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	<title>Comments on: The difficult childhood of gravitational waves</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: murray</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-79513</link>
		<dc:creator>murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-79513</guid>
		<description>we need a good solid experimental proof that the speed of &quot;propogation of gravity&quot; is finite

if it can not be prooved absolutely to be finite then we have to assume until proven otherwise that it is as Newton reluctantly accepted - infinite

if we have to accept that it is &quot;infinite&quot; then we have to assume that, as nothing can travel faster than light, there is not traveling at all but that there is some form of physical connection - think of every mass in the universe embedded in a solid field - that can not, with current technology, be detected or, can be detected and is being detected, but can not be recognised for what it is

if Gravity is the key then consider that red-shift is not the consequence of an expanding universe but of intergalactic light propegating at considerably higher speeds than within a higher gravity density region like a galaxy (http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701130.pdf)

The trouble with our current view of the universe is that our model is too good - it&#039;s enough to explain enough to keep us happy - but it needs more attacking - we should always attack most fiercly those assumptions that form the foundations of our beliefs and the speed of light being constant is one of the biggest assumptions our thinking rests upon - if C was not a constant (except within a local gravity density) then we no longer need gravity waves, expanding universes, dark matter and a lot of other Ptolemy epicyclic solutions to our fundamental misunderstanding of the universe

murray</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>we need a good solid experimental proof that the speed of &#8220;propogation of gravity&#8221; is finite</p>
<p>if it can not be prooved absolutely to be finite then we have to assume until proven otherwise that it is as Newton reluctantly accepted &#8211; infinite</p>
<p>if we have to accept that it is &#8220;infinite&#8221; then we have to assume that, as nothing can travel faster than light, there is not traveling at all but that there is some form of physical connection &#8211; think of every mass in the universe embedded in a solid field &#8211; that can not, with current technology, be detected or, can be detected and is being detected, but can not be recognised for what it is</p>
<p>if Gravity is the key then consider that red-shift is not the consequence of an expanding universe but of intergalactic light propegating at considerably higher speeds than within a higher gravity density region like a galaxy (<a href="http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701130.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701130.pdf</a>)</p>
<p>The trouble with our current view of the universe is that our model is too good &#8211; it&#8217;s enough to explain enough to keep us happy &#8211; but it needs more attacking &#8211; we should always attack most fiercly those assumptions that form the foundations of our beliefs and the speed of light being constant is one of the biggest assumptions our thinking rests upon &#8211; if C was not a constant (except within a local gravity density) then we no longer need gravity waves, expanding universes, dark matter and a lot of other Ptolemy epicyclic solutions to our fundamental misunderstanding of the universe</p>
<p>murray</p>
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		<title>By: Einstein&#8217;s cosmic messengers &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27782</link>
		<dc:creator>Einstein&#8217;s cosmic messengers &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-27782</guid>
		<description>[...] most amazing instruments ever built. It was constructed (and is now being upgraded) to search for gravitational waves. I&#8217;ll wax poetic about it soon enough. In the interim, readers can whet their appetites with [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] most amazing instruments ever built. It was constructed (and is now being upgraded) to search for gravitational waves. I&#8217;ll wax poetic about it soon enough. In the interim, readers can whet their appetites with [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Coin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27768</link>
		<dc:creator>Coin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 18:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-27768</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;There&#039;s a general rule that all paper titles in the form of a question have a negative answer.&lt;/i&gt;

Which is funny, because all political op-ed titles in the form of a question have a &lt;i&gt;positive&lt;/i&gt; answer, usually before the end of the first paragraph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>There&#8217;s a general rule that all paper titles in the form of a question have a negative answer.</i></p>
<p>Which is funny, because all political op-ed titles in the form of a question have a <i>positive</i> answer, usually before the end of the first paragraph.</p>
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		<title>By: Binh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27775</link>
		<dc:creator>Binh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 17:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-27775</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m no scientist, so bear with me:

My understanding is that gravity bends space-time, so my question is: why does gravity need waves?

The image in my mind of how gravity works is a two-dimensional grid which becomes bent and distorted with the presence of a mass. In my analogy, the grid would now appear to have a third dimension kind of like this (very ugly) picture:

http://www.rclsoftware.org.uk/gravel/v2/img08.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m no scientist, so bear with me:</p>
<p>My understanding is that gravity bends space-time, so my question is: why does gravity need waves?</p>
<p>The image in my mind of how gravity works is a two-dimensional grid which becomes bent and distorted with the presence of a mass. In my analogy, the grid would now appear to have a third dimension kind of like this (very ugly) picture:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rclsoftware.org.uk/gravel/v2/img08.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.rclsoftware.org.uk/gravel/v2/img08.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: Paul Kamoda</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27767</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Kamoda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 00:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-27767</guid>
		<description>What I have read on GR  and related articals. Leads me to think any experments or work on time traval is really playing around with Gravity or Anti-Gravity. Since Gravity has direct effect on speed of light and time. What I never hear is one reffering to the speed of light and time as here on earth, around or star, in our part of the galixie, and out local group. Speed of light and time is alway relative to gravity. So if fabic of gravity is flat and not bent do to an object or other mass then the much faster as will as time.

Now if we could contral Gravity in say a bubble around a object, Then if object is standing still time pass more slowly if gravity in the bubble was increased. Same is true if gravity was less in the bubble time would pass faster by. Now if the object was moving at speeds that can be reached with a Ion rocket of 1/2 the speed of light and bubble is .1, .01 &amp; so on we go faster then light related to out side the bubble but inside still be going 1/2 the speed of light. It could be some kind of warp field so to speak. As we would be warping Gravity.

I think this could be done in the next 25 years if sience were to do a Mannhatten project on the control of Gavity. I do believe that the speed of light is the masurement of time. It is accepted and now proven black holes are real so then a white hole could be equelly there. also. If a gravity bubble of absolute zero was reached then the light speed would be infinit and time also. One could travel across the Universe in split second of time.

It is just a thougth but if I am right the Star are not out of reach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I have read on GR  and related articals. Leads me to think any experments or work on time traval is really playing around with Gravity or Anti-Gravity. Since Gravity has direct effect on speed of light and time. What I never hear is one reffering to the speed of light and time as here on earth, around or star, in our part of the galixie, and out local group. Speed of light and time is alway relative to gravity. So if fabic of gravity is flat and not bent do to an object or other mass then the much faster as will as time.</p>
<p>Now if we could contral Gravity in say a bubble around a object, Then if object is standing still time pass more slowly if gravity in the bubble was increased. Same is true if gravity was less in the bubble time would pass faster by. Now if the object was moving at speeds that can be reached with a Ion rocket of 1/2 the speed of light and bubble is .1, .01 &amp; so on we go faster then light related to out side the bubble but inside still be going 1/2 the speed of light. It could be some kind of warp field so to speak. As we would be warping Gravity.</p>
<p>I think this could be done in the next 25 years if sience were to do a Mannhatten project on the control of Gavity. I do believe that the speed of light is the masurement of time. It is accepted and now proven black holes are real so then a white hole could be equelly there. also. If a gravity bubble of absolute zero was reached then the light speed would be infinit and time also. One could travel across the Universe in split second of time.</p>
<p>It is just a thougth but if I am right the Star are not out of reach.</p>
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		<title>By: Matti Pitkanen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27774</link>
		<dc:creator>Matti Pitkanen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-27774</guid>
		<description>Gigantic values of the gravitational Planck constant bring in rather fascinating new elements to the notion of gravitational waves. Hence TGD based view about gravitational radiation differs in many respects dramatically from the classical view. A hugely scaled up version of the theory for the emission of radiation in atomic scale systems results.

For details see the &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://matpitka.blogspot.com/2007/04/gravitational-radiation-and-large-value.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article at my blog&lt;/A&gt;.

Matti Pitkanen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gigantic values of the gravitational Planck constant bring in rather fascinating new elements to the notion of gravitational waves. Hence TGD based view about gravitational radiation differs in many respects dramatically from the classical view. A hugely scaled up version of the theory for the emission of radiation in atomic scale systems results.</p>
<p>For details see the <a HREF="http://matpitka.blogspot.com/2007/04/gravitational-radiation-and-large-value.html" rel="nofollow">article at my blog</a>.</p>
<p>Matti Pitkanen</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Scranton</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27781</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Scranton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-27781</guid>
		<description>Ok, now that the physics stuff has been addressed, let&#039;s get to the really interesting question.  With that &quot;speed of thought&quot; quip and the &quot;I&#039;m trying to think of the other two&quot; response to the reporter&#039;s question about there only being 3 people in the world outside of Einstein who understand GR, Eddington has to be the reigning heavyweight champion in the field of being funny in the context of general relativity.  It&#039;s an obscure field of comedy, to be sure, but the mixture of humor and ego is a fine blend.  So, my question to the field is this: who has the 21st century (or even late 20th century) got to compete with this titan of the tensor-based tee-hee?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, now that the physics stuff has been addressed, let&#8217;s get to the really interesting question.  With that &#8220;speed of thought&#8221; quip and the &#8220;I&#8217;m trying to think of the other two&#8221; response to the reporter&#8217;s question about there only being 3 people in the world outside of Einstein who understand GR, Eddington has to be the reigning heavyweight champion in the field of being funny in the context of general relativity.  It&#8217;s an obscure field of comedy, to be sure, but the mixture of humor and ego is a fine blend.  So, my question to the field is this: who has the 21st century (or even late 20th century) got to compete with this titan of the tensor-based tee-hee?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Valletta</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27764</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Valletta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 05:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-27764</guid>
		<description>It may be interesting to veiw the co-ordinate diference&#039;s by looking at the applet above, and the same applet on Lubos Motle&#039;s site:
http://motls.blogspot.com/

if you use the sidebar slider to that only half the applet is visible, then the one that Sean placed clearly shows the individual particles expanding and contracting.

The applet at Lubos&#039;s site does not show this effect, by only showing half the applet at Lubos&#039;s site, you get a different co-ordinate projection, one that is 1/4 rotated, and no expansion or contraction.

I have asked Lubos to explain this defference,pv.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may be interesting to veiw the co-ordinate diference&#8217;s by looking at the applet above, and the same applet on Lubos Motle&#8217;s site:<br />
<a href="http://motls.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://motls.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p>if you use the sidebar slider to that only half the applet is visible, then the one that Sean placed clearly shows the individual particles expanding and contracting.</p>
<p>The applet at Lubos&#8217;s site does not show this effect, by only showing half the applet at Lubos&#8217;s site, you get a different co-ordinate projection, one that is 1/4 rotated, and no expansion or contraction.</p>
<p>I have asked Lubos to explain this defference,pv.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Valletta</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27773</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Valletta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 05:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-27773</guid>
		<description>Daniel, thanks for the concise explanation, especially as my question was vaguely defined.

Your explination raises some interesting points, one of which is if there is a another way to proceed?  this linked paper is in research that may be beneficial?:
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0608115

Thanks again for making a very interesting subject so informative,pv.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, thanks for the concise explanation, especially as my question was vaguely defined.</p>
<p>Your explination raises some interesting points, one of which is if there is a another way to proceed?  this linked paper is in research that may be beneficial?:<br />
<a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0608115" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0608115</a></p>
<p>Thanks again for making a very interesting subject so informative,pv.</p>
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		<title>By: daniel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27762</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 04:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/25/the-difficult-childhood-of-gravitational-waves/#comment-27762</guid>
		<description>Scott, Sean, Sean L., thanks for the clarifications! Paul Valletta, I&#039;m not sure I entirely understand your question. You might be asking about the issue of confusion noise--when there are so many different sources that it becomes impossible to disentangle them, and you&#039;re just left with an incoherent mess. This then raises the effective noise floor in the representative frequency regime, degrading your sensitivity. Such confusion noise is indeed expected to happen with galactic stellar-mass binaries and &lt;a href=&quot;http://lisa.nasa.gov/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;LISA&lt;/a&gt;. Fortunately there are large fractions of frequency-space where the binaries are sufficiently separated (in frequency) that they can be easily distinguished and identified. Another interesting question is why the night sky isn&#039;t as bright as the surface of the Sun, known as &lt;a href=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/olbers.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Olbers&#039; paradox&lt;/a&gt;. A similar question can be asked of gravitational-wave sources: why isn&#039;t the sky uniformly bright in gravitational-wave sources? This in fact is perhaps even more compelling, since GW sources aren&#039;t opaque to GWs, so you can&#039;t clump them and have them block each other. However, the same reasons that solve the electromagnetic Olbers&#039; paradox apply to gravitational waves: gravitational redshift and a finite age to the Universe prevent the infinities. Note that Olbers&#039; paradox is a stunningly simple and elegant argument that the Universe cannot be infinite, static, and Newtonian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, Sean, Sean L., thanks for the clarifications! Paul Valletta, I&#8217;m not sure I entirely understand your question. You might be asking about the issue of confusion noise&#8211;when there are so many different sources that it becomes impossible to disentangle them, and you&#8217;re just left with an incoherent mess. This then raises the effective noise floor in the representative frequency regime, degrading your sensitivity. Such confusion noise is indeed expected to happen with galactic stellar-mass binaries and <a href="http://lisa.nasa.gov/" rel="nofollow">LISA</a>. Fortunately there are large fractions of frequency-space where the binaries are sufficiently separated (in frequency) that they can be easily distinguished and identified. Another interesting question is why the night sky isn&#8217;t as bright as the surface of the Sun, known as <a href="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/olbers.html" rel="nofollow"> Olbers&#8217; paradox</a>. A similar question can be asked of gravitational-wave sources: why isn&#8217;t the sky uniformly bright in gravitational-wave sources? This in fact is perhaps even more compelling, since GW sources aren&#8217;t opaque to GWs, so you can&#8217;t clump them and have them block each other. However, the same reasons that solve the electromagnetic Olbers&#8217; paradox apply to gravitational waves: gravitational redshift and a finite age to the Universe prevent the infinities. Note that Olbers&#8217; paradox is a stunningly simple and elegant argument that the Universe cannot be infinite, static, and Newtonian.</p>
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