<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Incompatible Arrows, I:  Martin Amis</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 05:46:49 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Have a Thermodynamically Consistent Christmas &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-78386</link>
		<dc:creator>Have a Thermodynamically Consistent Christmas &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-78386</guid>
		<description>[...] the rest of the world is much stronger than that. (Likewise Egan&#8217;s time-reversed galaxy, or Martin Amis&#8217;s narrator in Time&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the rest of the world is much stronger than that. (Likewise Egan&#8217;s time-reversed galaxy, or Martin Amis&#8217;s narrator in Time&#8217;s [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dualist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-38588</link>
		<dc:creator>Dualist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-38588</guid>
		<description>Very interesting. Can&#039;t resist to read later parts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting. Can&#8217;t resist to read later parts.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Backwards in Time : Mormon Metaphysics</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-38558</link>
		<dc:creator>Backwards in Time : Mormon Metaphysics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-38558</guid>
		<description>[...] with characters going backwards in time at Cosmic Variance. Martin Mais, Kurt Vonnegut, and Lewis Carroll. (I&#8217;ll add more if others [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with characters going backwards in time at Cosmic Variance. Martin Mais, Kurt Vonnegut, and Lewis Carroll. (I&#8217;ll add more if others [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rat Poison</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-38587</link>
		<dc:creator>Rat Poison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-38587</guid>
		<description>Stepping back into a more relativized causality, what kind of interaction could an observer with a receive-from-past/transmits-to-future &quot;direction&quot; which is close to our conventional aggregates have with us?


errrr


... &quot;which is NOT close to&quot; or &quot;which is close to the REVERSE of&quot; our conventional aggregates...

Sometimes the metabolic half-life of caffeine is too short!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stepping back into a more relativized causality, what kind of interaction could an observer with a receive-from-past/transmits-to-future &#8220;direction&#8221; which is close to our conventional aggregates have with us?</p>
<p>errrr</p>
<p>&#8230; &#8220;which is NOT close to&#8221; or &#8220;which is close to the REVERSE of&#8221; our conventional aggregates&#8230;</p>
<p>Sometimes the metabolic half-life of caffeine is too short!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rat Poison</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-38559</link>
		<dc:creator>Rat Poison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-38559</guid>
		<description>Surely we can take a relativistic position and say that for any given event there is a future which can be signalled and a past from which signals  may be received?   The &quot;arrowhead&quot; of the arrow of time associated with such an event just points towards the future for our mental convenience.

Observation is concerned with the past; anything that can receive a signal is a potential observer, and anything that receives such a signal is an actual observer.    This applies to classical events as well as quantum ones.

Signalling is concerned with the future; anything that may generate a signal is a potential actor, anything that generates a signal is an actual actor.  Again, this applies to classical events as well as quantum ones.

For our own convenience we connect actual actors to appropriate actual observers with unidirectional arrows, and call those connections causal relationships.    We consider potential interactions similarly - connecting actual or potential actors to potential observers with unidirectional arrows.

Again for convenience (&quot;tractability&quot;) we reduce large sets of these unidirectional arrows, using aggregation, probabilistic approximations, and other arrow-hiding techniques.   We do this day in and day out in our classical lives, as well as when studying QM.   We do this consciously and unconsciously, and we really lack the facilities to *not* do this on a large scale.

We have little difficulty aggregating mildly disjoint sets of causal relationships, such as those involving different, spatially-separated actual observers.    We do this regularly in our own heads - as an example, most of us excel at aggregating lots of little photon-hits-photopsin-just-right events in our retina into a single flash of light.   We aggregate ourselves into a single actual observer of a single actual actor, observing a flash of lightning, and usually do not (and probably cannot *completely*) consider each discrete actor-observer relationship that we see first-second-third-or-nth hand, as excited particle releases hot photon, which in turn excites another particle or is scattered, and so on, all the way to the air proximal to our corneas, through our lenses and intraocular media, and into the retinal cell where a protein is deformed.    We also don&#039;t consider the actual result of the deformation (we generally assume a signal transduction is the result), and generally have a poor idea of nanoscopic behaviours from there all the way to the visual cortex, and practically no small-scale idea about what happens from that point at all.

We &quot;see&quot; one event and think of it as one event, although that is a conspiracy involving probabilities of observation by flash-detecting molecules, and how reliable their communication of such observations &quot;into the future&quot; are, which in turn depends on the probabililties of detecting those signals, and generating their own.

We readily impose our own approximation of causal relationships on observers nearby.  We assume that other people nearby see a similar flash, and can make assumptions about the behaviours of non-people observers that reflect, scatter, or absorb signals related to the flash, and assume that everything nearby has a substantially similar relationship to that particular past set of events.

What happens if we try to break this pattern of thinking?

We&#039;ve studied QM philosophical problems involving deliberately delaying the connection between actual event and potential observer in the form of cats and puppies, not to mention experiments involving extremely high refractive indices, and day to day experience with long optical fibre runs or communications that detour through a geosynchronous sattelite, meteor burst, or suitably reflective astronomical object (the moon has been done).    Astronomers see even longer delays in one-way paths from events, and cosmologists are pretty keen on observations which provide geodesics of dramatically different lengths from closely related events to terrestrial observers.

These causal relationships are all still unidirectional -- same arrowhead, but somewhat different shafts.

This lets us consider very warped causal relationships, where a signal we generate now is received very quickly by a spatially separated observer along path &quot;A&quot;, whose observation is immediately signalled back along path &quot;B&quot;, which is much much slower.   Other tricks for manipulating worldlines lead us into  the realm of whether CTCs can exist.

Correlating actor/observer interactions is useful for a variety of reasons, and a &quot;privileged aggregation&quot; is an attractive coordinate system.    Interactions within the CMBR are obviously attractive, and many cosmologists use the idea of other cosmologists who &quot;see&quot; the CMBR in various ways (such as with no dipole anisotropy) as a way of exploring questions involving a variety of correlated observations we make locally.   If we figure that there is a universally-available privileged view of the evolution of the CMBR, and use that as a &quot;universal&quot; arrow of time, then we *can* ask questions about observations available to potential observers that would have views of the CMBR with *huge* dipole anisotropies.

The salient questions to me are:

* assuming there is some privileged &quot;universally agreeable&quot; time coordinate system
* assuming that the time coordinate system will *typically* be perceived as monotonic increasing, or mappable to such a perception, for observers we can reason about

(a) what would be the potential observations available to an entity (human, classical or quantum) with an &quot;extreme&quot; mapping, and (b) can a mapping be &quot;extreme&quot; enough to be considered a reversal?

Stepping back into a more relativized causality, what kind of interaction could an observer with a receive-from-past/transmits-to-future &quot;direction&quot; which is close to our conventional aggregates have with us?

If a potential interaction is possible, can we transmit a backwards-moving observer some information we have in turn received &quot;conventionally&quot; from our past?    What would that observer learn?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely we can take a relativistic position and say that for any given event there is a future which can be signalled and a past from which signals  may be received?   The &#8220;arrowhead&#8221; of the arrow of time associated with such an event just points towards the future for our mental convenience.</p>
<p>Observation is concerned with the past; anything that can receive a signal is a potential observer, and anything that receives such a signal is an actual observer.    This applies to classical events as well as quantum ones.</p>
<p>Signalling is concerned with the future; anything that may generate a signal is a potential actor, anything that generates a signal is an actual actor.  Again, this applies to classical events as well as quantum ones.</p>
<p>For our own convenience we connect actual actors to appropriate actual observers with unidirectional arrows, and call those connections causal relationships.    We consider potential interactions similarly &#8211; connecting actual or potential actors to potential observers with unidirectional arrows.</p>
<p>Again for convenience (&#8221;tractability&#8221;) we reduce large sets of these unidirectional arrows, using aggregation, probabilistic approximations, and other arrow-hiding techniques.   We do this day in and day out in our classical lives, as well as when studying QM.   We do this consciously and unconsciously, and we really lack the facilities to *not* do this on a large scale.</p>
<p>We have little difficulty aggregating mildly disjoint sets of causal relationships, such as those involving different, spatially-separated actual observers.    We do this regularly in our own heads &#8211; as an example, most of us excel at aggregating lots of little photon-hits-photopsin-just-right events in our retina into a single flash of light.   We aggregate ourselves into a single actual observer of a single actual actor, observing a flash of lightning, and usually do not (and probably cannot *completely*) consider each discrete actor-observer relationship that we see first-second-third-or-nth hand, as excited particle releases hot photon, which in turn excites another particle or is scattered, and so on, all the way to the air proximal to our corneas, through our lenses and intraocular media, and into the retinal cell where a protein is deformed.    We also don&#8217;t consider the actual result of the deformation (we generally assume a signal transduction is the result), and generally have a poor idea of nanoscopic behaviours from there all the way to the visual cortex, and practically no small-scale idea about what happens from that point at all.</p>
<p>We &#8220;see&#8221; one event and think of it as one event, although that is a conspiracy involving probabilities of observation by flash-detecting molecules, and how reliable their communication of such observations &#8220;into the future&#8221; are, which in turn depends on the probabililties of detecting those signals, and generating their own.</p>
<p>We readily impose our own approximation of causal relationships on observers nearby.  We assume that other people nearby see a similar flash, and can make assumptions about the behaviours of non-people observers that reflect, scatter, or absorb signals related to the flash, and assume that everything nearby has a substantially similar relationship to that particular past set of events.</p>
<p>What happens if we try to break this pattern of thinking?</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve studied QM philosophical problems involving deliberately delaying the connection between actual event and potential observer in the form of cats and puppies, not to mention experiments involving extremely high refractive indices, and day to day experience with long optical fibre runs or communications that detour through a geosynchronous sattelite, meteor burst, or suitably reflective astronomical object (the moon has been done).    Astronomers see even longer delays in one-way paths from events, and cosmologists are pretty keen on observations which provide geodesics of dramatically different lengths from closely related events to terrestrial observers.</p>
<p>These causal relationships are all still unidirectional &#8212; same arrowhead, but somewhat different shafts.</p>
<p>This lets us consider very warped causal relationships, where a signal we generate now is received very quickly by a spatially separated observer along path &#8220;A&#8221;, whose observation is immediately signalled back along path &#8220;B&#8221;, which is much much slower.   Other tricks for manipulating worldlines lead us into  the realm of whether CTCs can exist.</p>
<p>Correlating actor/observer interactions is useful for a variety of reasons, and a &#8220;privileged aggregation&#8221; is an attractive coordinate system.    Interactions within the CMBR are obviously attractive, and many cosmologists use the idea of other cosmologists who &#8220;see&#8221; the CMBR in various ways (such as with no dipole anisotropy) as a way of exploring questions involving a variety of correlated observations we make locally.   If we figure that there is a universally-available privileged view of the evolution of the CMBR, and use that as a &#8220;universal&#8221; arrow of time, then we *can* ask questions about observations available to potential observers that would have views of the CMBR with *huge* dipole anisotropies.</p>
<p>The salient questions to me are:</p>
<p>* assuming there is some privileged &#8220;universally agreeable&#8221; time coordinate system<br />
* assuming that the time coordinate system will *typically* be perceived as monotonic increasing, or mappable to such a perception, for observers we can reason about</p>
<p>(a) what would be the potential observations available to an entity (human, classical or quantum) with an &#8220;extreme&#8221; mapping, and (b) can a mapping be &#8220;extreme&#8221; enough to be considered a reversal?</p>
<p>Stepping back into a more relativized causality, what kind of interaction could an observer with a receive-from-past/transmits-to-future &#8220;direction&#8221; which is close to our conventional aggregates have with us?</p>
<p>If a potential interaction is possible, can we transmit a backwards-moving observer some information we have in turn received &#8220;conventionally&#8221; from our past?    What would that observer learn?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-38586</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-38586</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised nobody has mentioned the movie &quot;Memento&quot; yet, probably the most well-known recent example.  It&#039;s developed a large fan base.

There also was a Seinfeld episode that took place in recent order.  The plot involved a trip that the characters took to India for a wedding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised nobody has mentioned the movie &#8220;Memento&#8221; yet, probably the most well-known recent example.  It&#8217;s developed a large fan base.</p>
<p>There also was a Seinfeld episode that took place in recent order.  The plot involved a trip that the characters took to India for a wedding.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shanth</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-38585</link>
		<dc:creator>Shanth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 18:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-38585</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s also the character Janus Poluektovich in the Strugatsky brothers&#039; &lt;em&gt;Monday begins on Saturday&lt;/em&gt;, who goes through time in a piecewise continuous fashion, living each day normally, and then jumping to the previous day at midnight.  It&#039;s a delightful book overall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s also the character Janus Poluektovich in the Strugatsky brothers&#8217; <em>Monday begins on Saturday</em>, who goes through time in a piecewise continuous fashion, living each day normally, and then jumping to the previous day at midnight.  It&#8217;s a delightful book overall.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jeff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-38576</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-38576</guid>
		<description>(Sorry! That last post should have been in incompatible arrows II)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Sorry! That last post should have been in incompatible arrows II)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jeff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-38575</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-38575</guid>
		<description>...Just to elaborate a little on my last post:  I once had a memorable experience that I&#039;m sure many others have also had. I was anesthetized for several hours while my wisdom teeth were removed. The amazing thing was that those hours went by instantaneously for me. I was asked to count backwards from 100, and when I got to 97 the doctor said, &quot;We&#039;re done!&quot; It was disorienting and hard to believe. A completely dreamless sleep. A sharp temporal discontinuity
- like a robot being turned off and on again.

When I recall that experience, I wonder if death might be like that - the ultimate temporal discontinuity. When you are dead, any finite amount of time will pass instantaneously. Twenty billion years or eight hundred googleplex years, it doesn&#039;t matter. As far as we know, consciousness ends permanently at death, effectively erasing time and pulling the plug on the universe. As long as it&#039;s finite, the universe will be over and gone as if it had never existed. A brief dream, and a dream without a dreamer has no chance of being remembered. On the other hand, if time extends infinitely into the future...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;Just to elaborate a little on my last post:  I once had a memorable experience that I&#8217;m sure many others have also had. I was anesthetized for several hours while my wisdom teeth were removed. The amazing thing was that those hours went by instantaneously for me. I was asked to count backwards from 100, and when I got to 97 the doctor said, &#8220;We&#8217;re done!&#8221; It was disorienting and hard to believe. A completely dreamless sleep. A sharp temporal discontinuity<br />
- like a robot being turned off and on again.</p>
<p>When I recall that experience, I wonder if death might be like that &#8211; the ultimate temporal discontinuity. When you are dead, any finite amount of time will pass instantaneously. Twenty billion years or eight hundred googleplex years, it doesn&#8217;t matter. As far as we know, consciousness ends permanently at death, effectively erasing time and pulling the plug on the universe. As long as it&#8217;s finite, the universe will be over and gone as if it had never existed. A brief dream, and a dream without a dreamer has no chance of being remembered. On the other hand, if time extends infinitely into the future&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ross Presser</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/comment-page-1/#comment-38584</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Presser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/31/incompatible-arrows-i-martin-amis/#comment-38584</guid>
		<description>One more example, not so masterful: &lt;i&gt;Bearing An Hourglass&lt;/i&gt; by Piers Anthony. Contains at least one extended scene where the hero&#039;s arrow is opposed to everyone else&#039;s &emdash; although he fudges a bit, making people who interact with the narrator have their arrow&#039;s &quot;partially&quot; reversed. (He has a conversation with a woman, whose sentences are backwards but progress forward in paragraphs; she eats backwards but speaks forward (sound travels from her mouth to the hero&#039;s ear), etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more example, not so masterful: <i>Bearing An Hourglass</i> by Piers Anthony. Contains at least one extended scene where the hero&#8217;s arrow is opposed to everyone else&#8217;s &emdash; although he fudges a bit, making people who interact with the narrator have their arrow&#8217;s &#8220;partially&#8221; reversed. (He has a conversation with a woman, whose sentences are backwards but progress forward in paragraphs; she eats backwards but speaks forward (sound travels from her mouth to the hero&#8217;s ear), etc.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic Page Served (once) in 0.258 seconds -->
<!-- Cached page served by WP-Cache -->
