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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;Tis the Season for Tenure Flaps</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28658</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 23:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28658</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070602/NEWS02/706020334/-1/SPORTS01&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; is a story on the ISU president&#039;s denial of Gonzalez&#039; appeal of his tenure decision. The story reports that Gonzalez received only $22,661 in grant money since July, 2006, and that the average total funding for physics and astronomy professors prior to tenure was $1.3 million. It also quotes the president as saying that ID issues played no role in his decision. I&#039;m pretty sure that $1.3 million is much higher than the average for astronomers that don&#039;t build instruments, but if he only got $22k in funding over 6 years, it is not a surprise that he didn&#039;t get tenure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070602/NEWS02/706020334/-1/SPORTS01" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is a story on the ISU president&#8217;s denial of Gonzalez&#8217; appeal of his tenure decision. The story reports that Gonzalez received only $22,661 in grant money since July, 2006, and that the average total funding for physics and astronomy professors prior to tenure was $1.3 million. It also quotes the president as saying that ID issues played no role in his decision. I&#8217;m pretty sure that $1.3 million is much higher than the average for astronomers that don&#8217;t build instruments, but if he only got $22k in funding over 6 years, it is not a surprise that he didn&#8217;t get tenure.</p>
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		<title>By: CIPig on ID, prof&#8217;s tenure, and Cosmic Variance militancy &#171; Dudesky</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28657</link>
		<dc:creator>CIPig on ID, prof&#8217;s tenure, and Cosmic Variance militancy &#171; Dudesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28657</guid>
		<description>[...] takes exception to Jo Ann&#8217;s support of the ID Christian prof being denied tenure in the post &#039;Tis the Season for Tenure Flaps: I am no fan of militant religion of any stripe, but for reasons probably peculiar to my own [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] takes exception to Jo Ann&#8217;s support of the ID Christian prof being denied tenure in the post &#8216;Tis the Season for Tenure Flaps: I am no fan of militant religion of any stripe, but for reasons probably peculiar to my own [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Intelligent Design and Tenure on the Net &#124; As the Worm Turns</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28656</link>
		<dc:creator>Intelligent Design and Tenure on the Net &#124; As the Worm Turns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28656</guid>
		<description>[...] the other, those who want to defend the integrity of the Scientific Establishment are just fine with it â€&quot; denying tenure because a teacher believes odd and peculiar things, or because they [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the other, those who want to defend the integrity of the Scientific Establishment are just fine with it â€&#8221; denying tenure because a teacher believes odd and peculiar things, or because they [...]</p>
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		<title>By: adam</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28613</link>
		<dc:creator>adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 23:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28613</guid>
		<description>My understanding, CIP, is that religious expressions are not protected &#039;no matter what&#039; (as a rastafarian smoking cannabis might find). If an employee does something to harm their employer&#039;s business, they&#039;re going to get fired (clearly, amployers can&#039;t stand for that).

In any case, Dave would appear to have nailed it; even if you (CIP) are right about the nature of the law (that religious expression trumps all, including the commensense idea that an employer ought to be able to fire employees that harm that employer&#039;s business), there appears to be something of a logical trap there for Gonzales.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding, CIP, is that religious expressions are not protected &#8216;no matter what&#8217; (as a rastafarian smoking cannabis might find). If an employee does something to harm their employer&#8217;s business, they&#8217;re going to get fired (clearly, amployers can&#8217;t stand for that).</p>
<p>In any case, Dave would appear to have nailed it; even if you (CIP) are right about the nature of the law (that religious expression trumps all, including the commensense idea that an employer ought to be able to fire employees that harm that employer&#8217;s business), there appears to be something of a logical trap there for Gonzales.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28619</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 12:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28619</guid>
		<description>Dear CapitalistImperialistPig,

There are a couple of problems with your argument. First, denial of tenure is not a decision to fire someone. It is a decision not to hire them for a permanent job. This makes it much harder to win a lawsuit.

Second, the very essence of &quot;Intelligent Design&quot; would seem to defeat any attempt to make a religious discrimination claim. If Gonzalez were to claim that he rejects evolution based on his religious beliefs, but that this doesn&#039;t interfere with his astronomy, then he might be able to claim religious discrimination. But, &quot;Intelligent Design&quot; claims to be a scientific theory, so the tenure decision could be based on his poor scientific judgement in accepting ID. So, in order to make his claim, Gonzalez would have to deny the central fraud behind ID. This seems unlikely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear CapitalistImperialistPig,</p>
<p>There are a couple of problems with your argument. First, denial of tenure is not a decision to fire someone. It is a decision not to hire them for a permanent job. This makes it much harder to win a lawsuit.</p>
<p>Second, the very essence of &#8220;Intelligent Design&#8221; would seem to defeat any attempt to make a religious discrimination claim. If Gonzalez were to claim that he rejects evolution based on his religious beliefs, but that this doesn&#8217;t interfere with his astronomy, then he might be able to claim religious discrimination. But, &#8220;Intelligent Design&#8221; claims to be a scientific theory, so the tenure decision could be based on his poor scientific judgement in accepting ID. So, in order to make his claim, Gonzalez would have to deny the central fraud behind ID. This seems unlikely.</p>
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		<title>By: Analyzer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28616</link>
		<dc:creator>Analyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 05:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28616</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;He can&#039;t use his classroom to proseletyze, but what he does on his own time, if of a religious character, cannot (legally) be used against him any more than his race, sex or ethnicity could be.&lt;/i&gt;

Are you sure about that?  Suppose I work at Bob&#039;s Auto Repair.  I put in my hours, then right after I&#039;m off the clock, I stand on the street outside the shop, on public property, and I start handing out flyers that say, &quot;Bob is pro-choice!  Boycott Bob&#039;s, or Jesus will see to it that you burn in hell forever!&quot;  I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that Bob ought to be able to fire me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>He can&#8217;t use his classroom to proseletyze, but what he does on his own time, if of a religious character, cannot (legally) be used against him any more than his race, sex or ethnicity could be.</i></p>
<p>Are you sure about that?  Suppose I work at Bob&#8217;s Auto Repair.  I put in my hours, then right after I&#8217;m off the clock, I stand on the street outside the shop, on public property, and I start handing out flyers that say, &#8220;Bob is pro-choice!  Boycott Bob&#8217;s, or Jesus will see to it that you burn in hell forever!&#8221;  I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that Bob ought to be able to fire me.</p>
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		<title>By: CapitalistImperialistPig</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28612</link>
		<dc:creator>CapitalistImperialistPig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 04:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28612</guid>
		<description>adam,

I suggest you review your understanding of US law.  Religious activity is protected speech, and if you aren&#039;t advocating or doing something criminal, the State of Iowa can&#039;t legally take any job action against you for it.  This is all spelled out very clearly in Civil Rights case law and the statutes.

He can&#039;t use his classroom to proseletyze, but what he does on his own time, if of a religious character, cannot (legally) be used against him any more than his race, sex or ethnicity could be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>adam,</p>
<p>I suggest you review your understanding of US law.  Religious activity is protected speech, and if you aren&#8217;t advocating or doing something criminal, the State of Iowa can&#8217;t legally take any job action against you for it.  This is all spelled out very clearly in Civil Rights case law and the statutes.</p>
<p>He can&#8217;t use his classroom to proseletyze, but what he does on his own time, if of a religious character, cannot (legally) be used against him any more than his race, sex or ethnicity could be.</p>
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		<title>By: adam</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28614</link>
		<dc:creator>adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 13:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28614</guid>
		<description>He wouldn&#039;t fail to be hired as permanent for what he believes, but for what he said and did. There&#039;s not a limitless carte blanche to express your religious beliefs, regardless of the effect on your employer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He wouldn&#8217;t fail to be hired as permanent for what he believes, but for what he said and did. There&#8217;s not a limitless carte blanche to express your religious beliefs, regardless of the effect on your employer.</p>
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		<title>By: CapitalistImperialistPig</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28615</link>
		<dc:creator>CapitalistImperialistPig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 12:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28615</guid>
		<description>Belizean

&lt;i&gt;If it is chock full of supernatural assumptions and completely untestable (even in principle), then, yes, his positions is anti-science. And it would be wrong to grant him tenure in a pro-science department.&lt;/i&gt;

And completely illegal not to grant him tenure on that basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Belizean</p>
<p><i>If it is chock full of supernatural assumptions and completely untestable (even in principle), then, yes, his positions is anti-science. And it would be wrong to grant him tenure in a pro-science department.</i></p>
<p>And completely illegal not to grant him tenure on that basis.</p>
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		<title>By: Belizean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/comment-page-2/#comment-28629</link>
		<dc:creator>Belizean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 00:49:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/20/tis-the-season-for-tenure-flaps/#comment-28629</guid>
		<description>Surely, this discussion turns on character of Gonzalez&#039; version of ID.  If it is free of supernaturalisms and subject to refutation on the basis of observation, then it is just an outlandish scientific hypothesis.  Which is okay.

If it is chock full of supernatural assumptions and completely untestable (even in principle), then, yes, his positions is anti-science.   And it would be wrong to grant him tenure in a pro-science department.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely, this discussion turns on character of Gonzalez&#8217; version of ID.  If it is free of supernaturalisms and subject to refutation on the basis of observation, then it is just an outlandish scientific hypothesis.  Which is okay.</p>
<p>If it is chock full of supernatural assumptions and completely untestable (even in principle), then, yes, his positions is anti-science.   And it would be wrong to grant him tenure in a pro-science department.</p>
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