Comments on: The Tremulous Punditosphere http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/ Random samplings from a universe of ideas. Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:04:03 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: TxtEdMacs http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25889 TxtEdMacs Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:29:34 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25889 I think you have not given bloggers sufficient credit - they can and do exceed the conventional press. Do not take my word for it, however, here is a quote taken from the Daily Kos pertaining to blog coverage of the Libby trial: " ... former chair of the NYU journalism program) Jay Rosen marvels at their accomplishment, and says their coverage bested the traditional media's efforts." Followed by his actual comments: " FDL had more people on the story (six contributors, all housed together). They cared more about documenting every turn. They knew more about the case because they had been writing about it for longer, and they didn't want to disappoint their supporters. But wait a minute: bloggers do views, not news, right? They're like a giant op-ed page, but without decorum. Bloggers are parasitic on reporting that originates elsewhere. Bloggers have an ax to grind, so their reports aren't going to be reliable. Besides, bloggers don't do reporting, really. Their trade is opinion ("...and don't get me wrong, I think that's great.") These ideas are "fixed" points for a lot of journalists. And the example of Firedoglake at the Libby trial disconfirms them all. It was the most basic kind of journalism imaginable. You're my eyes and ears, Christy. Tell me what happened today. When it came time to interpret, to get inside the heads of the key actors, they rose to that challenge too. (Here's video of FDL's Jane Hamsher, Christy Hardin Smith and Marcy Wheeler after closing arguments.) [...] [Marcy's] Anatomy of Deceit was the best primer available for the trial, in my opinion [...] "Even as they exploit the newest technologies, the Libby trial bloggers are a throwback to a journalistic style of decades ago, when many reporters made no pretense of political neutrality," wrote Scott Shane in a New York Times feature (Feb. 15). "Compared with the sober, neutral drudges of the establishment press, the bloggers are class clowns and crusaders, satirists and scolds." True, and this is part of their appeal. They also recorded more of the event in "just the facts" style than the neutrals in the establishment press. So who's the drudge of what is news? I'm just advising Newsroom Joe and Jill: make room for FDL in your own ideas about what's coming on, news-wise. Don't let your own formula (blog=opinion) fake you out. A conspiracy of the like minded to find out what happened when the national news media isn't inclined to tell us might be way more practical than you think." Here is the link so that you can read it yourself: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/3/12/13111/5666 Bloggers have covered stories well in advance of the regular press and in too many cases did it better, despite their lack of resources. Pretty sad state. I think you have not given bloggers sufficient credit – they can and do exceed the conventional press. Do not take my word for it, however, here is a quote taken from the Daily Kos pertaining to blog coverage of the Libby trial: ” … former chair of the NYU journalism program) Jay Rosen marvels at their accomplishment, and says their coverage bested the traditional media’s efforts.”

Followed by his actual comments: ” FDL had more people on the story (six contributors, all housed together). They cared more about documenting every turn. They knew more about the case because they had been writing about it for longer, and they didn’t want to disappoint their supporters.

But wait a minute: bloggers do views, not news, right? They’re like a giant op-ed page, but without decorum. Bloggers are parasitic on reporting that originates elsewhere. Bloggers have an ax to grind, so their reports aren’t going to be reliable. Besides, bloggers don’t do reporting, really. Their trade is opinion (”…and don’t get me wrong, I think that’s great.”) These ideas are “fixed” points for a lot of journalists. And the example of Firedoglake at the Libby trial disconfirms them all.

It was the most basic kind of journalism imaginable. You’re my eyes and ears, Christy. Tell me what happened today. When it came time to interpret, to get inside the heads of the key actors, they rose to that challenge too. (Here’s video of FDL’s Jane Hamsher, Christy Hardin Smith and Marcy Wheeler after closing arguments.) [...]

[Marcy's] Anatomy of Deceit was the best primer available for the trial, in my opinion [...]

“Even as they exploit the newest technologies, the Libby trial bloggers are a throwback to a journalistic style of decades ago, when many reporters made no pretense of political neutrality,” wrote Scott Shane in a New York Times feature (Feb. 15). “Compared with the sober, neutral drudges of the establishment press, the bloggers are class clowns and crusaders, satirists and scolds.”

True, and this is part of their appeal. They also recorded more of the event in “just the facts” style than the neutrals in the establishment press. So who’s the drudge of what is news? I’m just advising Newsroom Joe and Jill: make room for FDL in your own ideas about what’s coming on, news-wise. Don’t let your own formula (blog=opinion) fake you out. A conspiracy of the like minded to find out what happened when the national news media isn’t inclined to tell us might be way more practical than you think.”

Here is the link so that you can read it yourself: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/3/12/13111/5666

Bloggers have covered stories well in advance of the regular press and in too many cases did it better, despite their lack of resources. Pretty sad state.

]]> By: Sean http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25891 Sean Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:09:31 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25891 A marginally-careful reading of what I actually wrote would reveal that the "these guys" who are interested in getting Democrats elected were not the same people I suggested would make good columnists. A marginally-careful reading of what I actually wrote would reveal that the “these guys” who are interested in getting Democrats elected were not the same people I suggested would make good columnists.

]]> By: Jesse M. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25888 Jesse M. Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:52:38 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25888 Lab Lemming wrote: <i>You stated the main problem with using these guys as columnists here: "These guys are devoted to the idea of getting Democrats elected" Only the choir wants to listen to a preacher, and the traditional media likes to at least maintain the sembalance of independence.</i> and Barry responded: <i>If the MSM columnists were devoted to getting Democrats elected, then they've chosen a stranged way of doing i t- bashing Clinton for 8 years, bashing Gore, and favoring Bush. Even now, they follow public opinion, as the administration sinks.</i> Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Lab Lemming referred to the problem with using "these guys" as columnists, wasn't he/she referring to bloggers like Atrios and Kos, not to MSM columnists? The thing about being devoted to getting Democrats elected was presumably a reference to Sean's earlier comment about Atrios and Kos: <i> And anyone who has read Kos's amusing takedown of Dennis Kucinich would be hard-pressed to describe him as a rabid leftist. These guys are devoted to the idea of getting Democrats elected, not promoting some sort of anarcho-communism.</i> Lab Lemming wrote:

You stated the main problem with using these guys as columnists here:
“These guys are devoted to the idea of getting Democrats elected”
Only the choir wants to listen to a preacher, and the traditional media likes to at least maintain the sembalance of independence.

and Barry responded:

If the MSM columnists were devoted to getting Democrats elected, then they’ve chosen a stranged way of doing i t- bashing Clinton for 8 years, bashing Gore, and favoring Bush. Even now, they follow public opinion, as the administration sinks.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but when Lab Lemming referred to the problem with using “these guys” as columnists, wasn’t he/she referring to bloggers like Atrios and Kos, not to MSM columnists? The thing about being devoted to getting Democrats elected was presumably a reference to Sean’s earlier comment about Atrios and Kos:

And anyone who has read Kos’s amusing takedown of Dennis Kucinich would be hard-pressed to describe him as a rabid leftist. These guys are devoted to the idea of getting Democrats elected, not promoting some sort of anarcho-communism.

]]> By: Cherry Picks (3.10.2007) « the rumors were true http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25890 Cherry Picks (3.10.2007) « the rumors were true Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:33:26 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25890 [...] The Tremulous Punditosphere Fascinating synopsis of the divide in ability (and accountability) between pundits in the mainstream media versus those in the blogosphere. Problem is, these are subjective criteria. What typically happens in the MSM is that, by some quite mysterious process, an editor or publisher decides that some particular person with opinions would make a good pundit, whether its because of the sparkle of their prose or the cut of their jib. A column or regular TV appearances are granted. And then, amazingly, they're in forever. Rarely are columnists fired for not making sense; once they claim that status, they tend to keep it, no matter how pointless or uninformed their work turns out to be. It's as if the NBA drafted players straight out of high school, but then they never had to play a game; they all just received long-term contracts, with salaries based on how good they look during lay-up drills and dunk contests. Maureen Dowd will be taking up space on the New York Times Op-Ed pages for decades to come. [...] [...] The Tremulous Punditosphere Fascinating synopsis of the divide in ability (and accountability) between pundits in the mainstream media versus those in the blogosphere. Problem is, these are subjective criteria. What typically happens in the MSM is that, by some quite mysterious process, an editor or publisher decides that some particular person with opinions would make a good pundit, whether its because of the sparkle of their prose or the cut of their jib. A column or regular TV appearances are granted. And then, amazingly, they’re in forever. Rarely are columnists fired for not making sense; once they claim that status, they tend to keep it, no matter how pointless or uninformed their work turns out to be. It’s as if the NBA drafted players straight out of high school, but then they never had to play a game; they all just received long-term contracts, with salaries based on how good they look during lay-up drills and dunk contests. Maureen Dowd will be taking up space on the New York Times Op-Ed pages for decades to come. [...]

]]> By: mtraven http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25895 mtraven Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:20:53 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25895 Excellent post, but what's wrong with Frank Rich? Maybe you meant to say "Tom Friedman", which would make more sense. Excellent post, but what’s wrong with Frank Rich? Maybe you meant to say “Tom Friedman”, which would make more sense.

]]> By: Lab Lemming http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25894 Lab Lemming Tue, 06 Mar 2007 23:24:57 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25894 Barry, I quoted Sean's mention of the Democratic party as an example of partisanship, not as an example of liberal favoratism. As an anti-partisan, I don't care which side the shills spin for. My point is that partisanship is boring and antithetical to scientific communication. As for the ability of newspaper columns to age, that is primarily determined by the type of fish that they wrap. Barry,
I quoted Sean’s mention of the Democratic party as an example of partisanship, not as an example of liberal favoratism. As an anti-partisan, I don’t care which side the shills spin for. My point is that partisanship is boring and antithetical to scientific communication. As for the ability of newspaper columns to age, that is primarily determined by the type of fish that they wrap.

]]> By: Elliot http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25893 Elliot Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:16:57 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25893 The MSM folks have pints of hard liquor in their desk drawers, and are pissed that these wine sipping web interlopers are taking their eyeballs. The MSM folks have pints of hard liquor in their desk drawers, and are pissed that these wine sipping web interlopers are taking their eyeballs.

]]> By: Allyson http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25892 Allyson Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:57:57 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25892 I've no idea how I feel about this piece, Sean. But it does remind me that I miss Molly Ivins. I’ve no idea how I feel about this piece, Sean.

But it does remind me that I miss Molly Ivins.

]]> By: Josh http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25880 Josh Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:54:37 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25880 Even with an influx of talented pundits, the state of the ordinary MSM would not necessarily change. If given a large contract up front, even talented writers might lose motivation. A modification of the contract structure of op-ed writers, etc., however, would have a significant effect on MSMs. If writers were no longer blindly guaranteed many years and dollars, there would suddenly be room for hiring multiple talented bloggers (and if the bloggers fail to live up to their potential, they would lose a job as well). Essentially, the media would be wise to follow the model of professional sports. Even with an influx of talented pundits, the state of the ordinary MSM would not necessarily change. If given a large contract up front, even talented writers might lose motivation.
A modification of the contract structure of op-ed writers, etc., however, would have a significant effect on MSMs. If writers were no longer blindly guaranteed many years and dollars, there would suddenly be room for hiring multiple talented bloggers (and if the bloggers fail to live up to their potential, they would lose a job as well). Essentially, the media would be wise to follow the model of professional sports.

]]> By: Arun http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-25881 Arun Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:20:26 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/03/04/the-tremulous-punditosphere/#comment-25881 Frank Rich at the NYT is pretty good (one among the (diminishing) reasons as to why I subscribe to the newspaper) and I wouldn't want him replaced. Frank Rich at the NYT is pretty good (one among the (diminishing) reasons as to why I subscribe to the newspaper) and I wouldn’t want him replaced.

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