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	<title>Comments on: Influence</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Mike M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39345</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39345</guid>
		<description>Nicole: you have no way of knowing whether that is true or not.  The only facts that are apparent are that Dr Towers produced a paper that claimed a statistically significant degree of gender discrimination.  An &lt;a href=&quot;http://okham.livejournal.com/9552.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;alternative analysis&lt;/a&gt; of the data found no such effect.  So the conclusion is demonstrably questionable.

The obvious way to check is to repeat the experiment and see if the statistics hold up or whether they are just noise.  Such a repeat failed to reproduce any claim of discrimination.  So either you can conclude that something has radically changed or that the original conclusion was flawed.

On the basis of the evidence provided, there is no way of telling which is the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicole: you have no way of knowing whether that is true or not.  The only facts that are apparent are that Dr Towers produced a paper that claimed a statistically significant degree of gender discrimination.  An <a href="http://okham.livejournal.com/9552.html" rel="nofollow">alternative analysis</a> of the data found no such effect.  So the conclusion is demonstrably questionable.</p>
<p>The obvious way to check is to repeat the experiment and see if the statistics hold up or whether they are just noise.  Such a repeat failed to reproduce any claim of discrimination.  So either you can conclude that something has radically changed or that the original conclusion was flawed.</p>
<p>On the basis of the evidence provided, there is no way of telling which is the case.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39377</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39377</guid>
		<description>Mike M, Dr. Towers sent a copy of her manuscript to the collaboration in 2006. This is why the situation for female post-docs subsequently improved. This information is in the Nature article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike M, Dr. Towers sent a copy of her manuscript to the collaboration in 2006. This is why the situation for female post-docs subsequently improved. This information is in the Nature article.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39376</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39376</guid>
		<description>The more recent data highlights the &quot;publication bias&quot; that is unavoidable when a result is claimed to be significant on the basis of such limited statistics: had Dr Towers based her analysis on the data from 2006/7 and discovered that women were over-represented in conference presentations over the period (though presumably not at a statistically-significant level), then presumably there would have been no arXiv preprint and no heated discussion here.  Or perhaps she would have kept looking for some other metric of perceived value until she found one that matched her prior, and published that instead.

And once again let me reiterate that I think it highly likely that sex discrimination exists in many places including particle physics: my point is only that those who &quot;prove&quot; it by such dubious means are actually doing more harm than good in making the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The more recent data highlights the &#8220;publication bias&#8221; that is unavoidable when a result is claimed to be significant on the basis of such limited statistics: had Dr Towers based her analysis on the data from 2006/7 and discovered that women were over-represented in conference presentations over the period (though presumably not at a statistically-significant level), then presumably there would have been no arXiv preprint and no heated discussion here.  Or perhaps she would have kept looking for some other metric of perceived value until she found one that matched her prior, and published that instead.</p>
<p>And once again let me reiterate that I think it highly likely that sex discrimination exists in many places including particle physics: my point is only that those who &#8220;prove&#8221; it by such dubious means are actually doing more harm than good in making the case.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Watts</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39334</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Watts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39334</guid>
		<description>There is now a nature article on this - http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080423/full/452918a.html - which has some hard numbers that D0 was able to put together on very short notice, as well as some context. Comments like those from Freya are pretty common in our field in the USA, unfortunately (see article). There is clearly work to be done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is now a nature article on this &#8211; <a href="http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080423/full/452918a.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080423/full/452918a.html</a> &#8211; which has some hard numbers that D0 was able to put together on very short notice, as well as some context. Comments like those from Freya are pretty common in our field in the USA, unfortunately (see article). There is clearly work to be done.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Erwin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39375</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Erwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39375</guid>
		<description>ike @ 44:
&lt;blockquote&gt;In such situations, the candidate’s &quot;parental lineage&quot; becomes a more important factor than the candidates actual abilities in terms of research and teaching. The reasons such tendencies are unhealthy should be obvious to anyone who wants to maintain a high-quality research and teaching institution.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In Spain, this is known as the &quot;endogamy problem&quot; (endogamy = marriage within the tribe or extended family).  It occurs because, as I understand it, university hiring committees usually include several prominent citizens from the local city, and these people will tend to favor applicants who are locals over those from other regions (or foreigners).  The result is that people who &lt;i&gt;aren&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; from that locality can sometimes have a harder time getting faculty or equivalent positions.

(This isn&#039;t nepotism in the strict sense -- the people being favored are not necessarily directly related to the hiring committee; they&#039;re just &quot;locals&quot;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ike @ 44:</p>
<blockquote><p>In such situations, the candidate’s &#8220;parental lineage&#8221; becomes a more important factor than the candidates actual abilities in terms of research and teaching. The reasons such tendencies are unhealthy should be obvious to anyone who wants to maintain a high-quality research and teaching institution.</p></blockquote>
<p>In Spain, this is known as the &#8220;endogamy problem&#8221; (endogamy = marriage within the tribe or extended family).  It occurs because, as I understand it, university hiring committees usually include several prominent citizens from the local city, and these people will tend to favor applicants who are locals over those from other regions (or foreigners).  The result is that people who <i>aren&#8217;t</i> from that locality can sometimes have a harder time getting faculty or equivalent positions.</p>
<p>(This isn&#8217;t nepotism in the strict sense &#8212; the people being favored are not necessarily directly related to the hiring committee; they&#8217;re just &#8220;locals&#8221;.)</p>
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		<title>By: ike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39374</link>
		<dc:creator>ike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39374</guid>
		<description>There are a numer of places where nepotism plays a key role.  My vote for the most likely datasets to look at would be the initial pools of applicants to faculty postions vs. the ones who are put on the short list, vs. the ones who are actually hired.

Notable anecdotal stories of this process include faculty members who load the short list with obvious non-starters in order to make their favored candidate look better, as well as &quot;job listings&quot; that, after inquiry, turn out to be in-house promotions of junior members that have to be presented to the public as &quot;job searches&quot;.

Does this really produce the best scientific research teams, whether big or small? In other words, &quot;why is nepotism bad&quot;?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Nepotism is the showing of favoritism toward relatives and friends, based upon that relationship, rather than on an objective evaluation of ability or suitability. For instance, offering employment to a relative, despite the fact that there are others who are better qualified and willing to perform the job, would be considered nepotism. The word nepotism is from the Latin word &#039;nepos&#039;, meaning &quot;nephew&quot; or &quot;grandchild&quot;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In such situations, the candidate&#039;s &quot;parental lineage&quot; becomes a more important factor than the candidates actual abilities in terms of research and teaching.  The reasons such tendencies are unhealthy should be obvious to anyone who wants to maintain a high-quality research and teaching institution.

Right now, it should be noted, academics have a pretty cushy position - but imagine a situation in which external political considerations control all university activities - as was the case in Lysenko&#039;s Soviet science &quot;community&quot;, and as was the case at all the German scientific institutions during the 1930s and 40s.  The main external influence over science institutions in the U.S. today is the growth of secretive public-private relationships and the new emphasis on proprietary corporate research within all of the U.S. public universities.  Extrapolate the trends of the past two decades forward 20 years, and what do you get?

This is why people are calling for more openness and transparency in all aspects of academic life - but especially in hiring and funding decisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a numer of places where nepotism plays a key role.  My vote for the most likely datasets to look at would be the initial pools of applicants to faculty postions vs. the ones who are put on the short list, vs. the ones who are actually hired.</p>
<p>Notable anecdotal stories of this process include faculty members who load the short list with obvious non-starters in order to make their favored candidate look better, as well as &#8220;job listings&#8221; that, after inquiry, turn out to be in-house promotions of junior members that have to be presented to the public as &#8220;job searches&#8221;.</p>
<p>Does this really produce the best scientific research teams, whether big or small? In other words, &#8220;why is nepotism bad&#8221;?</p>
<blockquote><p>Nepotism is the showing of favoritism toward relatives and friends, based upon that relationship, rather than on an objective evaluation of ability or suitability. For instance, offering employment to a relative, despite the fact that there are others who are better qualified and willing to perform the job, would be considered nepotism. The word nepotism is from the Latin word &#8216;nepos&#8217;, meaning &#8220;nephew&#8221; or &#8220;grandchild&#8221;.</p></blockquote>
<p>In such situations, the candidate&#8217;s &#8220;parental lineage&#8221; becomes a more important factor than the candidates actual abilities in terms of research and teaching.  The reasons such tendencies are unhealthy should be obvious to anyone who wants to maintain a high-quality research and teaching institution.</p>
<p>Right now, it should be noted, academics have a pretty cushy position &#8211; but imagine a situation in which external political considerations control all university activities &#8211; as was the case in Lysenko&#8217;s Soviet science &#8220;community&#8221;, and as was the case at all the German scientific institutions during the 1930s and 40s.  The main external influence over science institutions in the U.S. today is the growth of secretive public-private relationships and the new emphasis on proprietary corporate research within all of the U.S. public universities.  Extrapolate the trends of the past two decades forward 20 years, and what do you get?</p>
<p>This is why people are calling for more openness and transparency in all aspects of academic life &#8211; but especially in hiring and funding decisions.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39373</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39373</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Hmm... looks like countries with higher fractions of women physicists also have higher fractions in engineering. I’d say your &quot;fairly obvious&quot; explanation isn’t.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Except that we weren&#039;t talking about undergraduate degrees, but rather the numbers further along in career progression.  The figures that you report reflect the higher priority of STEM subjects in some countries.  The more salient question is how these numbers translate into PhD students, postdocs and faculty positions in physics compared to engineering.  Clearly, the relatively small difference between the fraction of female undergraduates studying physics in the UK (21%) and Spain (27%) is not sufficient to explain the much larger differences further down the pipe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Hmm&#8230; looks like countries with higher fractions of women physicists also have higher fractions in engineering. I’d say your &#8220;fairly obvious&#8221; explanation isn’t.</p></blockquote>
<p>Except that we weren&#8217;t talking about undergraduate degrees, but rather the numbers further along in career progression.  The figures that you report reflect the higher priority of STEM subjects in some countries.  The more salient question is how these numbers translate into PhD students, postdocs and faculty positions in physics compared to engineering.  Clearly, the relatively small difference between the fraction of female undergraduates studying physics in the UK (21%) and Spain (27%) is not sufficient to explain the much larger differences further down the pipe.</p>
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		<title>By: Hiranya</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39372</link>
		<dc:creator>Hiranya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 06:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39372</guid>
		<description>#40 Peter, thank you - this was what I was trying to get at with my question above. This &quot;esteem&quot; correlation can&#039;t be true because of the much more equitable situation in the medical profession, which if anything is held in much higher esteem by the general population than either engineering or physics. Of course someone is going to trot out the old chestnut about &quot;women preferring caring professions&quot; but that&#039;s not the point for the argument in question, unless you are also positing that the men in the medical profession are nice guys who gave up the hotly competed-for slots in medical schools to women out of charity!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#40 Peter, thank you &#8211; this was what I was trying to get at with my question above. This &#8220;esteem&#8221; correlation can&#8217;t be true because of the much more equitable situation in the medical profession, which if anything is held in much higher esteem by the general population than either engineering or physics. Of course someone is going to trot out the old chestnut about &#8220;women preferring caring professions&#8221; but that&#8217;s not the point for the argument in question, unless you are also positing that the men in the medical profession are nice guys who gave up the hotly competed-for slots in medical schools to women out of charity!</p>
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		<title>By: Massimo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39371</link>
		<dc:creator>Massimo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:14:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39371</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;papers which so clearly set out to reach a specific conclusion [...] do not go any way toward demonstrating it. Indeed, [...] they achieve quite the opposite by allowing [...] to dismiss legitimate research by lumping it in with this kind of carefully engineered propaganda.&lt;/i&gt;

Precisely the conclusion at which I arrived after reading the paper. I really do not believe that her case is strong enough to make the claims that she makes, even if we accept all of her premises (some of which are dubious).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>papers which so clearly set out to reach a specific conclusion [...] do not go any way toward demonstrating it. Indeed, [...] they achieve quite the opposite by allowing [...] to dismiss legitimate research by lumping it in with this kind of carefully engineered propaganda.</i></p>
<p>Precisely the conclusion at which I arrived after reading the paper. I really do not believe that her case is strong enough to make the claims that she makes, even if we accept all of her premises (some of which are dubious).</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Erwin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/comment-page-1/#comment-39335</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Erwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/04/18/influence/#comment-39335</guid>
		<description>Mike M @ 23:
&lt;i&gt;As to why some countries do very much better in terms of numbers, sadly the answer is fairly obvious: gender equality in physics anti-correlates quite closely with the level of esteem in which the subject is held. My female friends in Spain and Italy have made this point very forcefully, by pointing to the gender inequalities in subjects like engineering that are held in high esteem in those countries.&lt;/i&gt;

Is this actually true?  (I should point out that I&#039;ve heard a somewhat similar argument from a female Turkish friend about the roles of physics and engineering in Turkey -- that is, Turkish men who might be interested in physics are encouraged to study engineering instead, on the grounds that they&#039;ll be the ones supporting a family and so need a better-paying career -- so I&#039;m inclined to take the argument seriously.  But I have this weird habit of wanting to look for actual evidence, so...)

Here are some numbers for the fraction of undergraduate physics degrees going to women in countries you&#039;ve mentioned, for 2004:
US: 21%
UK: 21%
Italy: 36% [*]
Spain: 27%

According to your argument, we should expect lower female fractions in engineering in Italy and Spain (where engineering has higher &quot;esteem&quot;), and higher fractions for the US and UK.

Fraction of undergraduate degrees going to women in engineering:
US: 21%
UK: 16%
Italy: 28.%
Spain: 31%

Hmm... looks like countries with higher fractions of women physicists &lt;i&gt;also&lt;/i&gt; have higher fractions in engineering.  I&#039;d say your &quot;fairly obvious&quot; explanation isn&#039;t.

(Data mostly from the NSF&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind08/c0/c0i.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Science and Engineering Indicators 2008&quot; report&lt;/a&gt;, plus a few other reports found here and there.)

[*] This is actually the number for 1998; I haven&#039;t been able to find any newer numbers for Italy.  Tentatively, I would assume that the 2004 value is, if anything, slightly higher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike M @ 23:<br />
<i>As to why some countries do very much better in terms of numbers, sadly the answer is fairly obvious: gender equality in physics anti-correlates quite closely with the level of esteem in which the subject is held. My female friends in Spain and Italy have made this point very forcefully, by pointing to the gender inequalities in subjects like engineering that are held in high esteem in those countries.</i></p>
<p>Is this actually true?  (I should point out that I&#8217;ve heard a somewhat similar argument from a female Turkish friend about the roles of physics and engineering in Turkey &#8212; that is, Turkish men who might be interested in physics are encouraged to study engineering instead, on the grounds that they&#8217;ll be the ones supporting a family and so need a better-paying career &#8212; so I&#8217;m inclined to take the argument seriously.  But I have this weird habit of wanting to look for actual evidence, so&#8230;)</p>
<p>Here are some numbers for the fraction of undergraduate physics degrees going to women in countries you&#8217;ve mentioned, for 2004:<br />
US: 21%<br />
UK: 21%<br />
Italy: 36% [*]<br />
Spain: 27%</p>
<p>According to your argument, we should expect lower female fractions in engineering in Italy and Spain (where engineering has higher &#8220;esteem&#8221;), and higher fractions for the US and UK.</p>
<p>Fraction of undergraduate degrees going to women in engineering:<br />
US: 21%<br />
UK: 16%<br />
Italy: 28.%<br />
Spain: 31%</p>
<p>Hmm&#8230; looks like countries with higher fractions of women physicists <i>also</i> have higher fractions in engineering.  I&#8217;d say your &#8220;fairly obvious&#8221; explanation isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>(Data mostly from the NSF&#8217;s <a href="http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind08/c0/c0i.htm" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Science and Engineering Indicators 2008&#8243; report</a>, plus a few other reports found here and there.)</p>
<p>[*] This is actually the number for 1998; I haven&#8217;t been able to find any newer numbers for Italy.  Tentatively, I would assume that the 2004 value is, if anything, slightly higher.</p>
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