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	<title>Comments on: Girls Welcome</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Tammy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37365</link>
		<dc:creator>Tammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37365</guid>
		<description>Sean,
I read this article and thought the first half was great.  It even drew on the historical context of women in computers, but by the end I felt like the entire theme had shifted.  Rather than talking about these smart, talented young women leading technology, the author basically decided that girls only do it so they can talk more (because girls like to talk, you know).  As a woman physicist (and lover of technology) I get annoyed at these kind of articles because there is this unspoken assumption that things related to technology are somehow unfeminine!   I ranted about it &lt;a&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; just a little.  It felt like the author had to justify why these young women were attracted to technology by tying it to a gender stereotype - though I must say that a lot of my male colleagues talk MUCH more than I do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean,<br />
I read this article and thought the first half was great.  It even drew on the historical context of women in computers, but by the end I felt like the entire theme had shifted.  Rather than talking about these smart, talented young women leading technology, the author basically decided that girls only do it so they can talk more (because girls like to talk, you know).  As a woman physicist (and lover of technology) I get annoyed at these kind of articles because there is this unspoken assumption that things related to technology are somehow unfeminine!   I ranted about it <a>here</a> just a little.  It felt like the author had to justify why these young women were attracted to technology by tying it to a gender stereotype &#8211; though I must say that a lot of my male colleagues talk MUCH more than I do.</p>
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		<title>By: Amiya Sarkar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37364</link>
		<dc:creator>Amiya Sarkar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37364</guid>
		<description>Girls are taking to blogs: Doomsday is indeed near!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Girls are taking to blogs: Doomsday is indeed near!</p>
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		<title>By: Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37396</link>
		<dc:creator>Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 01:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37396</guid>
		<description>Hey, tstr, wrt control statements being so essential to coding, maybe control statements are overrated. Rule-based systems aren&#039;t just recursion-friendly, they&#039;re recursion-cuddly. I   already have gobs of fun with XSLT (in its non-horribly procedural manifestation) and expect to be learning lots more things like it.


What about helping girls hack their Barbie dolls so that, instead of saying &quot;Math is hard&quot; they&#039;ll say &quot;Linear algebra is cool.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, tstr, wrt control statements being so essential to coding, maybe control statements are overrated. Rule-based systems aren&#8217;t just recursion-friendly, they&#8217;re recursion-cuddly. I   already have gobs of fun with XSLT (in its non-horribly procedural manifestation) and expect to be learning lots more things like it.</p>
<p>What about helping girls hack their Barbie dolls so that, instead of saying &#8220;Math is hard&#8221; they&#8217;ll say &#8220;Linear algebra is cool.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Count Iblis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37363</link>
		<dc:creator>Count Iblis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 23:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37363</guid>
		<description>Maynard, I agree that more rigorous tests have to be performed. However, one can just try to teach math, physics etc. to kids and see what the results are. Today we don&#039;t do that at all.

Haelfix, that&#039;s my experience too. In primary school you learn arithmetic and after spending a few years there you have mastered it. My father taught me some math when I was 10 years old. By age 12 I had mastered calculus. I could set up differential equations and solve them.


Thought experiment. Suppose you randomly select 100 average children of age 12. You then offer them $1000,000 if they pass graduate level exams on Quantum Mechanics, Electromagnetism and General Relativity at age 18. They will get all the necessary tutoring for free. How many will win the prize?  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maynard, I agree that more rigorous tests have to be performed. However, one can just try to teach math, physics etc. to kids and see what the results are. Today we don&#8217;t do that at all.</p>
<p>Haelfix, that&#8217;s my experience too. In primary school you learn arithmetic and after spending a few years there you have mastered it. My father taught me some math when I was 10 years old. By age 12 I had mastered calculus. I could set up differential equations and solve them.</p>
<p>Thought experiment. Suppose you randomly select 100 average children of age 12. You then offer them $1000,000 if they pass graduate level exams on Quantum Mechanics, Electromagnetism and General Relativity at age 18. They will get all the necessary tutoring for free. How many will win the prize?  <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37395</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 22:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37395</guid>
		<description>Allyson said: &lt;em&gt;But they’re producing more television programs than ever before, and running more television studios. &lt;/em&gt;

That only proves my point that women like interacting more with people, men like interacting more with things.  And putting content online is about artistic expression, it just uses a new (albeit technological) medium.  Women have always been doing that.  The point here is that there is no indicator that women are going to flood science or engineering jobs any time soon.

It&#039;s not that they&#039;re aren&#039;t smart enough or that they think differently.  Hell, we could use more women in science and engineering.  It&#039;s just that &lt;em&gt;they have different interests.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allyson said: <em>But they’re producing more television programs than ever before, and running more television studios. </em></p>
<p>That only proves my point that women like interacting more with people, men like interacting more with things.  And putting content online is about artistic expression, it just uses a new (albeit technological) medium.  Women have always been doing that.  The point here is that there is no indicator that women are going to flood science or engineering jobs any time soon.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not that they&#8217;re aren&#8217;t smart enough or that they think differently.  Hell, we could use more women in science and engineering.  It&#8217;s just that <em>they have different interests.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Haelfix</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37369</link>
		<dc:creator>Haelfix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37369</guid>
		<description>Theres like a ridiculous lull period somewhere between the age of 9-13 in mathematics in the US, where more or less the entire curriculum could be condensed into a one year course.  Theres no added difficulty really, its just more memorization (and we know kids can do that).  Thats where the majority of serious students have the opportunity to start skipping grades/classes (I skipped some when I was younger, but could have again somewhere around there).  Their are societal issues with kids skipping grades though, so i&#039;d just assume everyone did it... Moreover, other countries do it with great results.

Its no coincidence one summer at say a math/physics/computer camp can put people like 3 years ahead of everyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theres like a ridiculous lull period somewhere between the age of 9-13 in mathematics in the US, where more or less the entire curriculum could be condensed into a one year course.  Theres no added difficulty really, its just more memorization (and we know kids can do that).  Thats where the majority of serious students have the opportunity to start skipping grades/classes (I skipped some when I was younger, but could have again somewhere around there).  Their are societal issues with kids skipping grades though, so i&#8217;d just assume everyone did it&#8230; Moreover, other countries do it with great results.</p>
<p>Its no coincidence one summer at say a math/physics/computer camp can put people like 3 years ahead of everyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: Lab Lemming</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37368</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 11:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37368</guid>
		<description>&quot;And another thing is the fact that almost no math is taught to 12 to 18 year olds. There is no good excuse for that at all.&quot;

What about algebra, trig, and (sometimes) calculus?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And another thing is the fact that almost no math is taught to 12 to 18 year olds. There is no good excuse for that at all.&#8221;</p>
<p>What about algebra, trig, and (sometimes) calculus?</p>
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		<title>By: ts</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37394</link>
		<dc:creator>ts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 09:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37394</guid>
		<description>Whatever the original article intends to convey, it&#039;s a great news for online predators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever the original article intends to convey, it&#8217;s a great news for online predators.</p>
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		<title>By: Maynard Handley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37393</link>
		<dc:creator>Maynard Handley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37393</guid>
		<description>&quot;There was a study mentioned on NGC channel’s &quot;My brillaint brain&quot;, in which babies were taught to play certain intelectually challenging games. The study showed that when they had grown up they did on average much better in school.&quot;

This is mildly interesting but I&#039;d have to see a lot more evidence to be convinced. I suspect what we may have here is much like the claims that playing Mozart to your baby will make it smarter (or at least a musical genius).
Was there, for example, a control population, that was also treated specially, but just not given &quot;intellectually challenging games&quot;. ie was the effect perhaps just the result of extra TLC in childhood? Or was it a selection effect, ie parents who are willing to enroll in and then sustain having there children in these sorts of programs probably have children that are going to do better than average anyway through either genetics or home culture.

One has to be really careful with these sorts of studies because what one finds is often really subtle. For example (properly done) studies have shown that yes, children from English speaking homes, if exposed to Mandarin Chinese when young, will find it easier to learn the language as they grow older. BUT, and who would have guessed it, certainly not me, the exposure has to be in HUMAN form, ie caregivers chattering to the kids, making faces and so on. Just hearing the language in the background, or even watching TV with various types of Mandarin content has a statistically insignificant effect.

Unfortunately education seems to be a field that is massively driven by what people believe HAS to be true, and more so than most fields (for obvious reasons) has a wide gap between the &quot;consumers&quot; of education (the kids), and those that pay for it (partially parents, mostly the state), so it is especially susceptible to &quot;research&quot; showing that whatever ails kids, the answer is to buy my product or hire my consultancy.
There&#039;s precious little good research done in education, and that which is done is then buried when it turns up results people don&#039;t want to hear (vide the lack of widespread adoption of directed learning in spite of the substantial evidence that, for the class of students for which it is intended, it works better than anything else currently known.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There was a study mentioned on NGC channel’s &#8220;My brillaint brain&#8221;, in which babies were taught to play certain intelectually challenging games. The study showed that when they had grown up they did on average much better in school.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is mildly interesting but I&#8217;d have to see a lot more evidence to be convinced. I suspect what we may have here is much like the claims that playing Mozart to your baby will make it smarter (or at least a musical genius).<br />
Was there, for example, a control population, that was also treated specially, but just not given &#8220;intellectually challenging games&#8221;. ie was the effect perhaps just the result of extra TLC in childhood? Or was it a selection effect, ie parents who are willing to enroll in and then sustain having there children in these sorts of programs probably have children that are going to do better than average anyway through either genetics or home culture.</p>
<p>One has to be really careful with these sorts of studies because what one finds is often really subtle. For example (properly done) studies have shown that yes, children from English speaking homes, if exposed to Mandarin Chinese when young, will find it easier to learn the language as they grow older. BUT, and who would have guessed it, certainly not me, the exposure has to be in HUMAN form, ie caregivers chattering to the kids, making faces and so on. Just hearing the language in the background, or even watching TV with various types of Mandarin content has a statistically insignificant effect.</p>
<p>Unfortunately education seems to be a field that is massively driven by what people believe HAS to be true, and more so than most fields (for obvious reasons) has a wide gap between the &#8220;consumers&#8221; of education (the kids), and those that pay for it (partially parents, mostly the state), so it is especially susceptible to &#8220;research&#8221; showing that whatever ails kids, the answer is to buy my product or hire my consultancy.<br />
There&#8217;s precious little good research done in education, and that which is done is then buried when it turns up results people don&#8217;t want to hear (vide the lack of widespread adoption of directed learning in spite of the substantial evidence that, for the class of students for which it is intended, it works better than anything else currently known.)</p>
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		<title>By: Low Math, Meekly Interacting</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/comment-page-1/#comment-37392</link>
		<dc:creator>Low Math, Meekly Interacting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/02/21/girls-welcome/#comment-37392</guid>
		<description>i just don&#039;t think it&#039;s a very good article, and I&#039;m not sure the message is really all that positive.  Actually, the author seems to be trying to be coy about it, and I would have taken them severely to task had I been given any editorial power.  I mean, what&#039;s the point?  &quot;Grrrrls compute!&quot; or &quot;Even geeking out, girls are just girls&quot;?  To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, &quot;Ah don&#039; think it means hwhatchoo think it means...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i just don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a very good article, and I&#8217;m not sure the message is really all that positive.  Actually, the author seems to be trying to be coy about it, and I would have taken them severely to task had I been given any editorial power.  I mean, what&#8217;s the point?  &#8220;Grrrrls compute!&#8221; or &#8220;Even geeking out, girls are just girls&#8221;?  To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, &#8220;Ah don&#8217; think it means hwhatchoo think it means&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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