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	<title>Comments on: Dark Matter: Still Dark.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: TERRY FRASER</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36265</link>
		<dc:creator>TERRY FRASER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 04:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36265</guid>
		<description>Hi, I think there is a good piont in this conversation and it is that no one wants to see a simple picture of an oval circle that has photon sensitivity in the center. The dark matter is most likely created by photon layer plates with dark matter plates separeting each other.When the plates compress there is more speed , heat , and visible electromagnetic field,and when the plates are more space the plates cool,slow down and no visible electromagnetic field.The center of the galaxy most likely is like a black hole that has cool plates entering or sucked in,then compressed to super heat, plates ejecting the very visible electromagnetic field,the gravity that is created is the plates transfer particle mass through closeing and opening of the collecting plates.Just to make life fun think of what is making this enery hole since you might now know of how black holes work,something besides collapsing stars are doing this,excuse me if this ending sounds strange.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I think there is a good piont in this conversation and it is that no one wants to see a simple picture of an oval circle that has photon sensitivity in the center. The dark matter is most likely created by photon layer plates with dark matter plates separeting each other.When the plates compress there is more speed , heat , and visible electromagnetic field,and when the plates are more space the plates cool,slow down and no visible electromagnetic field.The center of the galaxy most likely is like a black hole that has cool plates entering or sucked in,then compressed to super heat, plates ejecting the very visible electromagnetic field,the gravity that is created is the plates transfer particle mass through closeing and opening of the collecting plates.Just to make life fun think of what is making this enery hole since you might now know of how black holes work,something besides collapsing stars are doing this,excuse me if this ending sounds strange.</p>
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		<title>By: John Merryman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36264</link>
		<dc:creator>John Merryman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36264</guid>
		<description>Lawrence,

 I agree that time isn&#039;t a fundamental dimension, rather that it is a consequence of motion, rather than the basis for it. As such, this makes it similar to temperature, rather than space, but that doesn&#039;t make it any less real from our perspective, as anyone who has been burned can tell. What it means is that we are more illusion than time is. To the extent there is some fundamental unity of being, it is as essential basis, rather than ideal form.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lawrence,</p>
<p> I agree that time isn&#8217;t a fundamental dimension, rather that it is a consequence of motion, rather than the basis for it. As such, this makes it similar to temperature, rather than space, but that doesn&#8217;t make it any less real from our perspective, as anyone who has been burned can tell. What it means is that we are more illusion than time is. To the extent there is some fundamental unity of being, it is as essential basis, rather than ideal form.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal S</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36263</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36263</guid>
		<description>Lawrence,

For benign unrelated reasons I don&#039;t plan on posting comments for some time, I just want to thank you for your comments :-)

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lawrence,</p>
<p>For benign unrelated reasons I don&#8217;t plan on posting comments for some time, I just want to thank you for your comments <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36262</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36262</guid>
		<description>As for fractals, there is a Hausdorff dimension with the renormalization group of running parameters.  So there is a fractal-like nature to this physics.

Lawrence B. Crowell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for fractals, there is a Hausdorff dimension with the renormalization group of running parameters.  So there is a fractal-like nature to this physics.</p>
<p>Lawrence B. Crowell</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36187</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36187</guid>
		<description>With reactive power I would say the analogue is with an uncertainty in energy that emerges by probing of the vacuum.  The question to ponder is whether that ZPE is there if it is not measured, or if there is nothing coupling to it.

I am not sure how the equipartition theorem comes into this picture.

The number three plays a most interesting role with the triality in group theories, such as the 3 + bar-3 long roots of SU(3) which have some connection to the three families of quarks.  The number 5 also comes in with my work in the Steiner group as the representation of a sporadic group.  A subgroup of this is S^3xSL_2(7), which is a three sphere with each point identified with a projective map of E_8 onto the Fano plane.  So here the numbers 3 and 7 come in, 7 being a favorite number of the bible types.  This is a sort of three dimensional Bloch sphere where each point is a set of states given by E_8, with three independent E_8&#039;s required.

There is no intrinsic notion of time in the Wheeler DeWitt equation.  The ADM classical constraint equation H = 0 becomes H*Y[g] = 0, and where time enters into the picture it is something the analyst inputs. The lapse functions N are determined by a coordinate condition, analogous to a gauge.  One way in which we can do this is to impose a field on the metric g.  For that field F we give a wave equation and it is not hard to introduce a phase on the wave functional Y[g, F] so that the W-D equation is extended to

$latex
i\frac{\delta Y}{\delta t}~=~HY~\rightarrow~iK&#039;_tY~=~HY.
 $

for K_t a Killing vector.  Now remember, this field is defined within some scaling or conformal setting.  We can just as well chose another field conformally scaled otherwise.  This wave equation is perfectly time reverse invariant, even if this &quot;time&quot; is in a sense fake.  If we have another metric g&#039; it has a similar wave functional X[g&#039;, F&#039;] and wave equation

$latex
i\frac{\delta X}{\delta t&#039;}~=~HX~\rightarrow~iK&#039;_tX~=~HX.
 $

Yet covariance requires that K_t =/= K&#039;_t and so we can&#039;t describe a superposition of states, and a path integration over possible states

$latex
Z~=~\int \delta [g]exp^{iS},
$

where S includes NH, is not defined in the usual sense as some parameterization of states in a time ordered sense.  There is no single definition of time.

The course graining of these metric configurations leads to an energy uncertainty functional

$latex
\delta E_g ~\sim~ &#124;\nabla (g~-~g&#039;)&#124;^2,
$

which describes a coarse graining over many metric configurations.  Most of these wave functionals are over metric configuration variables which have no classical description, or in fact have no possible dynamical (diffeomorphic) description.  These 4-manifolds are &quot;fake&quot; and this course graining of possible metric configurations, with these as well, introduces this error functional.  The Cartan center of E_8 describes the set of possible M^4&#039;s and these &quot;fake&quot; manifolds.  This is in part why I think quantum gravity requires the S^3xSL_2(7) \subset M_{24} or more fundamentally M_{24} as a quantum error correction code, which embeds three E_8&#039;s --- an E_8xE_8 for the graded heterotic supergravity field theory and the third for this configuration of all possible spacetimes.  In the restricted S^3xSL_2(7) this is the Bloch sphere where each point on it is a &quot;vector&quot; in a three space spanned by the Fano planes associated with these three E_8&#039;s.  S^3xSL_2(7) has 1440 roots and is itself a formidable challenge, but this represents a best first approach.

So fundamentally there is no such thing as time, or a time which describes the vacua at or &quot;near&quot; the start point of the path integral of the universe.  It is hard to avoid tensed language here, and English is very time ordered.  Russian might actually be a better language to use.  Time is something which obtains on a larger scale as a coarse graining over all possible states with different metric configuration variables.

It is interesting that in our world time is probably the second most feared thing, with the first being death.  Of course the two are related in that death is a sort of ultimate deadline.  Yet when one thinks about these matters with some depth these worries are put in a proper perspective.  Ultimately what we fear the most is an sort of illusion, or a holographic projection.

Lawrence B. Crowell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With reactive power I would say the analogue is with an uncertainty in energy that emerges by probing of the vacuum.  The question to ponder is whether that ZPE is there if it is not measured, or if there is nothing coupling to it.</p>
<p>I am not sure how the equipartition theorem comes into this picture.</p>
<p>The number three plays a most interesting role with the triality in group theories, such as the 3 + bar-3 long roots of SU(3) which have some connection to the three families of quarks.  The number 5 also comes in with my work in the Steiner group as the representation of a sporadic group.  A subgroup of this is S^3xSL_2(7), which is a three sphere with each point identified with a projective map of E_8 onto the Fano plane.  So here the numbers 3 and 7 come in, 7 being a favorite number of the bible types.  This is a sort of three dimensional Bloch sphere where each point is a set of states given by E_8, with three independent E_8&#8217;s required.</p>
<p>There is no intrinsic notion of time in the Wheeler DeWitt equation.  The ADM classical constraint equation H = 0 becomes H*Y[g] = 0, and where time enters into the picture it is something the analyst inputs. The lapse functions N are determined by a coordinate condition, analogous to a gauge.  One way in which we can do this is to impose a field on the metric g.  For that field F we give a wave equation and it is not hard to introduce a phase on the wave functional Y[g, F] so that the W-D equation is extended to</p>
<p>$latex<br />
i\frac{\delta Y}{\delta t}~=~HY~\rightarrow~iK&#8217;_tY~=~HY.<br />
 $</p>
<p>for K_t a Killing vector.  Now remember, this field is defined within some scaling or conformal setting.  We can just as well chose another field conformally scaled otherwise.  This wave equation is perfectly time reverse invariant, even if this &#8220;time&#8221; is in a sense fake.  If we have another metric g&#8217; it has a similar wave functional X[g', F'] and wave equation</p>
<p>$latex<br />
i\frac{\delta X}{\delta t&#8217;}~=~HX~\rightarrow~iK&#8217;_tX~=~HX.<br />
 $</p>
<p>Yet covariance requires that K_t =/= K&#8217;_t and so we can&#8217;t describe a superposition of states, and a path integration over possible states</p>
<p>$latex<br />
Z~=~\int \delta [g]exp^{iS},<br />
$</p>
<p>where S includes NH, is not defined in the usual sense as some parameterization of states in a time ordered sense.  There is no single definition of time.</p>
<p>The course graining of these metric configurations leads to an energy uncertainty functional</p>
<p>$latex<br />
\delta E_g ~\sim~ |\nabla (g~-~g&#8217;)|^2,<br />
$</p>
<p>which describes a coarse graining over many metric configurations.  Most of these wave functionals are over metric configuration variables which have no classical description, or in fact have no possible dynamical (diffeomorphic) description.  These 4-manifolds are &#8220;fake&#8221; and this course graining of possible metric configurations, with these as well, introduces this error functional.  The Cartan center of E_8 describes the set of possible M^4&#8217;s and these &#8220;fake&#8221; manifolds.  This is in part why I think quantum gravity requires the S^3xSL_2(7) \subset M_{24} or more fundamentally M_{24} as a quantum error correction code, which embeds three E_8&#8217;s &#8212; an E_8xE_8 for the graded heterotic supergravity field theory and the third for this configuration of all possible spacetimes.  In the restricted S^3xSL_2(7) this is the Bloch sphere where each point on it is a &#8220;vector&#8221; in a three space spanned by the Fano planes associated with these three E_8&#8217;s.  S^3xSL_2(7) has 1440 roots and is itself a formidable challenge, but this represents a best first approach.</p>
<p>So fundamentally there is no such thing as time, or a time which describes the vacua at or &#8220;near&#8221; the start point of the path integral of the universe.  It is hard to avoid tensed language here, and English is very time ordered.  Russian might actually be a better language to use.  Time is something which obtains on a larger scale as a coarse graining over all possible states with different metric configuration variables.</p>
<p>It is interesting that in our world time is probably the second most feared thing, with the first being death.  Of course the two are related in that death is a sort of ultimate deadline.  Yet when one thinks about these matters with some depth these worries are put in a proper perspective.  Ultimately what we fear the most is an sort of illusion, or a holographic projection.</p>
<p>Lawrence B. Crowell</p>
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		<title>By: John Merryman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36261</link>
		<dc:creator>John Merryman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36261</guid>
		<description>Lawrence,

&lt;blockquote&gt;In QED the cut-off in energy at high energy is permitted because the structure of the theory below the cut-off is self-similar to the physics above. So the cut-off is permitted in a way similar to a Julia set algorithm can cut off the calculation on a certain scale without adulterating the set at a larger scale. The foundational nature of renormalization is encoded in the renormalization group equation, &lt;/blockquote&gt;

 Why does this sound like some form of fractals all the way through?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lawrence,</p>
<blockquote><p>In QED the cut-off in energy at high energy is permitted because the structure of the theory below the cut-off is self-similar to the physics above. So the cut-off is permitted in a way similar to a Julia set algorithm can cut off the calculation on a certain scale without adulterating the set at a larger scale. The foundational nature of renormalization is encoded in the renormalization group equation, </p></blockquote>
<p> Why does this sound like some form of fractals all the way through?</p>
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		<title>By: Hal S</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36260</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36260</guid>
		<description>funny how 3 seems to pop up a lot in nature

hmmmm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>funny how 3 seems to pop up a lot in nature</p>
<p>hmmmm</p>
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		<title>By: Hal S</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36259</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36259</guid>
		<description>Of course what makes this more interesting is how it relates to Entropy:

$latex  S = k  \ln \Omega $

$latex  \int \frac{\delta E}{T}\ = \frac{h \nu}{T} = k \ln 3 $

hmmm...3 microstates....hmmm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course what makes this more interesting is how it relates to Entropy:</p>
<img src='http://s.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%20S%20%3D%20k%20%20%5Cln%20%5COmega%20&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt=' S = k  \ln \Omega ' title=' S = k  \ln \Omega ' class='latex' />
<img src='http://s.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%20%5Cint%20%5Cfrac%7B%5Cdelta%20E%7D%7BT%7D%5C%20%3D%20%5Cfrac%7Bh%20%5Cnu%7D%7BT%7D%20%3D%20k%20%5Cln%203%20&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt=' \int \frac{\delta E}{T}\ = \frac{h \nu}{T} = k \ln 3 ' title=' \int \frac{\delta E}{T}\ = \frac{h \nu}{T} = k \ln 3 ' class='latex' />
<p>hmmm&#8230;3 microstates&#8230;.hmmm</p>
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		<title>By: Hal S</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36258</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36258</guid>
		<description>I also like this approach:

The uncertainty principle is tied to the concept of reactive power in AC electrical theory

Reactive Power (Q):
The power which is exchanged between reactive elements (inductors and capacitors) is called reactive power, Q, and is measured in vars (volt-ampere-reactive) or kilovars.  This power does no useful mechanical work, but must be alternately absorbed and supplied by the reactive elements.

another link about this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_power#Real.2C_reactive.2C_and_apparent_power

So in a naive way, you could consider &quot;ZPE&quot; as meaning that the circuitry of the universe is always in an energized state. (pre-energized).

Just interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also like this approach:</p>
<p>The uncertainty principle is tied to the concept of reactive power in AC electrical theory</p>
<p>Reactive Power (Q):<br />
The power which is exchanged between reactive elements (inductors and capacitors) is called reactive power, Q, and is measured in vars (volt-ampere-reactive) or kilovars.  This power does no useful mechanical work, but must be alternately absorbed and supplied by the reactive elements.</p>
<p>another link about this;</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_power#Real.2C_reactive.2C_and_apparent_power" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_power#Real.2C_reactive.2C_and_apparent_power</a></p>
<p>So in a naive way, you could consider &#8220;ZPE&#8221; as meaning that the circuitry of the universe is always in an energized state. (pre-energized).</p>
<p>Just interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal S</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/comment-page-2/#comment-36257</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/01/16/dark-matter-still-dark/#comment-36257</guid>
		<description>This situation is well discussed at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipartition_theorem

under the section called:

Failure due to quantum effects

Where our equation describes the situation when Z = 3/2</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This situation is well discussed at:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipartition_theorem" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipartition_theorem</a></p>
<p>under the section called:</p>
<p>Failure due to quantum effects</p>
<p>Where our equation describes the situation when Z = 3/2</p>
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