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	<title>Comments on: Dunbar&#8217;s Number</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: dilbert dogbert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36742</link>
		<dc:creator>dilbert dogbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 02:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36742</guid>
		<description>A retired teacher friend commented on this in relationship to the optimum size of a high school.  As and old country boy he said:  In a small school everyone knows everyone and there usually only a couple of trouble makers who need to be kept track of.  The trouble makers also, when running as a pack are not big enough to seriously disrupt the school.  When school sizes go beyond about 300 the trouble maker population grows and the pack size gets big enough that now you need full time police.  He worked in a high school in Stocton Ca that had a two cell lockup on campus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A retired teacher friend commented on this in relationship to the optimum size of a high school.  As and old country boy he said:  In a small school everyone knows everyone and there usually only a couple of trouble makers who need to be kept track of.  The trouble makers also, when running as a pack are not big enough to seriously disrupt the school.  When school sizes go beyond about 300 the trouble maker population grows and the pack size gets big enough that now you need full time police.  He worked in a high school in Stocton Ca that had a two cell lockup on campus.</p>
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		<title>By: Ole Phat Stu</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36749</link>
		<dc:creator>Ole Phat Stu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36749</guid>
		<description>Dunbar&#039;s number is 153 to be more precise.

It says so in the Bible, already!

&quot;Peter cast out his nets and caught many fishes.
And the number of fishes was 153&quot; or words to that effect.

Of course the Hebrews were into numerical symbology 2000 years ago, assigning different values to each letter. Interestingly, the sum of the digits of the Greek word PETRUS is 153. And the sum of the digits of the greek word for Nets is also 153; just them old scribes playing a numbers game.

I wonder if the sum of the digits of Dunbar is 153 too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dunbar&#8217;s number is 153 to be more precise.</p>
<p>It says so in the Bible, already!</p>
<p>&#8220;Peter cast out his nets and caught many fishes.<br />
And the number of fishes was 153&#8243; or words to that effect.</p>
<p>Of course the Hebrews were into numerical symbology 2000 years ago, assigning different values to each letter. Interestingly, the sum of the digits of the Greek word PETRUS is 153. And the sum of the digits of the greek word for Nets is also 153; just them old scribes playing a numbers game.</p>
<p>I wonder if the sum of the digits of Dunbar is 153 too?</p>
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		<title>By: Damian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36759</link>
		<dc:creator>Damian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36759</guid>
		<description>The Tipping Point by Malocolm Gladwell devotes a chapter to Dunbar&#039;s number.
He says that a religious group called Hutterites live by it, splitting their communities in two once the population reaches 150.He also talks about a company (GoreTex from memory) that never has more than 150 employees in any plant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Tipping Point by Malocolm Gladwell devotes a chapter to Dunbar&#8217;s number.<br />
He says that a religious group called Hutterites live by it, splitting their communities in two once the population reaches 150.He also talks about a company (GoreTex from memory) that never has more than 150 employees in any plant.</p>
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		<title>By: Allyson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36758</link>
		<dc:creator>Allyson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 17:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36758</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read something similiar (maybe from Clay Shirky?) regarding online communities, with the magic number being 300 as the maximium amount of active users a community can hold before breaking off into subcommunities (likely due to Godwin&#039;s or Snacky&#039;s laws).

I think it was in a study of The Well. Must. Go. Google....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read something similiar (maybe from Clay Shirky?) regarding online communities, with the magic number being 300 as the maximium amount of active users a community can hold before breaking off into subcommunities (likely due to Godwin&#8217;s or Snacky&#8217;s laws).</p>
<p>I think it was in a study of The Well. Must. Go. Google&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: garyb50</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36757</link>
		<dc:creator>garyb50</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36757</guid>
		<description>Just asked my wife (the intellectual in the family) if she&#039;d ever heard of this and she said no. But when I started describing it she said, &quot;you know, I saw something on TV just recently about Mennonites limiting the size of their communities to 150. When it grew bigger they split off to start another.&quot;

Don&#039;t know if it&#039;s true but it&#039;s interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just asked my wife (the intellectual in the family) if she&#8217;d ever heard of this and she said no. But when I started describing it she said, &#8220;you know, I saw something on TV just recently about Mennonites limiting the size of their communities to 150. When it grew bigger they split off to start another.&#8221;</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s true but it&#8217;s interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Burns</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36748</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Burns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36748</guid>
		<description>Hi Sean,

Long time reader, first time writer...

Despite living in LA, I have never met a successful actor (or unsuccessful one for that matter).  But my girlfriend has met several, and she describes them as projecting such warmth and having such an ability to charm you to such an extraordinary degree that you would swear they were your best friend.  I have heard Magic Johnson described in the same way.  Perhaps the politicians you describe, who sound very charismatic indeed, are doing the same thing.

Best,
Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sean,</p>
<p>Long time reader, first time writer&#8230;</p>
<p>Despite living in LA, I have never met a successful actor (or unsuccessful one for that matter).  But my girlfriend has met several, and she describes them as projecting such warmth and having such an ability to charm you to such an extraordinary degree that you would swear they were your best friend.  I have heard Magic Johnson described in the same way.  Perhaps the politicians you describe, who sound very charismatic indeed, are doing the same thing.</p>
<p>Best,<br />
Steve</p>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36756</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36756</guid>
		<description>Hi Sean:

&lt;i&gt;Perhaps their neocortices have the unusual ability to maintain relationships (or at least appear to) with far more than the conventional 150?&lt;/i&gt;

Without any irony, this might indeed be the case, and our present political
system does just select the &#039;fittest&#039; with regard to this ability. The sad thing is thought that this is not an adaption to external change, but it&#039;s us ourselves who change the environment we live in faster than our brains can possibly adapt to it, so that most of us &#039;fit&#039; only inappropriately. Evolution just takes time, and the human brain didn&#039;t evolve to cope with 300 emails a day, 200 &#039;friends&#039; on facebook, and all the information available on the www.

Coincidentally, I came across Dunbar only yesterday in a book I am currently
reading, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.homerdixon.com/ingenuitygap/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;The Ingenuity
Gap&quot;&lt;/a&gt; by Homer-Dixon. I can really recommend it if you are interested in
this kind of questions like, how well can we humans cope with the
increasing complexity of our societies. Let me quote the paragraph
following the explanation of Dunbar&#039;s studies:

&quot;A capacity to monitor 150 other people was probably quite satisfactory for
most human beings until the twentieth century. But today&#039;s information
technologies have extended our reach to a far vaster community - indeed, the
community is, for all intents and purposes, infinitely large. And there&#039;s an
implicit expectation that we should be able to smoothly manage our complex
interactions with all the members of this community. Given our evolutionary
heritage, it&#039;s not surprising that most of us fail to live up to this
challenge. It&#039;s not surprising, either, to hear that the rising incidence of
depression and other anxiety-related mental illnesses in our societies might
be partly caused by this failure.&quot;

(Comes with references that I&#039;ve left out). For an review of his newer book &lt;a href=&quot;http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/10/book-review-upside-of-down.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;see here&lt;/a&gt;. He does a great job bridging the gap between sociology, politics, and natural sciences (biology, physics, neuroscience etc).

Best,

B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sean:</p>
<p><i>Perhaps their neocortices have the unusual ability to maintain relationships (or at least appear to) with far more than the conventional 150?</i></p>
<p>Without any irony, this might indeed be the case, and our present political<br />
system does just select the &#8216;fittest&#8217; with regard to this ability. The sad thing is thought that this is not an adaption to external change, but it&#8217;s us ourselves who change the environment we live in faster than our brains can possibly adapt to it, so that most of us &#8216;fit&#8217; only inappropriately. Evolution just takes time, and the human brain didn&#8217;t evolve to cope with 300 emails a day, 200 &#8216;friends&#8217; on facebook, and all the information available on the www.</p>
<p>Coincidentally, I came across Dunbar only yesterday in a book I am currently<br />
reading, <a href="http://www.homerdixon.com/ingenuitygap/" rel="nofollow">&#8220;The Ingenuity<br />
Gap&#8221;</a> by Homer-Dixon. I can really recommend it if you are interested in<br />
this kind of questions like, how well can we humans cope with the<br />
increasing complexity of our societies. Let me quote the paragraph<br />
following the explanation of Dunbar&#8217;s studies:</p>
<p>&#8220;A capacity to monitor 150 other people was probably quite satisfactory for<br />
most human beings until the twentieth century. But today&#8217;s information<br />
technologies have extended our reach to a far vaster community &#8211; indeed, the<br />
community is, for all intents and purposes, infinitely large. And there&#8217;s an<br />
implicit expectation that we should be able to smoothly manage our complex<br />
interactions with all the members of this community. Given our evolutionary<br />
heritage, it&#8217;s not surprising that most of us fail to live up to this<br />
challenge. It&#8217;s not surprising, either, to hear that the rising incidence of<br />
depression and other anxiety-related mental illnesses in our societies might<br />
be partly caused by this failure.&#8221;</p>
<p>(Comes with references that I&#8217;ve left out). For an review of his newer book <a href="http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/10/book-review-upside-of-down.html" rel="nofollow">see here</a>. He does a great job bridging the gap between sociology, politics, and natural sciences (biology, physics, neuroscience etc).</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>B.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36747</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 13:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36747</guid>
		<description>Farley files go back to FDR,  James Farley, Roosevelt&#039;s campaign manager, kept files on everyone FDR has ever met, updating them as needed, and briefing Roosevelt whenever he met those people again.  Politicians (who are not generally noted for their neocortical development) have been using Farley files ever since.

As for Farley files and science fiction, see Robert Heinlein&#039;s Double Star.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Farley files go back to FDR,  James Farley, Roosevelt&#8217;s campaign manager, kept files on everyone FDR has ever met, updating them as needed, and briefing Roosevelt whenever he met those people again.  Politicians (who are not generally noted for their neocortical development) have been using Farley files ever since.</p>
<p>As for Farley files and science fiction, see Robert Heinlein&#8217;s Double Star.</p>
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		<title>By: Snoop</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36746</link>
		<dc:creator>Snoop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 12:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36746</guid>
		<description>I remember a fun talk given by a theoretical chemist back when I was in grad school.  He had spent a lot of time studying aggregation processes, clustering etc. and found that this Dunbar&#039;s number (or thereabouts) was also the maximum size of a typical aggregate (any bigger and it splits), suggesting a more fundamental basis for this number than just the number of social interactions a human can maintain.

I also remember him connecting this to some French social theorist (Levi-Strauss?) who also found that the maximum size of a tribal society is about the same number.  To maintain larger societies, we humans have to sort of subsume our individuality to some extent.  It gets a bit blurry here, I remember something about &quot;icons&quot; being introduced to represent a new &quot;unit&quot; of social structure (maybe like a congressional district or something), and collections of these &quot;icons&quot; were best kept under Dunbar&#039;s number too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember a fun talk given by a theoretical chemist back when I was in grad school.  He had spent a lot of time studying aggregation processes, clustering etc. and found that this Dunbar&#8217;s number (or thereabouts) was also the maximum size of a typical aggregate (any bigger and it splits), suggesting a more fundamental basis for this number than just the number of social interactions a human can maintain.</p>
<p>I also remember him connecting this to some French social theorist (Levi-Strauss?) who also found that the maximum size of a tribal society is about the same number.  To maintain larger societies, we humans have to sort of subsume our individuality to some extent.  It gets a bit blurry here, I remember something about &#8220;icons&#8221; being introduced to represent a new &#8220;unit&#8221; of social structure (maybe like a congressional district or something), and collections of these &#8220;icons&#8221; were best kept under Dunbar&#8217;s number too.</p>
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		<title>By: zeferino</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/comment-page-1/#comment-36743</link>
		<dc:creator>zeferino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/04/dunbars-number/#comment-36743</guid>
		<description>Some people are really really good at pretending they know you but really have no clue.  I worked as a Legal Assistant for years and learned this pretty quickly.  Once you pretend to recognize someone, they volunteer information about your last interaction and all you have to do is realistically pretend to remember while gaining valuable information that may or may not jog your memory or at least provide relavent conversation topic(s).  I&#039;m sure politicians (often attorneys) are the best pretenders yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people are really really good at pretending they know you but really have no clue.  I worked as a Legal Assistant for years and learned this pretty quickly.  Once you pretend to recognize someone, they volunteer information about your last interaction and all you have to do is realistically pretend to remember while gaining valuable information that may or may not jog your memory or at least provide relavent conversation topic(s).  I&#8217;m sure politicians (often attorneys) are the best pretenders yet.</p>
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