211;extra dimensions, black holes, quark confinement, wavefunction collapse, conservations of momentum, the Earth moving around the Sun.</p></blockquote>
<p>I am trying to make sense of this statement. Are physicists talking about a crazy thing such as &#8220;the Earth moving around the sun?&#8221; I just don&#8217;t understand if this is a revisionist history trying to make Coperniucus a physicist or if modern Doctors of Philosophy who call themselves physicists are still debating if the earth moved around the sun? Strange.</p>
<p>But the claim that &#8220;extra dimensions&#8221; is an &#8220;hypothesis that we&#8217;re driven to by the constrains put upon by the data&#8221; is simply a lie. I hope that Sean will correct this error.</p>
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		<title>By: thm</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22755</link>
		<dc:creator>thm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22755</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s climatologists, not economists, who can complain rightly about treatment in public. If only the policymakers who have such great skepticism for global warming directed a bit of that skepticism at economics...

Way too much economic analysis, as far as I can tell, involves taking a multivariate data set, never plotting it, running it through a regression with a generic linear combination of variables, and announcing that the correlation coefficients show how some factor &quot;explains&quot; some fraction of the variation. Sort of the opposite of &quot;plot data as you take it&quot; and cautioning that a curve is only a &quot;guide to the eye&quot; or that a formula is purely &quot;phenomenological.&quot; I&#039;d like to see econometric analysis done on some data from classic physics experiments. How about trying to understand a transistor from an econometric analysis of I-V data? Then design an amplifier based on the economic model, and see how it sounds..

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.edwardtufte.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Edward Tufte&lt;/a&gt; has written a very &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0001Zl&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;nice analysis&lt;/a&gt; of a particular piece of Economists&#039; reasoning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s climatologists, not economists, who can complain rightly about treatment in public. If only the policymakers who have such great skepticism for global warming directed a bit of that skepticism at economics&#8230;</p>
<p>Way too much economic analysis, as far as I can tell, involves taking a multivariate data set, never plotting it, running it through a regression with a generic linear combination of variables, and announcing that the correlation coefficients show how some factor &#8220;explains&#8221; some fraction of the variation. Sort of the opposite of &#8220;plot data as you take it&#8221; and cautioning that a curve is only a &#8220;guide to the eye&#8221; or that a formula is purely &#8220;phenomenological.&#8221; I&#8217;d like to see econometric analysis done on some data from classic physics experiments. How about trying to understand a transistor from an econometric analysis of I-V data? Then design an amplifier based on the economic model, and see how it sounds..</p>
<p><a href="http://www.edwardtufte.com" rel="nofollow">Edward Tufte</a> has written a very <a href="http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0001Zl" rel="nofollow">nice analysis</a> of a particular piece of Economists&#8217; reasoning.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert the Red</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22740</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert the Red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22740</guid>
		<description>You should see this cartoon:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://zippythepinhead.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&amp;Product_Code=5-Dec-06&amp;Category_Code=d2006&amp;Product_Count=4&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Zippy and Physics&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should see this cartoon:</p>
<p><a href="http://zippythepinhead.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&amp;Product_Code=5-Dec-06&amp;Category_Code=d2006&amp;Product_Count=4" rel="nofollow">Zippy and Physics</a></p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22742</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 13:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22742</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s put it this way - how many of you will voluntarily take a pay cut, or have no raise, so that your employer can afford to hire more people?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s put it this way &#8211; how many of you will voluntarily take a pay cut, or have no raise, so that your employer can afford to hire more people?</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22741</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 13:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22741</guid>
		<description>A modest increase in the minimum wage will be consumed, not saved, with the  money likely spent in businesses that provide minimum wage jobs.

Anyway, when one sees how the Fed manipulates interest rates, e.g., raising them when the economy reaches &quot;full employment&quot; with an unemployment rate of around 4%; how workers&#039; wages are considered to be inflationary but corporate profits are not - despite productivity increases, and how glibly the Fed ignores asset inflation, first with the stock market during the late 90s and then with the housing market subsequently,  then one quite unapologetically can say, screw this, the system is not run for the good of the country, but for the good of those who have power; and right now the constituents of the Democrats have power.   One cannot be the only part of the democracy that is not shouting &quot;me, me, me, me&quot; and looking out for the general interest.  Either everyone looks out for everyone; or else, let the competition of the various factions decide which &quot;me&quot; gets its way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A modest increase in the minimum wage will be consumed, not saved, with the  money likely spent in businesses that provide minimum wage jobs.</p>
<p>Anyway, when one sees how the Fed manipulates interest rates, e.g., raising them when the economy reaches &#8220;full employment&#8221; with an unemployment rate of around 4%; how workers&#8217; wages are considered to be inflationary but corporate profits are not &#8211; despite productivity increases, and how glibly the Fed ignores asset inflation, first with the stock market during the late 90s and then with the housing market subsequently,  then one quite unapologetically can say, screw this, the system is not run for the good of the country, but for the good of those who have power; and right now the constituents of the Democrats have power.   One cannot be the only part of the democracy that is not shouting &#8220;me, me, me, me&#8221; and looking out for the general interest.  Either everyone looks out for everyone; or else, let the competition of the various factions decide which &#8220;me&#8221; gets its way.</p>
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		<title>By: Haelfix</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22738</link>
		<dc:creator>Haelfix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:34:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22738</guid>
		<description>More economists than not are against the minimum wage, and I suspect have a fairly nuanced and detailed view of the argument not found on this bulletin board.

The data is notoriously difficult to pin down on this and many other economic problems.  Its quite easy to find cases where a raise in the minimum wage had no effect on the unemployment rate (and negligable inflationary pressure), and viceversa.  Then productivity enters the equation and so forth.  Etc etc.  It gets detailed and complex rapidly, which is why I defer my opinion to the experts and the extensive peer reviewed literature on the subject.  Its their call not mine, and frankly I like it that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More economists than not are against the minimum wage, and I suspect have a fairly nuanced and detailed view of the argument not found on this bulletin board.</p>
<p>The data is notoriously difficult to pin down on this and many other economic problems.  Its quite easy to find cases where a raise in the minimum wage had no effect on the unemployment rate (and negligable inflationary pressure), and viceversa.  Then productivity enters the equation and so forth.  Etc etc.  It gets detailed and complex rapidly, which is why I defer my opinion to the experts and the extensive peer reviewed literature on the subject.  Its their call not mine, and frankly I like it that way.</p>
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		<title>By: bittergradstudent</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/comment-page-1/#comment-22737</link>
		<dc:creator>bittergradstudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/12/05/economics-vs-physics-love-off/#comment-22737</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;d probably rank conservation of energy/momentum above the non-decrease of entropy.

I do think that a better example would have been &quot;free trade improves economies&quot; which people will still argue about</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;d probably rank conservation of energy/momentum above the non-decrease of entropy.</p>
<p>I do think that a better example would have been &#8220;free trade improves economies&#8221; which people will still argue about</p>
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