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	<title>Comments on: Politicians and Critics</title>
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		<title>By: Science vs Religion, part one million &#171; The United States of Jamerica</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38435</link>
		<dc:creator>Science vs Religion, part one million &#171; The United States of Jamerica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38435</guid>
		<description>[...] you on the difference between politicians and scientists, or politicians and critics, as I myself was elucidated a while ago. The difference, were you feeling ungenerous with your words, is just that: tact. You [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] you on the difference between politicians and scientists, or politicians and critics, as I myself was elucidated a while ago. The difference, were you feeling ungenerous with your words, is just that: tact. You [...] </p>
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		<title>By: I love evolution!! &#171; Overcoat Pocket</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38434</link>
		<dc:creator>I love evolution!! &#171; Overcoat Pocket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38434</guid>
		<description>[...] LOVE biology! I LOVE cephalapods! I respect the roll of the critic in public discourse. And, as previously mentioned, I LOVE evolution!! So, I read PZ Meyer&#039;s blog on a fairly regular [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] LOVE biology! I LOVE cephalapods! I respect the roll of the critic in public discourse. And, as previously mentioned, I LOVE evolution!! So, I read PZ Meyer&#8217;s blog on a fairly regular [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Framing &#171; Transient Reporter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38359</link>
		<dc:creator>Framing &#171; Transient Reporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38359</guid>
		<description>[...] Sean Carroll: &#8220;framing&#8220; [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sean Carroll: &#8220;framing&#8220; [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Bergman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38433</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Bergman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38433</guid>
		<description>Oh fun. I can have talk.origins flashbacks now....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh fun. I can have talk.origins flashbacks now&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Belizean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38408</link>
		<dc:creator>Belizean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38408</guid>
		<description>I saw &lt;i&gt;Expelled&lt;/i&gt; yesterday.  It is inaccurate to call it an &quot;anti-evolution movie&quot;.  It points out that Darwinism has well-known problems in explaining the origin of life.  [The simplest conceivable form of life (of the sort we know) seems to be far too complicated to have appeared by chance].  It argues that scientists who suggest intelligent design in an attempt to address Darwinism&#039;s shortcomings should be free to do so without losing their jobs.

It&#039;s most controversial part is its argument that in the absence of exceedingly powerful cultural programming to respect human life, human life will be less respected.  Such programming is not to be found within Darwinism.  On the contrary, the &quot;survival of the fittest&quot; motif taken as an ethical imperative have lead to eugenics movements and attempts to exterminate races deemed inferior.

It&#039;s most startling bit is near the end during an interview with Richard Dawkins.  Dr. Dawkins seems to agree with Francis Crick that a naturalistic version of intelligent design is a reasonable solution to the origin-of-life problem.

Why I liked the movie:

It exposed me to a new idea, which is pretty rare for a movie.  The idea is that for any set of physical laws there exists a most probable scheme by which life could have evolved.  Highly evolved versions of that most probable scheme could have designed new schemes for life (which are presumably better than the original scheme in some way) and could have seeded other planets with these.

What I did not like about the movie:

It didn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;explicitly&lt;/i&gt; state that the controversy is not about evolution but about naturalism.  Intelligent Design proponents are anti-naturalists in that they believe that certain aspects of reality are fundamentally unintelligible to the human mind.  &lt;i&gt;That&lt;/i&gt; is the source of the intolerance from the scientific establishment.  Anti-naturalism conflicts with a tacit metaphysical assumption behind science -- that we can in principle understand the whole of reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw <i>Expelled</i> yesterday.  It is inaccurate to call it an &#8220;anti-evolution movie&#8221;.  It points out that Darwinism has well-known problems in explaining the origin of life.  [The simplest conceivable form of life (of the sort we know) seems to be far too complicated to have appeared by chance].  It argues that scientists who suggest intelligent design in an attempt to address Darwinism&#8217;s shortcomings should be free to do so without losing their jobs.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s most controversial part is its argument that in the absence of exceedingly powerful cultural programming to respect human life, human life will be less respected.  Such programming is not to be found within Darwinism.  On the contrary, the &#8220;survival of the fittest&#8221; motif taken as an ethical imperative have lead to eugenics movements and attempts to exterminate races deemed inferior.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s most startling bit is near the end during an interview with Richard Dawkins.  Dr. Dawkins seems to agree with Francis Crick that a naturalistic version of intelligent design is a reasonable solution to the origin-of-life problem.</p>
<p>Why I liked the movie:</p>
<p>It exposed me to a new idea, which is pretty rare for a movie.  The idea is that for any set of physical laws there exists a most probable scheme by which life could have evolved.  Highly evolved versions of that most probable scheme could have designed new schemes for life (which are presumably better than the original scheme in some way) and could have seeded other planets with these.</p>
<p>What I did not like about the movie:</p>
<p>It didn&#8217;t <i>explicitly</i> state that the controversy is not about evolution but about naturalism.  Intelligent Design proponents are anti-naturalists in that they believe that certain aspects of reality are fundamentally unintelligible to the human mind.  <i>That</i> is the source of the intolerance from the scientific establishment.  Anti-naturalism conflicts with a tacit metaphysical assumption behind science &#8212; that we can in principle understand the whole of reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38340</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38340</guid>
		<description>Monotheistic systems are based upon the Abrahamist covenentism and on the Mosaic system of law.  By being based on law there is the implicit notion of the system being true.  After all in a court of law the purpose is to assertain the truth or falsity of a case and guilt and innocense as a result.  Although now I think the legal system is set up so lawyers can make more boat payments.  So this implies much more of a notion of truth than what existed in polytheistic systems.  It might also be argued that this lead to a sense that if God was a king of the universe (melech) then the universe must be ordered in a lawful fashion.

Lawrence B. Crowell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monotheistic systems are based upon the Abrahamist covenentism and on the Mosaic system of law.  By being based on law there is the implicit notion of the system being true.  After all in a court of law the purpose is to assertain the truth or falsity of a case and guilt and innocense as a result.  Although now I think the legal system is set up so lawyers can make more boat payments.  So this implies much more of a notion of truth than what existed in polytheistic systems.  It might also be argued that this lead to a sense that if God was a king of the universe (melech) then the universe must be ordered in a lawful fashion.</p>
<p>Lawrence B. Crowell</p>
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		<title>By: Neil B.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38409</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38409</guid>
		<description>Arun - you make interesting and clearly informed points.  To get a handle on it, here&#039;s what I think Dawkins was getting at: as time goes on, believers decide to think that such and such is so about Mary the mother of Jesus, etc, and it is taken as being a doctrine worth believing in. Well, we can ask, why should anyone believe this or that about her just because various Church scholars and leaders thought it so?  Sure, but we can ask that about the original core beliefs as well.  I think what is suspect about specific &quot;kitsch&quot; type doctrines is not their being innovations upon an original revelation, but that they are detailed &quot;peculiar&quot; claims that aren&#039;t as amenable to *philosophical* investigation and appreciation as say, basic and foundational ideas such as there must be an unmoved Prime Mover or Original Cause.  Now I must disagree with where I think you are going, for philosophical theologians take the latter very seriously (I sure do) and certainly don&#039;t consider them the equivalent of mere &quot;stories.&quot;  They are about the fundamental cause and meaning of the universe and our existence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arun &#8211; you make interesting and clearly informed points.  To get a handle on it, here&#8217;s what I think Dawkins was getting at: as time goes on, believers decide to think that such and such is so about Mary the mother of Jesus, etc, and it is taken as being a doctrine worth believing in. Well, we can ask, why should anyone believe this or that about her just because various Church scholars and leaders thought it so?  Sure, but we can ask that about the original core beliefs as well.  I think what is suspect about specific &#8220;kitsch&#8221; type doctrines is not their being innovations upon an original revelation, but that they are detailed &#8220;peculiar&#8221; claims that aren&#8217;t as amenable to *philosophical* investigation and appreciation as say, basic and foundational ideas such as there must be an unmoved Prime Mover or Original Cause.  Now I must disagree with where I think you are going, for philosophical theologians take the latter very seriously (I sure do) and certainly don&#8217;t consider them the equivalent of mere &#8220;stories.&#8221;  They are about the fundamental cause and meaning of the universe and our existence.</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38346</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 17:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38346</guid>
		<description>A second point: (and this exposition is why I find Myers, Dawkins and even Sean on this subject so poor reading):


&quot;Discussing the theological difficulties that polytheism allegedly creates, Dawkins continues:

&quot;How did the Greeks, the Romans and the Vikings cope with such polytheological conundrums? Was Venus just another name for Aphrodite, or were they two distinct goddesses of love? Was Thor with his hammer a manifestation of Wotan, or a separate god? Who cares? Life is too short to bother with the distinction between one figment of the imagination and many. Having gestured towards polytheism to cover myself against a charge of neglect, I shall say no more about it. For brevity I shall refer to all deities, whether poly- or monotheistic, as simply `God&#039;&quot; (Dawkins 2006: 35-6).

The first issue to point out is that Greek and Roman followers of the &quot;pagan&quot; traditions were not in the least bothered by such &quot;theological conundrums.&quot; This was the case, because to them the stories about Aphrodite, Venus, Zeus and Jupiter were just that: traditional stories, instead of theological doctrines (Balagangadhara 1994; Feeney 1998). To the Greeks and Romans, the stories were not subjects to truth claims; that is, the predicates &quot;true&quot; and &quot;false&quot; were simply not applicable to the many stories about the deities. Hence, many such apparently &quot;contradictory&quot; stories could co-exist without conflict.

It was only when the church fathers tried to show that the Greeks and Romans had &quot;false religion&quot; that suddenly these stories became bearers of truth value and that the so-called &quot;contradictions&quot; appeared. Like the Christian ancestors who shaped their thought, the Enlightenment philosophers failed to grasp that the Roman and Greek stories were not meant to be doctrines or descriptions of the world. Hence, they ridiculed these stories as &quot;mythologies,&quot; fictionalized and embellished accounts of human history (Hazard 1935). The difficulties that Dawkins notices are those created by Christians and Enlightenment philosophers, who tried to make sense of the traditional stories of Greece and Rome as
mythological doctrines.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A second point: (and this exposition is why I find Myers, Dawkins and even Sean on this subject so poor reading):</p>
<p>&#8220;Discussing the theological difficulties that polytheism allegedly creates, Dawkins continues:</p>
<p>&#8220;How did the Greeks, the Romans and the Vikings cope with such polytheological conundrums? Was Venus just another name for Aphrodite, or were they two distinct goddesses of love? Was Thor with his hammer a manifestation of Wotan, or a separate god? Who cares? Life is too short to bother with the distinction between one figment of the imagination and many. Having gestured towards polytheism to cover myself against a charge of neglect, I shall say no more about it. For brevity I shall refer to all deities, whether poly- or monotheistic, as simply `God&#8217;&#8221; (Dawkins 2006: 35-6).</p>
<p>The first issue to point out is that Greek and Roman followers of the &#8220;pagan&#8221; traditions were not in the least bothered by such &#8220;theological conundrums.&#8221; This was the case, because to them the stories about Aphrodite, Venus, Zeus and Jupiter were just that: traditional stories, instead of theological doctrines (Balagangadhara 1994; Feeney 1998). To the Greeks and Romans, the stories were not subjects to truth claims; that is, the predicates &#8220;true&#8221; and &#8220;false&#8221; were simply not applicable to the many stories about the deities. Hence, many such apparently &#8220;contradictory&#8221; stories could co-exist without conflict.</p>
<p>It was only when the church fathers tried to show that the Greeks and Romans had &#8220;false religion&#8221; that suddenly these stories became bearers of truth value and that the so-called &#8220;contradictions&#8221; appeared. Like the Christian ancestors who shaped their thought, the Enlightenment philosophers failed to grasp that the Roman and Greek stories were not meant to be doctrines or descriptions of the world. Hence, they ridiculed these stories as &#8220;mythologies,&#8221; fictionalized and embellished accounts of human history (Hazard 1935). The difficulties that Dawkins notices are those created by Christians and Enlightenment philosophers, who tried to make sense of the traditional stories of Greece and Rome as<br />
mythological doctrines.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38347</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 17:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38347</guid>
		<description>Reproduced without permission: Jakob de Roover, emphasis added by me.


In a memorable passage, Dawkins discusses the problem of Trinitarianism in Christianity and extends it to other forms of &quot;polytheism,&quot; such as the cult of the Virgin Mary and the saints in Roman-Catholicism. &quot;What impresses me about Catholic mythology,&quot; he shares with the reader, &quot;is partly its tasteless kitsch but mostly the airy nonchalance with which these people make up the details as they go along. It is just shamelessly invented&quot; (Dawkins 2006: 35).

As a reader, try to bracket away all presuppositions about religion and reread the sentences. If you succeed in doing so, the impact of Dawkins&#039; claim dissolves. So what, if certain details of Roman-Catholicism are human inventions? What is the problem in aspects of religion being &quot;shamelessly invented&quot;?

From a non-Christian, neutral point of view, it is unclear why Dawkins bothers to mention this. However, anyone with a basic understanding of the history of
Christianity will note where his claim comes from: Dawkins himself reproduces a piece of theology in this sentence (apparently without knowing it). From its earliest beginnings, Christianity claimed that it was the original and pure revelation of God, first given to Adam. This original revelation had been corrupted by sinful idolaters, seduced by the Devil into the worship of the false god and his minions. This corruption, according to Christian theology, took the
form of human additions to the pure divine revelation: rites and myths, fabricated by priests and prelates.

During the Protestant Reformation, Luther, Calvin and their followers began to accuse the Roman-Catholic Church of the same sin of idolatry. They cried that the pope and his priests had invented a plethora of dogmas and rituals and imposed these on the believer as though they were part of God&#039;s revelation and necessary to salvation. In this sense, the worst accusation one could make against Roman- Catholicism was that it consisted of &quot;shameless human inventions.&quot;

The Enlightenment philosophies extended such charges of idolatry to all of Christianity and to all &quot;religions&quot; of humanity. All of these, including the notion of God itself, were human fabrications, the atheists among them claimed. Ironically, Enlightenment atheism thus presupposed and built on the claims of Christian theology. &lt;B&gt;Without the background belief that there is something intrinsically wrong in religion being a human invention&#8212;very much a Christian belief&#8212;the impact of such charges simply disappears into thin air.&lt;/B&gt;

At this first level, Dawkins reproduces Christian theology, even though he masks it as an atheistic insight that is supposed to liberate humanity from religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reproduced without permission: Jakob de Roover, emphasis added by me.</p>
<p>In a memorable passage, Dawkins discusses the problem of Trinitarianism in Christianity and extends it to other forms of &#8220;polytheism,&#8221; such as the cult of the Virgin Mary and the saints in Roman-Catholicism. &#8220;What impresses me about Catholic mythology,&#8221; he shares with the reader, &#8220;is partly its tasteless kitsch but mostly the airy nonchalance with which these people make up the details as they go along. It is just shamelessly invented&#8221; (Dawkins 2006: 35).</p>
<p>As a reader, try to bracket away all presuppositions about religion and reread the sentences. If you succeed in doing so, the impact of Dawkins&#8217; claim dissolves. So what, if certain details of Roman-Catholicism are human inventions? What is the problem in aspects of religion being &#8220;shamelessly invented&#8221;?</p>
<p>From a non-Christian, neutral point of view, it is unclear why Dawkins bothers to mention this. However, anyone with a basic understanding of the history of<br />
Christianity will note where his claim comes from: Dawkins himself reproduces a piece of theology in this sentence (apparently without knowing it). From its earliest beginnings, Christianity claimed that it was the original and pure revelation of God, first given to Adam. This original revelation had been corrupted by sinful idolaters, seduced by the Devil into the worship of the false god and his minions. This corruption, according to Christian theology, took the<br />
form of human additions to the pure divine revelation: rites and myths, fabricated by priests and prelates.</p>
<p>During the Protestant Reformation, Luther, Calvin and their followers began to accuse the Roman-Catholic Church of the same sin of idolatry. They cried that the pope and his priests had invented a plethora of dogmas and rituals and imposed these on the believer as though they were part of God&#8217;s revelation and necessary to salvation. In this sense, the worst accusation one could make against Roman- Catholicism was that it consisted of &#8220;shameless human inventions.&#8221;</p>
<p>The Enlightenment philosophies extended such charges of idolatry to all of Christianity and to all &#8220;religions&#8221; of humanity. All of these, including the notion of God itself, were human fabrications, the atheists among them claimed. Ironically, Enlightenment atheism thus presupposed and built on the claims of Christian theology. <b>Without the background belief that there is something intrinsically wrong in religion being a human invention&mdash;very much a Christian belief&mdash;the impact of such charges simply disappears into thin air.</b></p>
<p>At this first level, Dawkins reproduces Christian theology, even though he masks it as an atheistic insight that is supposed to liberate humanity from religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Commentary &#171; Twisted One 151&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38407</link>
		<dc:creator>Commentary &#171; Twisted One 151&#8217;s Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2008 18:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/23/politicians-and-critics/#comment-38407</guid>
		<description>[...]  Sean at  has a very good post about the PZ Myers/Expelled situation, and the resulting heated debate between [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Sean at  has a very good post about the PZ Myers/Expelled situation, and the resulting heated debate between [...] </p>
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