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	<title>Comments on: Proposals and Framing</title>
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Julianne</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39684</link>
		<dc:creator>Julianne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 20:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39684</guid>
		<description>I also did not mean to imply that following my advice guaranteed success.  But, &lt;em&gt;failure&lt;/em&gt; to follow it guarantees that you &lt;em&gt;won't&lt;/em&gt; make it into the 15% region.  When review committees have to make those nearly impossible choices (as you just had to -- and as they say to returning vets, "thank you for your service"!), they're rarely going to go out on a limb vs funding something that seems like a sure thing.

And OUCH on "referee 1" = "Prof Joe Doe".  That kind of behavior just sucks ass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also did not mean to imply that following my advice guaranteed success.  But, <em>failure</em> to follow it guarantees that you <em>won&#8217;t</em> make it into the 15% region.  When review committees have to make those nearly impossible choices (as you just had to &#8212; and as they say to returning vets, &#8220;thank you for your service&#8221;!), they&#8217;re rarely going to go out on a limb vs funding something that seems like a sure thing.</p>
<p>And OUCH on &#8220;referee 1&#8243; = &#8220;Prof Joe Doe&#8221;.  That kind of behavior just sucks ass.</p>
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		<title>By: Steinn Sigurdsson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39685</link>
		<dc:creator>Steinn Sigurdsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 20:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39685</guid>
		<description>Er, I do have some experience on both side of the proposal game...

The post Julianne kindly linked to is very much intended to be tongue in cheek - that time of year, y'know.  But, as with most attempt at humour, there is also some truth to it.

For what it is worth, the comments I chose  are illustrative but not verbatim examples of some actual extremes. The translations are also not all that far off the mark...

The refereeing doesn't get to be unreasonable until you realise that "referee 1" was actually "Prof Joe Doe" in the second example.

There are agencies that are not the NSF where a 15% funding rate would be wonderfully high. And, yes, most good proposals can not be funded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Er, I do have some experience on both side of the proposal game&#8230;</p>
<p>The post Julianne kindly linked to is very much intended to be tongue in cheek - that time of year, y&#8217;know.  But, as with most attempt at humour, there is also some truth to it.</p>
<p>For what it is worth, the comments I chose  are illustrative but not verbatim examples of some actual extremes. The translations are also not all that far off the mark&#8230;</p>
<p>The refereeing doesn&#8217;t get to be unreasonable until you realise that &#8220;referee 1&#8243; was actually &#8220;Prof Joe Doe&#8221; in the second example.</p>
<p>There are agencies that are not the NSF where a 15% funding rate would be wonderfully high. And, yes, most good proposals can not be funded.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39679</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 04:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39679</guid>
		<description>Having recently served on an NSF review panel, it seems to me that both Julianne and Stein are pretty far off the mark in this discussion. They seem to think that these proposals would be funded, but for the reaction of some unreasonably hostile referee.

This is not the situation at all in any of the review panels that I've been on. It is invariably the case that there are many proposals that deserve funding that can't be funded because of the ~15% NSF funding rate. With such a small fraction of proposals to be funded, almost any tiny error in a proposal will get it rejected. Plus, many good proposals with no errors still won't get funded because the acceptance rate is so low. Basically, your proposal has to be judged to be really exceptional to get funded, and many very good proposals are rejected without anyone necessarily being shafted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having recently served on an NSF review panel, it seems to me that both Julianne and Stein are pretty far off the mark in this discussion. They seem to think that these proposals would be funded, but for the reaction of some unreasonably hostile referee.</p>
<p>This is not the situation at all in any of the review panels that I&#8217;ve been on. It is invariably the case that there are many proposals that deserve funding that can&#8217;t be funded because of the ~15% NSF funding rate. With such a small fraction of proposals to be funded, almost any tiny error in a proposal will get it rejected. Plus, many good proposals with no errors still won&#8217;t get funded because the acceptance rate is so low. Basically, your proposal has to be judged to be really exceptional to get funded, and many very good proposals are rejected without anyone necessarily being shafted.</p>
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		<title>By: Julianne</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39683</link>
		<dc:creator>Julianne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 14:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39683</guid>
		<description>John -- agreed completely.  But, you have to do more than just toss in a few cites.  There are lots of silly papers in the literature, and a non-expert (but generally informed) referee will not necessarily see the citation and get "Oh yeah!  Hod 2007!  That changes everything".

And amused -- carry on with the discussion as you wish!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John &#8212; agreed completely.  But, you have to do more than just toss in a few cites.  There are lots of silly papers in the literature, and a non-expert (but generally informed) referee will not necessarily see the citation and get &#8220;Oh yeah!  Hod 2007!  That changes everything&#8221;.</p>
<p>And amused &#8212; carry on with the discussion as you wish!</p>
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		<title>By: John R Ramsden</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39682</link>
		<dc:creator>John R Ramsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 12:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39682</guid>
		<description>I guess the frame-breaking ammo needn't be "home made" though. Might it not be enough to point out some recent related work by others which had the same effect?

For example, a black hole cosmology proposal related, or relatable, to quasinormal modes could mention how Shahar Hod's work has (AIUI) overturned earlier studies concluding that these always evolve to the same form.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess the frame-breaking ammo needn&#8217;t be &#8220;home made&#8221; though. Might it not be enough to point out some recent related work by others which had the same effect?</p>
<p>For example, a black hole cosmology proposal related, or relatable, to quasinormal modes could mention how Shahar Hod&#8217;s work has (AIUI) overturned earlier studies concluding that these always evolve to the same form.</p>
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		<title>By: amused</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39681</link>
		<dc:creator>amused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 07:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39681</guid>
		<description>I disagree a bit with some of what has been said above, but also feel a bit guilty for taking the discussion in a different direction from what Julianne probably intended (sorry, couldn't resist). So, to avoid hijacking the thread, I'll wait for a more on-topic occasion to say more about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree a bit with some of what has been said above, but also feel a bit guilty for taking the discussion in a different direction from what Julianne probably intended (sorry, couldn&#8217;t resist). So, to avoid hijacking the thread, I&#8217;ll wait for a more on-topic occasion to say more about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39680</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 01:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39680</guid>
		<description>Working as a postdoc on a somebody's project isn't necessarily bad.  It can mean that you get access to resources that you would never be able to attract as a young non-established independent postdoc.  One could argue that PIs with resources should attract the independent postdocs, and this happens a little, but the agencies that are allocating the resources (telescope time, laboratories money to build instrumentation, theory centers with supercomputers, whatever) have an interest in allocating money to PIs to hire good people.  It does no good to cut metal for a fancy facility if there's not people to help build it and to use it.

Postdocing does not equal serfdom.  When it does, this is a problem with either the standards of treatment in the field (for example, biology postdocs have less independence than astronomy postdocs) or the behavior of individual PIs.  It is difficult to change people's behavior and there are relatively few consequences to people who behave badly though.  I fantasize that granting agencies should somehow compile and anonymize followup interviews for grad students and postdocs that they have paid for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Working as a postdoc on a somebody&#8217;s project isn&#8217;t necessarily bad.  It can mean that you get access to resources that you would never be able to attract as a young non-established independent postdoc.  One could argue that PIs with resources should attract the independent postdocs, and this happens a little, but the agencies that are allocating the resources (telescope time, laboratories money to build instrumentation, theory centers with supercomputers, whatever) have an interest in allocating money to PIs to hire good people.  It does no good to cut metal for a fancy facility if there&#8217;s not people to help build it and to use it.</p>
<p>Postdocing does not equal serfdom.  When it does, this is a problem with either the standards of treatment in the field (for example, biology postdocs have less independence than astronomy postdocs) or the behavior of individual PIs.  It is difficult to change people&#8217;s behavior and there are relatively few consequences to people who behave badly though.  I fantasize that granting agencies should somehow compile and anonymize followup interviews for grad students and postdocs that they have paid for.</p>
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		<title>By: Lab Lemming</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39691</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 23:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39691</guid>
		<description>"Typically they require 50-80% time commitments"

translation: 12 to 19.2 hours a day, 7 days a week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Typically they require 50-80% time commitments&#8221;</p>
<p>translation: 12 to 19.2 hours a day, 7 days a week.</p>
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		<title>By: Steinn Sigurdsson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39690</link>
		<dc:creator>Steinn Sigurdsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 14:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39690</guid>
		<description>Independent postdoctoral fellowships are a good thing, and lead to good science.
Having more of independent postdocs would also be good.

But, the mistake is thinking that all science funding agencies are focused on curiousity driven blue sky science, most are not.
In particular the major funding agencies for the physical sciences are mission driven to a large extent. This generally implies there are sequences of tasks that need to be carried out by people with particular expertise - for example there may be a need to build some equipment, or to analyse a particular data set, or to model a particular scenario, or to attempt to calculate a known unknown.

Often such tasks are beyond the capabilities of graduate students, at least on the time scale the problem is to be done on, the expectation is that the research requires someone with a PhD.  Arguably the faculty involved should do some of these tasks themselves, rather than hire postdocs to do so, but often the labour involved in doing the task on the time scale required is more than is available from the faculty PI - some things require a 50-100% time committment to be done in a timely manner. (Buying out faculty from teaching and service duties is possible but discouraged in many cases and cost-ineffective in other cases).

So... there are grants for postdocs to work on specific pre-defined tasks.
Typically they require 50-80% time commitments, notionally, the rest of the time being available for exploratory independent research.

We can argue about whether this is a good system, but right now that is the system the US uses. It is relatively cost effective and flexible,  it is arguably damaging in the long run.
In the short run, faculty apply for grants to hire postdocs, and soak up a large part of the supply of recent PhDs in the process.
There are worse things than being a postdoc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Independent postdoctoral fellowships are a good thing, and lead to good science.<br />
Having more of independent postdocs would also be good.</p>
<p>But, the mistake is thinking that all science funding agencies are focused on curiousity driven blue sky science, most are not.<br />
In particular the major funding agencies for the physical sciences are mission driven to a large extent. This generally implies there are sequences of tasks that need to be carried out by people with particular expertise - for example there may be a need to build some equipment, or to analyse a particular data set, or to model a particular scenario, or to attempt to calculate a known unknown.</p>
<p>Often such tasks are beyond the capabilities of graduate students, at least on the time scale the problem is to be done on, the expectation is that the research requires someone with a PhD.  Arguably the faculty involved should do some of these tasks themselves, rather than hire postdocs to do so, but often the labour involved in doing the task on the time scale required is more than is available from the faculty PI - some things require a 50-100% time committment to be done in a timely manner. (Buying out faculty from teaching and service duties is possible but discouraged in many cases and cost-ineffective in other cases).</p>
<p>So&#8230; there are grants for postdocs to work on specific pre-defined tasks.<br />
Typically they require 50-80% time commitments, notionally, the rest of the time being available for exploratory independent research.</p>
<p>We can argue about whether this is a good system, but right now that is the system the US uses. It is relatively cost effective and flexible,  it is arguably damaging in the long run.<br />
In the short run, faculty apply for grants to hire postdocs, and soak up a large part of the supply of recent PhDs in the process.<br />
There are worse things than being a postdoc.</p>
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		<title>By: Count Iblis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39689</link>
		<dc:creator>Count Iblis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 14:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/05/05/proposals-and-framing/#comment-39689</guid>
		<description>Why not apply for a grant on some other topic and use the money to do the research you want to do? This is what we usually do in theoretical physics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not apply for a grant on some other topic and use the money to do the research you want to do? This is what we usually do in theoretical physics.</p>
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