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	<title>Comments on: Dark Matter:  Still Existing</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/</link>
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		<title>By: Tumbledried</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33279</link>
		<dc:creator>Tumbledried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33279</guid>
		<description>Ah I see, thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah I see, thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33150</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33150</guid>
		<description>Tumbledried, all of those things count as &quot;ordinary&quot; matter, not dark matter.  We can measure the total amount of ordinary matter whether or not it is directly visible, using primordial nucleosynthesis and temperature anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background.  The total amount of gravitating matter is substantially more than the total amount of ordinary matter, which implies that there must be dark matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tumbledried, all of those things count as &#8220;ordinary&#8221; matter, not dark matter.  We can measure the total amount of ordinary matter whether or not it is directly visible, using primordial nucleosynthesis and temperature anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background.  The total amount of gravitating matter is substantially more than the total amount of ordinary matter, which implies that there must be dark matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Tumbledried</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33278</link>
		<dc:creator>Tumbledried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 08:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33278</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m dreadfully sorry to perform necromancy on an old thread, but I am interested in one thing.   I&#039;m going to eat my own words from before and admit that I well could well have been wrong about naysaying this dark matter/dark energy stuff.  In particular, I&#039;m interested in the answer to the following question.  Are sources of the posited dark matter defined to include black holes, neutron stars, and non radiating &quot;cold&quot; matter, like interstellar dust/asteroids/comets?  Or are these astrophysical objects regarded as conventional matter (my earlier and possibly erroneous assumption)?  There certainly is probably quite a bit of matter that is not burning in stellar furnaces, for instance, or even orbiting such, that is not immediately visible.  I kind of assumed that this was taken into account in the original (and current!) calculations of the distribution of matter in the Milky Way, but I&#039;ve been wrong before about the state of knowledge in an area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m dreadfully sorry to perform necromancy on an old thread, but I am interested in one thing.   I&#8217;m going to eat my own words from before and admit that I well could well have been wrong about naysaying this dark matter/dark energy stuff.  In particular, I&#8217;m interested in the answer to the following question.  Are sources of the posited dark matter defined to include black holes, neutron stars, and non radiating &#8220;cold&#8221; matter, like interstellar dust/asteroids/comets?  Or are these astrophysical objects regarded as conventional matter (my earlier and possibly erroneous assumption)?  There certainly is probably quite a bit of matter that is not burning in stellar furnaces, for instance, or even orbiting such, that is not immediately visible.  I kind of assumed that this was taken into account in the original (and current!) calculations of the distribution of matter in the Milky Way, but I&#8217;ve been wrong before about the state of knowledge in an area.</p>
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		<title>By: spaceman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33276</link>
		<dc:creator>spaceman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33276</guid>
		<description>Cosmologists seem very confident that dark matter exists, but how confident are they that it will eventually be unambiguously detected? If DM detection experiments keep coming out with negative results, it will always be possible for clever theorists to come up with a theory that is empirically equivalent to CDM.

Professor Moffat adds, ‘If the multi-billion dollar laboratory experiments now underway succeed in directly detecting dark matter, then I will be happy to see Einsteinian and Newtonian gravity retained. However, if dark matter is not detected and we have to conclude that it does not exist, then Einstein and Newtonian gravity must be modified to fit the extensive amount of astronomical and cosmological data, such as the bullet cluster, that cannot otherwise be explained.’</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cosmologists seem very confident that dark matter exists, but how confident are they that it will eventually be unambiguously detected? If DM detection experiments keep coming out with negative results, it will always be possible for clever theorists to come up with a theory that is empirically equivalent to CDM.</p>
<p>Professor Moffat adds, ‘If the multi-billion dollar laboratory experiments now underway succeed in directly detecting dark matter, then I will be happy to see Einsteinian and Newtonian gravity retained. However, if dark matter is not detected and we have to conclude that it does not exist, then Einstein and Newtonian gravity must be modified to fit the extensive amount of astronomical and cosmological data, such as the bullet cluster, that cannot otherwise be explained.’</p>
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		<title>By: Scott H.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33277</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33277</guid>
		<description>Jason, you should get a medal for the patience and thoughtfulness you&#039;ve exhibited on this thread!  Bravo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, you should get a medal for the patience and thoughtfulness you&#8217;ve exhibited on this thread!  Bravo.</p>
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		<title>By: The Big Picture &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Dark matter&#8230; whatever that is</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33153</link>
		<dc:creator>The Big Picture &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Dark matter&#8230; whatever that is</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33153</guid>
		<description>[...] Dark Matter proves why certain Universe phenomena are as they are and cannot be proved away by other unprovable theorems. It all gets pretty complicated. [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dark Matter proves why certain Universe phenomena are as they are and cannot be proved away by other unprovable theorems. It all gets pretty complicated. [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Jason dick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33275</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33275</guid>
		<description>Robert,

1)  The speed of gravity is also the speed of light, at least as far as General Relativity is concerned.  This speed pops right out of the Einstein equations (scientists are testing this right now, though it turns out to be a bit difficult to even write down a theory of gravity where the speed of gravity is different).

2) Black holes can most definitely merge.  This is one of the events that people hope to be able to detect with the next generation of gravitational wave detectors, as it is expected to occur frequently as a result of galaxy mergers, where the supermassive black holes at their centers merge shortly afterward.  And if it turns out that there is a visible component of the merger (which is possible, from matter that surrounds the two black holes), then we will be able to use these merger events to constrain cosmology.  Here&#039;s a video that shows a simulation of such an event:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG8_uexPhaI

Hopefully we&#039;ll be able to say we&#039;ve detected such a merger within a decade or so.

3) Doubt it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert,</p>
<p>1)  The speed of gravity is also the speed of light, at least as far as General Relativity is concerned.  This speed pops right out of the Einstein equations (scientists are testing this right now, though it turns out to be a bit difficult to even write down a theory of gravity where the speed of gravity is different).</p>
<p>2) Black holes can most definitely merge.  This is one of the events that people hope to be able to detect with the next generation of gravitational wave detectors, as it is expected to occur frequently as a result of galaxy mergers, where the supermassive black holes at their centers merge shortly afterward.  And if it turns out that there is a visible component of the merger (which is possible, from matter that surrounds the two black holes), then we will be able to use these merger events to constrain cosmology.  Here&#8217;s a video that shows a simulation of such an event:<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG8_uexPhaI" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG8_uexPhaI</a></p>
<p>Hopefully we&#8217;ll be able to say we&#8217;ve detected such a merger within a decade or so.</p>
<p>3) Doubt it.</p>
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		<title>By: robert J gibbons</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33175</link>
		<dc:creator>robert J gibbons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33175</guid>
		<description>I am a layman with three questions provoked by your article:
answers could be very simple; (1( Nonsense; (2) interesting but irrelevent; (3)
worth a reply.

(1) as the speed of light is a constant, could there possibly be a comparable or analogic constant for gravity?

(2)  Is it possibe for two massive black holes to collide and or merge with each other and if so is there a mathetical or theoritical model for this or, indeed, an astronomical or empirical observation which can only be explained by postulatiing such phenomena?

(3) Could these speculations possibly having any bearing on dark mater?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a layman with three questions provoked by your article:<br />
answers could be very simple; (1( Nonsense; (2) interesting but irrelevent; (3)<br />
worth a reply.</p>
<p>(1) as the speed of light is a constant, could there possibly be a comparable or analogic constant for gravity?</p>
<p>(2)  Is it possibe for two massive black holes to collide and or merge with each other and if so is there a mathetical or theoritical model for this or, indeed, an astronomical or empirical observation which can only be explained by postulatiing such phenomena?</p>
<p>(3) Could these speculations possibly having any bearing on dark mater?</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33274</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33274</guid>
		<description>&quot;.. to magically reproduce its predictions in case after case.&quot;

There is the other case,  &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2007/darkdwarfs&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; the colliding
galaxies:&lt;/A&gt;

&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt; Astronomers studying dwarf galaxies
formed from the debris of a collision of larger galaxies found the
dwarfs much more massive than expected, and think the additional
material is &quot;missing mass&quot; that theorists said should not be
present in this kind of dwarf galaxy.

The scientists used the National Science Foundation&#039;s Very Large
Array (VLA) radio telescope to study a galaxy called NGC 5291, 200
million light-years from Earth. This galaxy collided with another
360 million years ago, and the collision shot streams of gas and
stars outward. Later, the dwarf galaxies formed from the ejected
debris.

&quot;Our detailed studies of three &#039;recycled&#039; dwarf galaxies in this
system showed that the dwarfs have twice as much unseen matter as
visible matter. This was surprising, because they were expected to
have very little unseen matter,&quot; said Frederic Bournaud, of the
French astrophysics laboratory AIM of the French CEA and CNRS.
Bournaud and his colleagues announced their discovery in the May
10 online issue of the journal Science.
 &lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

So, how can the Dark Matter Theory explain this observation ?

As concerns the Bullet cluster, it would be interesting to map
also the distribution of cold hydrogen (before starting a
respectable hype about the First Direct Observation of the Dark
Matter (at the risk to mould a bullet:)); one might be even not
convinced that we observe the end of cluster collision,
not the beginning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;.. to magically reproduce its predictions in case after case.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is the other case,  <a HREF="http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2007/darkdwarfs" rel="nofollow"> the colliding<br />
galaxies:</a></p>
<blockquote><p> Astronomers studying dwarf galaxies<br />
formed from the debris of a collision of larger galaxies found the<br />
dwarfs much more massive than expected, and think the additional<br />
material is &#8220;missing mass&#8221; that theorists said should not be<br />
present in this kind of dwarf galaxy.</p>
<p>The scientists used the National Science Foundation&#8217;s Very Large<br />
Array (VLA) radio telescope to study a galaxy called NGC 5291, 200<br />
million light-years from Earth. This galaxy collided with another<br />
360 million years ago, and the collision shot streams of gas and<br />
stars outward. Later, the dwarf galaxies formed from the ejected<br />
debris.</p>
<p>&#8220;Our detailed studies of three &#8216;recycled&#8217; dwarf galaxies in this<br />
system showed that the dwarfs have twice as much unseen matter as<br />
visible matter. This was surprising, because they were expected to<br />
have very little unseen matter,&#8221; said Frederic Bournaud, of the<br />
French astrophysics laboratory AIM of the French CEA and CNRS.<br />
Bournaud and his colleagues announced their discovery in the May<br />
10 online issue of the journal Science.
 </p></blockquote>
<p>So, how can the Dark Matter Theory explain this observation ?</p>
<p>As concerns the Bullet cluster, it would be interesting to map<br />
also the distribution of cold hydrogen (before starting a<br />
respectable hype about the First Direct Observation of the Dark<br />
Matter (at the risk to mould a bullet:)); one might be even not<br />
convinced that we observe the end of cluster collision,<br />
not the beginning.</p>
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		<title>By: John Merryman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33151</link>
		<dc:creator>John Merryman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/01/dark-matter-still-existing/#comment-33151</guid>
		<description>We would all be speechless and thoughtless, if we were only allowed to discuss and contemplate ideas that are both true and original.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We would all be speechless and thoughtless, if we were only allowed to discuss and contemplate ideas that are both true and original.</p>
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