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	<title>Comments on: Anthropic Selection Illustrated</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Ten cuidado con lo que deseas... &#171; La Singularidad Desnuda</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28157</link>
		<dc:creator>Ten cuidado con lo que deseas... &#171; La Singularidad Desnuda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 16:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28157</guid>
		<description>[...] deseo del poco avezado estudiante. Alguna de estas ideas provienen de un hilo de discusiÃ³n en Cosmic Variance, donde vi por primera vez esta tira cÃ³mica. En primer lugar habrÃ­a que ver cÃ³mo decide el genio [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] deseo del poco avezado estudiante. Alguna de estas ideas provienen de un hilo de discusiÃ³n en Cosmic Variance, donde vi por primera vez esta tira cÃ³mica. En primer lugar habrÃ­a que ver cÃ³mo decide el genio [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cuidado com o que deseja at 100nexos</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28133</link>
		<dc:creator>Cuidado com o que deseja at 100nexos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2007 13:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28133</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;Quantos el&#233;trons de val&#234;ncia tem um &#225;tomo de hidrog&#234;nio?&#8221; Dois Um Depois&#8230; &#8220;-Voc&#234; pode ter o que desejar!&#8221; &#8220;- Eu queria ter acertado aquela quest&#227;o&#8221;. &#8220;BOOOOM!&#8221; [via Cosmic Variance]       Veja tambÃ©m:Monstro Espaguete Voador: o Jogo Ilumine o maior nÃºmero possÃ­vel de pessoas&amp;nbsp...Jogo: administre o McDonald&#8217;s E n&#227;o s&#243; uma franquia. Das vacas &amp;a...Autostitch: Crie panoramas fant&#225;sticos com tr&#234;s cliques O Autostitch &#233; um programa gratuito fenome...Gizmo &#8212; Imperd&#237;vel &quot;Gizmo&quot; &#233; uma compila&#231;&#227;o fa... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;Quantos el&eacute;trons de val&ecirc;ncia tem um &aacute;tomo de hidrog&ecirc;nio?&#8221; Dois Um Depois&#8230; &#8220;-Voc&ecirc; pode ter o que desejar!&#8221; &#8220;- Eu queria ter acertado aquela quest&atilde;o&#8221;. &#8220;BOOOOM!&#8221; [via Cosmic Variance]       Veja tambÃ©m:Monstro Espaguete Voador: o Jogo Ilumine o maior nÃºmero possÃ­vel de pessoas&#38;nbsp&#8230;Jogo: administre o McDonald&#8217;s E n&atilde;o s&oacute; uma franquia. Das vacas &#38;a&#8230;Autostitch: Crie panoramas fant&aacute;sticos com tr&ecirc;s cliques O Autostitch &eacute; um programa gratuito fenome&#8230;Gizmo &#8212; Imperd&iacute;vel &#8220;Gizmo&#8221; &eacute; uma compila&ccedil;&atilde;o fa&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28147</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 15:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28147</guid>
		<description>Zach, thanks, I&#039;m a big fan of the comic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zach, thanks, I&#8217;m a big fan of the comic.</p>
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		<title>By: Lab Lemming</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28131</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 10:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28131</guid>
		<description>Jason,
Actually I was talking about this one:
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/05/07_supernova.shtml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,<br />
Actually I was talking about this one:<br />
<a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/05/07_supernova.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/05/07_supernova.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28154</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 06:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28154</guid>
		<description>Hey, I&#039;m the guy who actually drew the comic above.

This is probably the most flattering blog post about any of my work ever. It&#039;s nice when people a lot smarter than you enjoy your work.

thanks!

Zach</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, I&#8217;m the guy who actually drew the comic above.</p>
<p>This is probably the most flattering blog post about any of my work ever. It&#8217;s nice when people a lot smarter than you enjoy your work.</p>
<p>thanks!</p>
<p>Zach</p>
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		<title>By: Neil B.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28144</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 23:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28144</guid>
		<description>aquariid:

     Sorry, but I am more adept at philosophical analysis than physics and not a cosmologist (can reply re L. Wittgenstein better than Ed Witten...) However, to answer your question:
&lt;i&gt;...why the so-called anthropic principle has any significance beyond being a classic tautology?&lt;/i&gt;
A well put anthropic principle is not the tautology, that of course outcomes must be consistent with starting conditions (i.e., our being here and the original laws.) That doesn&#039;t explain why there wasn&#039;t any number of possible lifeless universes, without observers existing (whether anyone would be there to say so being rather irrelevant to most astute thinkers.)  Hence, the real point is, the &quot;horizontal&quot; question: why a universe like this (favorable laws AND outcome regarding life) or not, rather than the phony &quot;vertical&quot; question, of the outcome (life) being consistent with the starting conditions/laws, which of course it would be.

     The interesting thing is, as any reader of the Tippler and Barrow classic &lt;i&gt;The Anthropic Cosmological Principle&lt;/i&gt;knows, that the range of suitable laws is very narrow indeed (like the required value of the fine structure constant.) Hence, why is &quot;the universe&quot; like that, if not &quot;designed&quot; for life? There are lots of avenues there, like multiple universes with different laws such that we find ourselves in one of the few that are suitable etc.  However, once one can believe in multiple universes with &quot;different laws&quot;, then where does it end? The modal realists have made the cogent argument that &quot;all logically possible&quot; universes should &quot;exist&quot;, since no clear logical reason can be given for selection and reification of some and not others. Indeed, they make a cogent case that the idea of &quot;existing&quot; as some special material state other than the platonic mathematical world description is circular, indefinable, and not logically coherent â€&quot; can you do it?

     If so, then the problem is actually even worse, because then all possible worlds really means all possible descriptions. If so, one has a vanishing Bayesian probability of finding oneself in a world that continues to be lawful instead of one of the infinitely more that were like this up to this point and then begin to diverge. Why? Because of all the change to different laws and variations and distortions of laws that can be described, and indeed the entirety of what behavior can be described after that point which certainly includes a gigantic set of chaotic futures, etc.

     Hence, I think there really needs to be a manager of some sort, to ensure placement in effect of observers like us in a world that really has laws, since logical possibility is just too inclusive. Think of that as you wish. (Not to mention, our having experiences etc., but that gets into consciousness issues and I am just making the argument relating to physical conditions and our being here.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>aquariid:</p>
<p>     Sorry, but I am more adept at philosophical analysis than physics and not a cosmologist (can reply re L. Wittgenstein better than Ed Witten&#8230;) However, to answer your question:<br />
<i>&#8230;why the so-called anthropic principle has any significance beyond being a classic tautology?</i><br />
A well put anthropic principle is not the tautology, that of course outcomes must be consistent with starting conditions (i.e., our being here and the original laws.) That doesn&#8217;t explain why there wasn&#8217;t any number of possible lifeless universes, without observers existing (whether anyone would be there to say so being rather irrelevant to most astute thinkers.)  Hence, the real point is, the &#8220;horizontal&#8221; question: why a universe like this (favorable laws AND outcome regarding life) or not, rather than the phony &#8220;vertical&#8221; question, of the outcome (life) being consistent with the starting conditions/laws, which of course it would be.</p>
<p>     The interesting thing is, as any reader of the Tippler and Barrow classic <i>The Anthropic Cosmological Principle</i>knows, that the range of suitable laws is very narrow indeed (like the required value of the fine structure constant.) Hence, why is &#8220;the universe&#8221; like that, if not &#8220;designed&#8221; for life? There are lots of avenues there, like multiple universes with different laws such that we find ourselves in one of the few that are suitable etc.  However, once one can believe in multiple universes with &#8220;different laws&#8221;, then where does it end? The modal realists have made the cogent argument that &#8220;all logically possible&#8221; universes should &#8220;exist&#8221;, since no clear logical reason can be given for selection and reification of some and not others. Indeed, they make a cogent case that the idea of &#8220;existing&#8221; as some special material state other than the platonic mathematical world description is circular, indefinable, and not logically coherent â€&#8221; can you do it?</p>
<p>     If so, then the problem is actually even worse, because then all possible worlds really means all possible descriptions. If so, one has a vanishing Bayesian probability of finding oneself in a world that continues to be lawful instead of one of the infinitely more that were like this up to this point and then begin to diverge. Why? Because of all the change to different laws and variations and distortions of laws that can be described, and indeed the entirety of what behavior can be described after that point which certainly includes a gigantic set of chaotic futures, etc.</p>
<p>     Hence, I think there really needs to be a manager of some sort, to ensure placement in effect of observers like us in a world that really has laws, since logical possibility is just too inclusive. Think of that as you wish. (Not to mention, our having experiences etc., but that gets into consciousness issues and I am just making the argument relating to physical conditions and our being here.)</p>
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		<title>By: The Crossed Pond &#187; When facts count</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28127</link>
		<dc:creator>The Crossed Pond &#187; When facts count</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 21:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28127</guid>
		<description>[...] Shamelessly lifted from Cosmic Variance, who linked it from Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Shamelessly lifted from Cosmic Variance, who linked it from Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal [...]</p>
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		<title>By: island</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28130</link>
		<dc:creator>island</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 10:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28130</guid>
		<description>A selection principle isn&#039;t a physics principle when it is a selection effect.

I think that I do no disservice to science when I say that the term &quot;principle&quot;, in context with Barrow and Tipler&#039;s weak interpretation, is a careless misuse of terminology by a field that used to be so very careful about such wording.

A &quot;cosmic selection principle&quot; that relies on random probabilities to rationalize improbabilty is a selection effect, not a physics principle.

A physics principle says something fundamental about structure and dynamics, whereas, selection effects, do not.  A cosmological principle says something fundamental about the structure and dynamics of the universe, but they also define theories of everything, because this explains the motivating physics for the observed constraints on the forces.

I wonder what theory of everything that the theory of evolution might dictate if the anthropic constraint on the forces includes a mechanism or thermodynamic function for Darwinian-like evolution, which preserves the second law by conserving energy through evolutionary leaps to higher orders of the same basic structure?

You know, kinda-following the hard-evidenced fact that we became more &quot;entropically efficient&quot; when we lept from apes to harness fire, and beyond...

You know, hard empirical stuff like that...

Too bad that science can&#039;t even recognize the begged question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A selection principle isn&#8217;t a physics principle when it is a selection effect.</p>
<p>I think that I do no disservice to science when I say that the term &#8220;principle&#8221;, in context with Barrow and Tipler&#8217;s weak interpretation, is a careless misuse of terminology by a field that used to be so very careful about such wording.</p>
<p>A &#8220;cosmic selection principle&#8221; that relies on random probabilities to rationalize improbabilty is a selection effect, not a physics principle.</p>
<p>A physics principle says something fundamental about structure and dynamics, whereas, selection effects, do not.  A cosmological principle says something fundamental about the structure and dynamics of the universe, but they also define theories of everything, because this explains the motivating physics for the observed constraints on the forces.</p>
<p>I wonder what theory of everything that the theory of evolution might dictate if the anthropic constraint on the forces includes a mechanism or thermodynamic function for Darwinian-like evolution, which preserves the second law by conserving energy through evolutionary leaps to higher orders of the same basic structure?</p>
<p>You know, kinda-following the hard-evidenced fact that we became more &#8220;entropically efficient&#8221; when we lept from apes to harness fire, and beyond&#8230;</p>
<p>You know, hard empirical stuff like that&#8230;</p>
<p>Too bad that science can&#8217;t even recognize the begged question.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28143</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 05:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28143</guid>
		<description>Sean:

Where were you when your fellow atheists &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rKiGJrcNw&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;were taking a dump on physics&lt;/a&gt;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean:</p>
<p>Where were you when your fellow atheists <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rKiGJrcNw" rel="nofollow">were taking a dump on physics</a>?</p>
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		<title>By: James Nightshade</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/comment-page-1/#comment-28128</link>
		<dc:creator>James Nightshade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 01:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/06/anthropic-selection-illustrated/#comment-28128</guid>
		<description>Suppose I was born in a particular small town in Illinois, population &lt; 100.

Isn&#039;t it unlikely for me to be born there, rather than a large city like Los Angeles, Nanking, or Mexico City?  Should I suppose that some cosmic selection principle has determined my unlikely birthplace?

[This dumb comment revised to comply with the dumb comment parsing.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suppose I was born in a particular small town in Illinois, population &lt; 100.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it unlikely for me to be born there, rather than a large city like Los Angeles, Nanking, or Mexico City?  Should I suppose that some cosmic selection principle has determined my unlikely birthplace?</p>
<p>[This dumb comment revised to comply with the dumb comment parsing.]</p>
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