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	<title>Comments on: What Is Interesting?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: A Dour Year for Physics &#187; Undress Me Robot</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35339</link>
		<dc:creator>A Dour Year for Physics &#187; Undress Me Robot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35339</guid>
		<description>[...] As Sean at (again) Cosmic Variance notes: Lurking behind the debate over the high energy physics budget is a meta question that rarely gets addressed head-on: in a world with many things that we would like to do, but limited resources to do them, how do we decide what questions are interesting enough to warrant our attention? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As Sean at (again) Cosmic Variance notes: Lurking behind the debate over the high energy physics budget is a meta question that rarely gets addressed head-on: in a world with many things that we would like to do, but limited resources to do them, how do we decide what questions are interesting enough to warrant our attention? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: systemic - transit valuations</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35350</link>
		<dc:creator>systemic - transit valuations</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 00:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35350</guid>
		<description>[...] in terms of a dollar price tag paid by the public, and Sean Carroll over at Cosmic Variance has a post on this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in terms of a dollar price tag paid by the public, and Sean Carroll over at Cosmic Variance has a post on this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chanda</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35336</link>
		<dc:creator>Chanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35336</guid>
		<description>City On A Hill Press, the UC Santa Cruz student paper, did a series of articles a couple of weeks ago on privatization at the University of California. I&#039;m having a hard time finding the links because their website appears to be failing to function, but here is the link to one by Claire Walla, the Co-Editor in Chief, that I posted on my &lt;a href=&quot;http://disorderedcosmos.blogspot.com/2007/11/because-im-attention-whore-and-im.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;blog.&lt;/a&gt;

Ike - I agree with your assessment, and I think the impact is much more insidious than what happens to research. Education also completely gets lost in the mix! The university I go to now is a good example of what happens when you let a corporation (RIM, maker of BlackBerry)** run the show: resources are unevenly distributed (for example, the Institute for Quantum Computing is awash in money but the physics department can barely pay its TAs), the students don&#039;t care about anything except getting that hot corporate job, and the idea of a broad and meaningful education for the sake of learning is totally lost on a significant portion of the population.

I think the academy should do everything possible to maintain its independence from corporate interests. This means that the public should remain committed to maintaining the academy&#039;s integrity and providing the academy with the funding it needs.

**It should be noted that I am completely aware of Perimeter&#039;s relationship with RIM&#039;s co-founder Mike Laziridis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>City On A Hill Press, the UC Santa Cruz student paper, did a series of articles a couple of weeks ago on privatization at the University of California. I&#8217;m having a hard time finding the links because their website appears to be failing to function, but here is the link to one by Claire Walla, the Co-Editor in Chief, that I posted on my <a href="http://disorderedcosmos.blogspot.com/2007/11/because-im-attention-whore-and-im.html" rel="nofollow">blog.</a></p>
<p>Ike &#8211; I agree with your assessment, and I think the impact is much more insidious than what happens to research. Education also completely gets lost in the mix! The university I go to now is a good example of what happens when you let a corporation (RIM, maker of BlackBerry)** run the show: resources are unevenly distributed (for example, the Institute for Quantum Computing is awash in money but the physics department can barely pay its TAs), the students don&#8217;t care about anything except getting that hot corporate job, and the idea of a broad and meaningful education for the sake of learning is totally lost on a significant portion of the population.</p>
<p>I think the academy should do everything possible to maintain its independence from corporate interests. This means that the public should remain committed to maintaining the academy&#8217;s integrity and providing the academy with the funding it needs.</p>
<p>**It should be noted that I am completely aware of Perimeter&#8217;s relationship with RIM&#8217;s co-founder Mike Laziridis.</p>
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		<title>By: Ike Solem</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35338</link>
		<dc:creator>Ike Solem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2007 03:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35338</guid>
		<description>Nico - those are good arguments, but I&#039;m going to rely on Ernest Rutherford for the response - and as he said, &quot;You cannot serve God and Mammon both.&quot;

The relationship between patent law and basic research should be pretty obvious.  Essentially, if large corporations are denied sole control of university patents (which, as human growth hormone has shown, can be worth hundreds of millions of dollars), then they will suddenly realize the value of Bell Labs -style support of technical research.  This is a good role for corporate interests - to move basic research concepts into commercially viable applications.  In fact, this has been the traditional role of corporate research - until Bayh-Dole came along in the early 1980s.

Once corporate business interests are kicked out of the university system, the focus on basic research will be re-invigorated. Why is basic research important? There are hundred of examples.  There are no commercial applications of Hubbert&#039;s discovery of red-shifted receding galaxies, but isn&#039;t that an fundamentally important discovery that has had major impacts on our view of the universe?

The fact of the matter is that U.S. academic science is in a serious crisis due to this obsession with patentable, profitable research.  There is no reasonable excuse for doing proprietary research on the public dollar, period. The best solution to this dilemma is the previously described reform of Bayh-Dole law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nico &#8211; those are good arguments, but I&#8217;m going to rely on Ernest Rutherford for the response &#8211; and as he said, &#8220;You cannot serve God and Mammon both.&#8221;</p>
<p>The relationship between patent law and basic research should be pretty obvious.  Essentially, if large corporations are denied sole control of university patents (which, as human growth hormone has shown, can be worth hundreds of millions of dollars), then they will suddenly realize the value of Bell Labs -style support of technical research.  This is a good role for corporate interests &#8211; to move basic research concepts into commercially viable applications.  In fact, this has been the traditional role of corporate research &#8211; until Bayh-Dole came along in the early 1980s.</p>
<p>Once corporate business interests are kicked out of the university system, the focus on basic research will be re-invigorated. Why is basic research important? There are hundred of examples.  There are no commercial applications of Hubbert&#8217;s discovery of red-shifted receding galaxies, but isn&#8217;t that an fundamentally important discovery that has had major impacts on our view of the universe?</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that U.S. academic science is in a serious crisis due to this obsession with patentable, profitable research.  There is no reasonable excuse for doing proprietary research on the public dollar, period. The best solution to this dilemma is the previously described reform of Bayh-Dole law.</p>
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		<title>By: Nico</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35388</link>
		<dc:creator>Nico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 15:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35388</guid>
		<description>Ike,

You did not show the causal relationship between your patent law proposal and the supposed benefit of bringing basics research to the fore.

I&#039;d also note in the Omnibus Bill the Congress let the R&amp;D tax credit expire; so much for encouraging the Bell Lab model.

Finally how does proposed change affect to compensation model in universities.  In many universities the faculty retain an intellectual property interest in their inventions (unlike at most companies).  Removing this benefit removes in a statistical sense at least faculty compensation.  Does this make academia less attractive for the most inventive faculty?  I don&#039;t know, but I do know that one should consider unintended consequences before changing intellectual property law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ike,</p>
<p>You did not show the causal relationship between your patent law proposal and the supposed benefit of bringing basics research to the fore.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d also note in the Omnibus Bill the Congress let the R&amp;D tax credit expire; so much for encouraging the Bell Lab model.</p>
<p>Finally how does proposed change affect to compensation model in universities.  In many universities the faculty retain an intellectual property interest in their inventions (unlike at most companies).  Removing this benefit removes in a statistical sense at least faculty compensation.  Does this make academia less attractive for the most inventive faculty?  I don&#8217;t know, but I do know that one should consider unintended consequences before changing intellectual property law.</p>
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		<title>By: Ike Solem</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35387</link>
		<dc:creator>Ike Solem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35387</guid>
		<description>There is one political factor here that is being ignored: the push for patented, profit-generating research in the nation&#039;s universities.  Anyone who has been around biomedical research knows this is true, and the philosophy has largely been adopted by many leading university administrators.  This means they steer funds towards patent-generating research (which doesn&#039;t include high-energy physics, cosmology, or many other areas of science).

The key thing in basic research is the free and open exchange of ideas and information.  This is completely opposite to the key thing in private research, which is protecting the company&#039;s trade secrets from competitors and being the first to patent.  Unfortunately, the latter philosophy is becoming the norm in many university research departments - to the serious detriment of basic scientific research across the board.

This might be affecting the distribution of funds between solid-state physics and particle physics, but more importantly it might also be affecting the direction of research away from basic inquiry and towards proprietary research.  There&#039;s a simple fix to this, however: make all publicly funded research and patents available to all under non-exclusive licensing agreements.

This would have some very beneficial effects on U.S. academic research - basic research would come back to the fore, with the traditional free exchange of data and ideas, and large corporations would go back to the AT&amp;T Bell Labs model of private research - which was very successful, having produced the semiconductor-based microchip as well as the semiconductor-based solar panel.  These proprietary inventions can then be used to expand the scope of basic research (The Hubble Telescope is powered by solar panels, for example).

A simple reform of the Bayh-Dole Act is all that is needed: universities may patent their inventions, but any research that involves public funds must be made available to all under non-exclusive licensing agreements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is one political factor here that is being ignored: the push for patented, profit-generating research in the nation&#8217;s universities.  Anyone who has been around biomedical research knows this is true, and the philosophy has largely been adopted by many leading university administrators.  This means they steer funds towards patent-generating research (which doesn&#8217;t include high-energy physics, cosmology, or many other areas of science).</p>
<p>The key thing in basic research is the free and open exchange of ideas and information.  This is completely opposite to the key thing in private research, which is protecting the company&#8217;s trade secrets from competitors and being the first to patent.  Unfortunately, the latter philosophy is becoming the norm in many university research departments &#8211; to the serious detriment of basic scientific research across the board.</p>
<p>This might be affecting the distribution of funds between solid-state physics and particle physics, but more importantly it might also be affecting the direction of research away from basic inquiry and towards proprietary research.  There&#8217;s a simple fix to this, however: make all publicly funded research and patents available to all under non-exclusive licensing agreements.</p>
<p>This would have some very beneficial effects on U.S. academic research &#8211; basic research would come back to the fore, with the traditional free exchange of data and ideas, and large corporations would go back to the AT&amp;T Bell Labs model of private research &#8211; which was very successful, having produced the semiconductor-based microchip as well as the semiconductor-based solar panel.  These proprietary inventions can then be used to expand the scope of basic research (The Hubble Telescope is powered by solar panels, for example).</p>
<p>A simple reform of the Bayh-Dole Act is all that is needed: universities may patent their inventions, but any research that involves public funds must be made available to all under non-exclusive licensing agreements.</p>
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		<title>By: capitalistimperialistpig</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35386</link>
		<dc:creator>capitalistimperialistpig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 03:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35386</guid>
		<description>Jason H. &lt;i&gt;&quot;Oh, and scientists should also quit whining and compete in the real world.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Be careful what you wish for!  Wolfgang B, physicist turned financial guy, has pointed out that converting high energy physicists to investment bankers has produced some scary results.  Think about the path from Omega prime to omega sub-prime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason H. <i>&#8220;Oh, and scientists should also quit whining and compete in the real world.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Be careful what you wish for!  Wolfgang B, physicist turned financial guy, has pointed out that converting high energy physicists to investment bankers has produced some scary results.  Think about the path from Omega prime to omega sub-prime.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris W.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35337</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 01:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35337</guid>
		<description>Chanda, thanks for &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-307182&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;your comment&lt;/a&gt;.

People should understand that most of the world&#039;s current problems---the most important ones---aren&#039;t so different from difficult research problems in physics, in precisely this sense. They will require many years of sustained problem-solving efforts, and a willingness to preserve the infrastructure and learning communities that contribute to those efforts. Sometimes I really wonder if there is any serious comprehension of this among the country&#039;s business and political leadership. The societal dynamic referred to by the phrase &quot;creative destruction,&quot; that free market ideologues are so fond of, allows little room for such sustained efforts.

[The above may be stated too categorically, but maybe that will provoke a discussion.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chanda, thanks for <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-307182" rel="nofollow">your comment</a>.</p>
<p>People should understand that most of the world&#8217;s current problems&#8212;the most important ones&#8212;aren&#8217;t so different from difficult research problems in physics, in precisely this sense. They will require many years of sustained problem-solving efforts, and a willingness to preserve the infrastructure and learning communities that contribute to those efforts. Sometimes I really wonder if there is any serious comprehension of this among the country&#8217;s business and political leadership. The societal dynamic referred to by the phrase &#8220;creative destruction,&#8221; that free market ideologues are so fond of, allows little room for such sustained efforts.</p>
<p>[The above may be stated too categorically, but maybe that will provoke a discussion.]</p>
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		<title>By: Spear Mark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35385</link>
		<dc:creator>Spear Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35385</guid>
		<description>Well, I think the case has always been and always will be strong to keep doing HEP research.  We are exploring matter and energy at one extreme.. highest energies and shortest distances empirically possible.

The real reason is not to fill in entries in tables about the Standard Model or even Supersymmetry.  Actually, those are just the default hypotheses.

The real reason is to find an incredible surprise.  It happened before... in the 1920&#039;s Rutherford himself likened any practical uses of nuclear energy to moonshine.  Simultaneously he urged his young colleagues to search for the neutron, so Chadwick&#039;s prepared mind was ready to discover the neutron when the Curies missed it.  Then there was the whole trail to fission, with Fermi himself mentioning the false discovery of Ausenium and Hesperium in his Nobel lecture, and it taking the exiled Lise Meitner to sort it all out.  All entangled with Nazis and well...  one of the greatest stories ever told.

The point is: it could all happen again.  Our default hypotheses could be as wrong as Rutherford in the 1920&#039;s.

I thought it was a good idea to have 2 experiments at the Tevatron.  We all hoped the second would be clever and innovative at low cost, and I think in many ways, D0 has done so.  Certainly they influenced calorimetry at the LHC.

But also the importance of tracking and the solenoidal spectrometer of CDF won.  D0 started arguing to keep up with CDF.  Eventually all the cleverness of the very capable D0 guys is better applied to one of the two detectors at the LHC.  In human terms it is hard to accomplish... people want to optimize their gadget and it is hard to pick up and move to another continent (both physically and intellectually).  Well, in the end, it is happening naturally.

I think 2 detectors at the LHC is OK.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I think the case has always been and always will be strong to keep doing HEP research.  We are exploring matter and energy at one extreme.. highest energies and shortest distances empirically possible.</p>
<p>The real reason is not to fill in entries in tables about the Standard Model or even Supersymmetry.  Actually, those are just the default hypotheses.</p>
<p>The real reason is to find an incredible surprise.  It happened before&#8230; in the 1920&#8217;s Rutherford himself likened any practical uses of nuclear energy to moonshine.  Simultaneously he urged his young colleagues to search for the neutron, so Chadwick&#8217;s prepared mind was ready to discover the neutron when the Curies missed it.  Then there was the whole trail to fission, with Fermi himself mentioning the false discovery of Ausenium and Hesperium in his Nobel lecture, and it taking the exiled Lise Meitner to sort it all out.  All entangled with Nazis and well&#8230;  one of the greatest stories ever told.</p>
<p>The point is: it could all happen again.  Our default hypotheses could be as wrong as Rutherford in the 1920&#8217;s.</p>
<p>I thought it was a good idea to have 2 experiments at the Tevatron.  We all hoped the second would be clever and innovative at low cost, and I think in many ways, D0 has done so.  Certainly they influenced calorimetry at the LHC.</p>
<p>But also the importance of tracking and the solenoidal spectrometer of CDF won.  D0 started arguing to keep up with CDF.  Eventually all the cleverness of the very capable D0 guys is better applied to one of the two detectors at the LHC.  In human terms it is hard to accomplish&#8230; people want to optimize their gadget and it is hard to pick up and move to another continent (both physically and intellectually).  Well, in the end, it is happening naturally.</p>
<p>I think 2 detectors at the LHC is OK.</p>
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		<title>By: f15mos</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/comment-page-1/#comment-35349</link>
		<dc:creator>f15mos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/20/what-is-interesting/#comment-35349</guid>
		<description>Peter,

This is good thing that your are enthusiastic about what you do. I do research in HEP as well, and I enjoy every minute of it. But sometimes, in the days like these I sit back and I think, am I digging my own grave? Are there more than 2,000 people interested in what I personally do? Am I turning in a kind of mental masturbator, who, in addition needs to ask kind folks of the US to give me the money to continue to enjoy myself?

I keep going back to SSC cause this experience struck me pretty hard. I never could&#039;ve imagined that a project can be canceled after so much has already been spent. I recall that physicists were drawing all sorts of lessons from  SSC. Among those the chief lessons were mentioned
   1) have effort international to attract external funding
   2) do not promise what you cannot deliver.

Interestingly that is seems that (1) is not working! ITER and ILC both have &quot;International&quot; in its name. Both are axed! The real reason I believe is that american people do not want to share, they want (in their hearts) to be exclusively superior or they need nothing at all. ISS is still limping along though...

(2) was still violated in Tevatron Run II TDR. The luminosity Tevatron delivered in 2007 was promised to be delivered in 2002! However successful Tevatron now, it still looks like a failure to anyone outside. This compound a cool attitude towards Fermilab.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter,</p>
<p>This is good thing that your are enthusiastic about what you do. I do research in HEP as well, and I enjoy every minute of it. But sometimes, in the days like these I sit back and I think, am I digging my own grave? Are there more than 2,000 people interested in what I personally do? Am I turning in a kind of mental masturbator, who, in addition needs to ask kind folks of the US to give me the money to continue to enjoy myself?</p>
<p>I keep going back to SSC cause this experience struck me pretty hard. I never could&#8217;ve imagined that a project can be canceled after so much has already been spent. I recall that physicists were drawing all sorts of lessons from  SSC. Among those the chief lessons were mentioned<br />
   1) have effort international to attract external funding<br />
   2) do not promise what you cannot deliver.</p>
<p>Interestingly that is seems that (1) is not working! ITER and ILC both have &#8220;International&#8221; in its name. Both are axed! The real reason I believe is that american people do not want to share, they want (in their hearts) to be exclusively superior or they need nothing at all. ISS is still limping along though&#8230;</p>
<p>(2) was still violated in Tevatron Run II TDR. The luminosity Tevatron delivered in 2007 was promised to be delivered in 2002! However successful Tevatron now, it still looks like a failure to anyone outside. This compound a cool attitude towards Fermilab.</p>
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