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	<title>Comments on: The Meaning of &#8220;Life&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Are Cities Just Very Large Organisms? &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-73425</link>
		<dc:creator>Are Cities Just Very Large Organisms? &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-73425</guid>
		<description>[...] talked before about the difficulty in defining &#8220;life,&#8221; although one safe criterion is that a living organism is going to be pretty complex. What [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] talked before about the difficulty in defining &#8220;life,&#8221; although one safe criterion is that a living organism is going to be pretty complex. What [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Heresiarch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-31935</link>
		<dc:creator>Heresiarch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:27:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-31935</guid>
		<description>Back to that Vitalism thing: The olde conception at least honored the notion of causality. The vitalist doctrine DID propose (various versions of) a &quot;life energy,&quot; but the contemporary versions (complexity, emergence, self-organization, etc.) don&#039;t EVEN do that. They propose that nature violates entropy with NO cause whatsoever. It just happens.This is rational thinking? Czech it out: &lt;a href=&quot;www.starlarvae.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;www.starlarvae.org&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back to that Vitalism thing: The olde conception at least honored the notion of causality. The vitalist doctrine DID propose (various versions of) a &#8220;life energy,&#8221; but the contemporary versions (complexity, emergence, self-organization, etc.) don&#8217;t EVEN do that. They propose that nature violates entropy with NO cause whatsoever. It just happens.This is rational thinking? Czech it out: <a href="www.starlarvae.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.starlarvae.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-31980</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-31980</guid>
		<description>There is an interesting paper on a computer model for one of the primary nucleosides.

Rainer Glaser, Brian Hodgen, Dean Farrelly, and Elliot McKee
‘Adenine Synthesis in Interstellar Space: Mechanisms of Prebiotic Pyrimidine Ring-Formation in Monocyclic HCN-Pentamers’
Article, Astrobiology 2007, 7, 455-470. PDF. (Publication in Print: June 2007)
Online Visualization: Chime Displays and Reaction Animations

http://web.missouri.edu/~glaserr/vitpub/adenine_ast_2006.0112.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is an interesting paper on a computer model for one of the primary nucleosides.</p>
<p>Rainer Glaser, Brian Hodgen, Dean Farrelly, and Elliot McKee<br />
‘Adenine Synthesis in Interstellar Space: Mechanisms of Prebiotic Pyrimidine Ring-Formation in Monocyclic HCN-Pentamers’<br />
Article, Astrobiology 2007, 7, 455-470. PDF. (Publication in Print: June 2007)<br />
Online Visualization: Chime Displays and Reaction Animations</p>
<p><a href="http://web.missouri.edu/~glaserr/vitpub/adenine_ast_2006.0112.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://web.missouri.edu/~glaserr/vitpub/adenine_ast_2006.0112.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark R.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-31979</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-31979</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a little strange to me, defining &quot;life&quot;. To do so, you have to abstract yourself, or separate yourself from it. We might be running up against that whole &quot;nothingness&quot; problem again, only in a variation.

Part of it seems to depend upon where we choose to look, and on what scale. Cells of the body, and each one alive, composed of un-alive atoms? And we thinkers, an unlikely result of the collective efforts of these cells?

I suppose if a cell in our body might contemplate its existence, it would have to observe the things around it, or better yet, travel outside the body, finding, perhaps, a gargantuan being, beyond comprehension, scratching itself.

Or, if planets could talk to one another, might the Earth brag, oooo, look what I&#039;ve done: look at my hairdo, as all we little critters now go springing out into the space surrounding it.

Everything seems so interdependent upon everything else. It&#039;s all connected, if even just from the Big Bang. It makes me wonder if asking the question, is something alive, is really all that important. What does seem important, though, is a general respect shown toward all our constituency, and whatever constituency we might find ourselves a part, on whatever scale.

We have suns whose component processes manufacture carbon and metals. We have plants whose component processes manufacture oxygen. We have ourselves whose component processes manufacture thinking about stuff like this.

And we&#039;ve likely got big clusters of all this stuff going on everywhere. I wonder, is a delineation between life and non-life anything? Or are we just looking for something we recognize to be something like ourselves -- something we can, in some more intimate way, relate to? And if that&#039;s the case, maybe it&#039;s just as good to ask the question, what are we, to wonder such things, or to wonder at all?

Maybe we don&#039;t really need to abstract ourselves from life to define what it is and is not, creating boundaries where none seem, on various scales, to exist.

I just love to death, though, that we really don&#039;t want to be all alone in it all, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a little strange to me, defining &#8220;life&#8221;. To do so, you have to abstract yourself, or separate yourself from it. We might be running up against that whole &#8220;nothingness&#8221; problem again, only in a variation.</p>
<p>Part of it seems to depend upon where we choose to look, and on what scale. Cells of the body, and each one alive, composed of un-alive atoms? And we thinkers, an unlikely result of the collective efforts of these cells?</p>
<p>I suppose if a cell in our body might contemplate its existence, it would have to observe the things around it, or better yet, travel outside the body, finding, perhaps, a gargantuan being, beyond comprehension, scratching itself.</p>
<p>Or, if planets could talk to one another, might the Earth brag, oooo, look what I&#8217;ve done: look at my hairdo, as all we little critters now go springing out into the space surrounding it.</p>
<p>Everything seems so interdependent upon everything else. It&#8217;s all connected, if even just from the Big Bang. It makes me wonder if asking the question, is something alive, is really all that important. What does seem important, though, is a general respect shown toward all our constituency, and whatever constituency we might find ourselves a part, on whatever scale.</p>
<p>We have suns whose component processes manufacture carbon and metals. We have plants whose component processes manufacture oxygen. We have ourselves whose component processes manufacture thinking about stuff like this.</p>
<p>And we&#8217;ve likely got big clusters of all this stuff going on everywhere. I wonder, is a delineation between life and non-life anything? Or are we just looking for something we recognize to be something like ourselves &#8212; something we can, in some more intimate way, relate to? And if that&#8217;s the case, maybe it&#8217;s just as good to ask the question, what are we, to wonder such things, or to wonder at all?</p>
<p>Maybe we don&#8217;t really need to abstract ourselves from life to define what it is and is not, creating boundaries where none seem, on various scales, to exist.</p>
<p>I just love to death, though, that we really don&#8217;t want to be all alone in it all, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Low Math, Meekly Interacting</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-31926</link>
		<dc:creator>Low Math, Meekly Interacting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-31926</guid>
		<description>Hmmm.  Just read the Seed article.  I have a feeling I would have been one of the folks yelling at Cleland if I were there.  I find the idea that we should give up on defining life until we find extraterrestrials to be rather vacuous, really.  That sounds like opening our minds to the point our brains fall out to me.  It&#039;s also not at all clear to me why we need any more theory than natural selection to make a reasonable stab at being comprehensive.  What the hell else is supposed to give rise to this thing we refuse to even try to define until we find it under a rock on Titan scratching itself?  What are we even looking for, then?  I also find the argument against Darwinian evolution&#039;s reliance on genes to be specious, quite frankly.  If there is not some information in this magical bag of enzymes (how one gets something as complex as an enzyme as a mere constituent is completely ignored, apparently, which itself is outrageous), of what significance is &quot;change&quot;?  If it gets dry the water in the puddle evaporates, and the mud turns to dirt.  That&#039;s environmentally-driven change.   So fricking what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm.  Just read the Seed article.  I have a feeling I would have been one of the folks yelling at Cleland if I were there.  I find the idea that we should give up on defining life until we find extraterrestrials to be rather vacuous, really.  That sounds like opening our minds to the point our brains fall out to me.  It&#8217;s also not at all clear to me why we need any more theory than natural selection to make a reasonable stab at being comprehensive.  What the hell else is supposed to give rise to this thing we refuse to even try to define until we find it under a rock on Titan scratching itself?  What are we even looking for, then?  I also find the argument against Darwinian evolution&#8217;s reliance on genes to be specious, quite frankly.  If there is not some information in this magical bag of enzymes (how one gets something as complex as an enzyme as a mere constituent is completely ignored, apparently, which itself is outrageous), of what significance is &#8220;change&#8221;?  If it gets dry the water in the puddle evaporates, and the mud turns to dirt.  That&#8217;s environmentally-driven change.   So fricking what?</p>
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		<title>By: Low Math, Meekly Interacting</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-31978</link>
		<dc:creator>Low Math, Meekly Interacting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-31978</guid>
		<description>I would hasten to add that if somebody starts in with the vitalistic hocus-pocus of life&#039;s &quot;fundamental theory&quot; or the woolier gestalt concepts, run away screaming, of course.  But I think it&#039;s too much to dismiss all talk of complexity and emergence as mysticism.  I admit it&#039;s not so well-defined, but IMHO &quot;more is different&quot; is one of the pithiest little scientific observations one is likely to come by, and derserves consideration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would hasten to add that if somebody starts in with the vitalistic hocus-pocus of life&#8217;s &#8220;fundamental theory&#8221; or the woolier gestalt concepts, run away screaming, of course.  But I think it&#8217;s too much to dismiss all talk of complexity and emergence as mysticism.  I admit it&#8217;s not so well-defined, but IMHO &#8220;more is different&#8221; is one of the pithiest little scientific observations one is likely to come by, and derserves consideration.</p>
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		<title>By: Low Math, Meekly Interacting</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-31977</link>
		<dc:creator>Low Math, Meekly Interacting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-31977</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d say even the least complex prokaryotes and viruses are not at all simple compared to your average glob of abiotic matter.

And even protists share many, many genes with multicellular organisms as large and complex as ourselves.  Indeed, biology reveals a remarkable level of recapitulation throughout its putative history.  What one sees with multicellular organisms is a new layer of complexity over what can be achieved with a genome surrounded by a membrane, and this arrangement is almost totally constrained by size, most notably the ratio of surface-area to volume.

I don&#039;t think there is a &quot;better&quot; in evolutionary terms.  When there is selective pressure (and even in its absence, due to genetic drift), life tends to fill up all the niches, but there&#039;s no reason to expect any kind of symmetry in terms of number of species or mass of a particular species in those niches, and no value judgement we can readily place on such metrics so long as the species in question is viable from generation to generation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say even the least complex prokaryotes and viruses are not at all simple compared to your average glob of abiotic matter.</p>
<p>And even protists share many, many genes with multicellular organisms as large and complex as ourselves.  Indeed, biology reveals a remarkable level of recapitulation throughout its putative history.  What one sees with multicellular organisms is a new layer of complexity over what can be achieved with a genome surrounded by a membrane, and this arrangement is almost totally constrained by size, most notably the ratio of surface-area to volume.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there is a &#8220;better&#8221; in evolutionary terms.  When there is selective pressure (and even in its absence, due to genetic drift), life tends to fill up all the niches, but there&#8217;s no reason to expect any kind of symmetry in terms of number of species or mass of a particular species in those niches, and no value judgement we can readily place on such metrics so long as the species in question is viable from generation to generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-31976</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-31976</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Heresiarch&lt;/b&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Emergence, complexity, self-organization, and so forth are transparent revivals of the discredited doctrine of Vitalism.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Acute characterization - I haven&#039;t seen it expressed so sharply before.

Evolution isn&#039;t a &quot;ladder of progress&quot; or other misplaced Victorian concepts, but a symmetric process that can go both ways. The initial conditions was asymmetric, but after 3-4 Ga the majority of biomass is still simple Virus and Bacteria. Simple is better, and I believe biologists think that it is energy requirements that constrain size.

There is a coincidental tail diffusing towards complexity in lieu of the constraint pushing back. Simpler and faster reproducing Bacteria have outcompeted Archaea to inhabit extreme environments and Eukaryota to exhibit complex phenomes. As these things go, &lt;i&gt;we&lt;/i&gt; are the scum of Earth. :-P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Heresiarch</b>:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Emergence, complexity, self-organization, and so forth are transparent revivals of the discredited doctrine of Vitalism.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Acute characterization &#8211; I haven&#8217;t seen it expressed so sharply before.</p>
<p>Evolution isn&#8217;t a &#8220;ladder of progress&#8221; or other misplaced Victorian concepts, but a symmetric process that can go both ways. The initial conditions was asymmetric, but after 3-4 Ga the majority of biomass is still simple Virus and Bacteria. Simple is better, and I believe biologists think that it is energy requirements that constrain size.</p>
<p>There is a coincidental tail diffusing towards complexity in lieu of the constraint pushing back. Simpler and faster reproducing Bacteria have outcompeted Archaea to inhabit extreme environments and Eukaryota to exhibit complex phenomes. As these things go, <i>we</i> are the scum of Earth. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':-P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-31902</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-31902</guid>
		<description>Old but not dead thread in a fascinating subject. Most of my 2c has been said, but I can amplify:

I agree with Jason Dick that a functional description is better. My own motivation is that it fits established theory better. Also, in biology distinctions are fuzzy. For example, we are forced to use several species concepts. So we can and probably must use several life concepts.

[For living sexual populations we can use the &quot;biological species&quot; concept. (Different populations who can&#039;t or won&#039;t mate belong to different species.) But that doesn&#039;t describe asexual populations or fossils.]

Therefore I propose the following modern concept of life (in analogy with &quot;concept of species&quot;):
&lt;blockquote&gt;
An organism is the unit element of a continuous lineage with an individual evolutionary history.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The &lt;i&gt;model for the definition&lt;/i&gt; is an organism as the current slice in a continous process. Thus combining the idea of &lt;i&gt;life as individual&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;/i&gt;life as process&lt;/i&gt; with evolution and an implicit assumption of am inheritance mechanism, and a robust definition of organism. Quite a few birds knocked down with one stone.

This definition excludes organelles and such replicators as prions because they have entered dependent niches, as they are subsumed into an organism. But viruses are individual organisms under the definition, as they coevolve instead.

Similarly such things as memes, stars and galaxies are excluded, as they have no inheritance. While software/hardware such as implementations of genetic algorithms are included. (As noted, such populations may or may not inhabit other environments than we do.)

&lt;b&gt;Finally, to amplify&lt;/b&gt;:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.biology-direct.com/content/1/1/29/figure/F2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Viruses and cells from different extant and extinct domains could have crossed the Darwinian threshold several times from a progenotic state.&lt;/a&gt; Also, early total extinctions are consistent with the observation of early and so likely easy abiogenesis.

These crossings are initiated by diverse selfish elements, a mechanism that is often observed in genes. Evolution, especially past a progenotic state, is a competitive [sic!] and robust process which we should expect to be common elsewhere.

Maybe we will meet singular existences, biological or mechanical, that aren&#039;t described thusly. But I believe the way to bet is that they are rare and bound on an extinction path. We could probably approximate &quot;life&quot; with &quot;populations that obey evolution&quot; as above. Other characteristics are coincidental.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old but not dead thread in a fascinating subject. Most of my 2c has been said, but I can amplify:</p>
<p>I agree with Jason Dick that a functional description is better. My own motivation is that it fits established theory better. Also, in biology distinctions are fuzzy. For example, we are forced to use several species concepts. So we can and probably must use several life concepts.</p>
<p>[For living sexual populations we can use the "biological species" concept. (Different populations who can't or won't mate belong to different species.) But that doesn't describe asexual populations or fossils.]</p>
<p>Therefore I propose the following modern concept of life (in analogy with &#8220;concept of species&#8221;):</p>
<blockquote><p>
An organism is the unit element of a continuous lineage with an individual evolutionary history.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The <i>model for the definition</i> is an organism as the current slice in a continous process. Thus combining the idea of <i>life as individual</i> and life as process with evolution and an implicit assumption of am inheritance mechanism, and a robust definition of organism. Quite a few birds knocked down with one stone.</p>
<p>This definition excludes organelles and such replicators as prions because they have entered dependent niches, as they are subsumed into an organism. But viruses are individual organisms under the definition, as they coevolve instead.</p>
<p>Similarly such things as memes, stars and galaxies are excluded, as they have no inheritance. While software/hardware such as implementations of genetic algorithms are included. (As noted, such populations may or may not inhabit other environments than we do.)</p>
<p><b>Finally, to amplify</b>:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.biology-direct.com/content/1/1/29/figure/F2" rel="nofollow">Viruses and cells from different extant and extinct domains could have crossed the Darwinian threshold several times from a progenotic state.</a> Also, early total extinctions are consistent with the observation of early and so likely easy abiogenesis.</p>
<p>These crossings are initiated by diverse selfish elements, a mechanism that is often observed in genes. Evolution, especially past a progenotic state, is a competitive [sic!] and robust process which we should expect to be common elsewhere.</p>
<p>Maybe we will meet singular existences, biological or mechanical, that aren&#8217;t described thusly. But I believe the way to bet is that they are rare and bound on an extinction path. We could probably approximate &#8220;life&#8221; with &#8220;populations that obey evolution&#8221; as above. Other characteristics are coincidental.</p>
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		<title>By: Jolly Bloger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-31901</link>
		<dc:creator>Jolly Bloger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 06:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/09/08/the-meaning-of-life/#comment-31901</guid>
		<description>For the record, emergence, complexity, and self-organization are not at all tied to vitalism, they are all involved in perfectly scientific formulations of life through evolution without invoking some hocus pocus 17th century life energy. Those concepts are also important in economics and computer science.

B, I agree it looks like we sort of agreed all along, we just misunderstood each other. I still maintain that it is strictly improper, according to the laws of language, to use a word in its own definition. You never see this in a dictionary :) (unless the word is referring to an above definition of the same word).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, emergence, complexity, and self-organization are not at all tied to vitalism, they are all involved in perfectly scientific formulations of life through evolution without invoking some hocus pocus 17th century life energy. Those concepts are also important in economics and computer science.</p>
<p>B, I agree it looks like we sort of agreed all along, we just misunderstood each other. I still maintain that it is strictly improper, according to the laws of language, to use a word in its own definition. You never see this in a dictionary <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  (unless the word is referring to an above definition of the same word).</p>
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