The earth is flat and is 6000 years old.
The sun, which is 1/2 the size of the earth orbits in a perfect circle around the earth.
The moon which is 1/2 the size of the sun orbits the sun and the earth.

Oh, yeah and in the end of days a giant seven headed snake will come out of noware and brand 666 on everyones head!

Watch out for Poes Law!

Thanks again.

“I’m a Platonist — a follower of Plato — who believes that one didn’t invent these sorts of things, that one discovers them. In a sense, all these mathematical facts are right there waiting to be discovered.”Harold Scott Macdonald (H. S. M.) Coxeter

Moving to polytopes or allotrope seem to have values in science? Buckminister Fuller and Richard Smalley in terms of allotrope.

I was looking at Sylvestor surfaces and the Clebsch diagram. Cayley too. These configurations to me were about “surfaces,” and if we were to allot a progression to the “projective geometries” here in relation to higher dimensional thinking, “as the polytope[E8]“(where Coxeter[I meant to apologize for misspelling earlier] drew us to abstraction to the see “higher dimensional relations” toward Plato’s light.)

As the furthest extent of the Conjecture , how shall we place the dynamics of Sylvestor surfaces and B Fields in relation to the timeline of these geometries? Historically this would seem in order, but under the advancement of thinking in theoretics does it serve a purpose? Going beyond “planck length” what is a person to do?

Thanks for the clarifications on Lagrange points. This is how I see the WMAP.

Diagram of the Lagrange Point gravitational forces associated with the Sun-Earth system. WMAP orbits around L2, which is about 1.5 million km from the Earth. Lagrange Points are positions in space where the gravitational forces of a two body system like the Sun and the Earth produce enhanced regions of attraction and repulsion. The forces at L2 tend to keep WMAP aligned on the Sun-Earth axis, but requires course correction to keep the spacecraft from moving toward or away from the Earth.

Such concentration in the view of Sean’s group of the total WMAP while finding such a concentration would be revealing would it not of this geometrical instance in relation to gravitational gathering or views of the bulk tendency? Another example to show this fascinating elevation to non-euclidean, gravitational lensing, could be seen in this same light.

Such mapping would be important to the context of “seeing in the whole universe.”

I am currently trying to learn to understand the Poincare Conjecture and the lessons in this are amazing to me.
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… as I have detailed them in “satellite travel above” and in terms of Lagrangian points
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The Poincare homology sphere is related to his conjecture. Yet the homology sphere is a sphere with the rotational group SO(3) “modulo” a discrete set of rotations which describe a polytope or polyhedra. The homology sphere is a boundary of a region of four dimensions with a quaterionic structure. If the four manifold is a 4-sphere then the 3-homology sphere bounds both of then and there is then a quaternionic structure in the whole 4-space. At the time Poincare worked on these matter, in the late 19th century, quaterions were a “hot item.” Indeed Maxwell originally formulated his EM equations according to quaterions.

Lagrange points are regions where the Newtonian gravitational forces from two main bodies and centripetal force on a third “test mass” cancel out. For the Earth and sun alone these are fixed points. The L_1, L_2 and L_3 points have potential functions (in the accelerated frame) which are saddle point configurations, and are thus not stable, but quasistable. Another problem is that there is a perturbation due to the moon, so the Lagrange points are not fixed points, but wobble around in Lissajous orbit.

So to get there is tricky. The craft is placed in a highly elliptical orbit that approaches the Lagrange point. The RTG on the craft then after 3 passes nudges the craft into the Lagrange points. Also, since the Lagrange point is a saddle potential one needs to perform station keeping to maintain a “trim” on the orbit. This requires occassional rocket burns. This will continue until Sept 2009, after which WMAP will go silent and become “lost in space” as space junk. The Planck spacecraft will be launched later this year and will provide better data, including measurements of B-mode polarizations.

Astro-navigation is a bit like golf, you have a certain par for a mission and the objective is to get the ball in the hole, craft to its orbit, libration point, planet etc.

Lawrence B. Crowell

Recent observations and analysis by Benjamin Wandelt indicate (just below the level where they announce “detection” in the forthcoming Phys Rev Letters but instead say “evidence for”) “non-gaussianity” in the CMB.

This earlier paper by Yadav and Wandelt claims ‘detection’:

* Amit P. S. Yadav and Benjamin D. Wandelt, Detection of primordial non-Gaussianity (fNL) in the WMAP 3-year data at above 99.5% confidence.

Their abstract finishes with: “We conclude that the WMAP 3-year data disfavors canonical single field slow-roll inflation.”

This may be the start of the collapse of Alan Guth’s “inflation” – the unifying principle of Cosmology since Big Bang.

What, Dr. Sean Carroll, should we focus on in relating your theories and this data interpretation?

Ah. Sorry, I misinterpreted your question to mean are there better minds (on other blogs or forums for example) than the blog authors here!

I must say it did seem a somewhat implausible thing to ask, and perhaps I should have read between the lines; but it just shows how easily a “discursive” writing style (using as nice a word as possible) can be misunderstood

Where is Zero point entropy? Does it exist in any positions in our universe that would be considered the place where such beginning and ends make then self known?

What would be the physics of this place?

I am thinking in my layman mind that it is contained in the “moment of the collision process” where we are experimentally moving to words a “supersymmetrical view.” Navier Stokes equations are then considered and the viscosity then provides for this opening to “time reversal and such?”

Of course I am all over the map:) But to me such a concentration of of gravity in my views of the universe belong to the idea that a gravity perspective is now contained in the “bulk view.”

I am currently trying to learn to understand the Poincare Conjecture and the lessons in this are amazing to me. Going to a universe in a three manifold description I made the link when it referred “the set in which every point that belongs to a region could be mapped to every point in the box or clear Aquarium.”

That such a logic leading from Euclid’s element could have ever gotten to something so abstract as seeing “routes in space” as I have detailed them in “satellite travel above” and in terms of Lagrangian points Is an amazing thing for me to grasp, as much, “the departure from the fifth postulate, to non-euclidean geometries. For a layman like me, this is exciting way to think.

A bulk perspective now instead of “an anisotropy of gravitons?” Well my views are suppose to be telling when I write the way I do and I am glad some people do get them, or bother to ask.

Thank you Lawrence for the courtesy and helpful information.

John Ramsden,

I meant it John, when I said there are better minds then mine here because I am truly at a disadvantage and it is to mean nothing more then, “I have a lot of work to do to catch up sometimes.” Some will be able to read more into what I am saying then others.

It’s true, I am enamoured with Plato and everything about him.:) But yes, I know he’s dead physically, but not in, what remains of him. Those who write about him. Those who speak of the Solids.

Even people like Coexeter who represent a new stage in my view of taking geometries to amazing new spaces or Banchoff. Garret Lisi model and E8 complexity are attempts, are they not of modelling of our universe? Or maybe even Tegmarks fascination?

Anyway, back to the post of Sean’s here.

The “landscape “is a dirty word now? So too, is Witten ready to discard it?
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String theory might be said to be too unconstrained. LQG is too constrained. To me these things are really math-methods more than being theories in a proper sense. They both have interesting things to say, but it is best not be believe either — belief is for religion and politics.

you wrote:

how far had Mandelstam taken the mathematical of a “genus three construct?”
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I could fill this with a lengthy essay, but I will keep this short. I think the issue is with the moduli of gravity or quantum gravity/cosmology. In particular how does one get a matching conditions on the moduli space for the instanton state “pre-tunneling state” and the tunneling state. Mandelbrot geometry in spacetime has some interesting issues with the separability of moduli. My suggestion of the Poincare homology sphere is in part meant to address this issue.

Beyond mathematics there are also physical issues, which are really more important. In particular we need to discard what might be called excess baggage. Physically this amounts in part to a generalization of the equivalence principle where non-inertial and inertial frames are treated on the same basis.

These is a possible related issuewith Shean’s paper. This data might be related to gravitons stretched out an imprinted on the post inflationary universe. In the paper:

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0806/0806.0665v2.pdf

there appears noise in the LIGO detectors which ound like the gravitational analogue of the CMB. Maybe we are getting signals from the decoupling of gravity & gauge fields analogous to the deionization phase of the universe about 380,000 years after the big bang. This might be data from the universe from within some 10^10 Planck times into the “shebang.” Maybe in time we will get data on the full spectrum, but all so the anistoropic distribution. That will tell us something about the scaling of the universe at large. This gravity wave noise might then be from the universe at a distance so that z ~= lambda/lambda_0 ~= 10^{40}! That is rather impressive given that the most distant galaxies have z ~ 7 and the CMB is z ~ 1000.

So are we getting some data which is related to an anisotropy of gravitons? We don’t know, but we can be certain that the future holds many surprises.

Lawrence B. Crowell

Also, with bloggers here putting so much time and effort into explaining their ideas and those of fellow experts, for you to ask “As a layman how can I assess and give anything of value here, while there are better minds at work?” sounds not only rude but foolish.

How can you expect to find an infallible oracle anywhere, when everyone knows there’s no universal agreement on speculative models and how best to interpret and explain new observations?

Oh, and calling yourself “Plato” – Do us a favour!

The “landscape “is a dirty word now? So too, is Witten ready to discard it?

I have yet to read Sean’s and their group effort work, but to go by the news reports that are selective released through his blog here.:) Oh, and the “other news source” he had identified.

So we are getting straight from the….. and as a layman how can I assess and give anything of value here, while there are better minds at work?

So let’s see.

The group is using a phenomenological approach to the theory they are expounding? So in this case, we know the hesitancy that censorship “can elevate” or “distort a view” that is vacuous in it’s explanation and reveal a distast to multiverse hypothesis and such, how so then to think that such “reverse arrow of time” can be of help to this current view? It is progressive I must admit from my perspective.

So we have a universe, a WMAP to look at, and to this extent(genus relations), how far had Mandelstam taken the mathematical of a “genus three construct?”

This then would be a layman mistake on my part if such an associative value of the universe can be made in relation to the Genus figure, yet, I would not have all my facts in place from my inexperience?

It’s probably not what you were thinking about, but COBE, WMAP’s predecessor, shows similar structures, although at lower significance because of its much lower signal-to-noise. But I don’t know about any other full-sky maps which are deep enough to be relevant to this issue, really. But of course, even limited sky data sets such as 2dF or quasar catalogs may eventually be interesting.

holo:

I’m afraid that WMAP’s polarization maps are too noisy to be useful for this, really. They barely have enough signal-to-noise to constrain a very few full-sky multipoles at the very largest scales, and not much more than that. They are useful for foreground studies, though, but for proper full-sky CMB polarization information, we’ll just have to wait for Planck..

As to the image, “is what it is “and then to think “genus figures could be allocated to the description of the universe” may actually be then be held relevant?

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Topology might indeed play a role here. The question is what topology, and what physics does it imply?

Lawrence B. Crowell

WMAP has produced a new, more detailed picture of the infant universe. Colors indicate “warmer” (red) and “cooler” (blue) spots. The white bars show the “polarization” direction of the oldest light. This new information helps to pinpoint when the first stars formed and provides new clues about events that transpired in the first trillionth of a second of the universe.

Might it then not be as if “holes exist in the universe” with which such calculations made in terms of Lagrangian’s that allow satellites to traverse this universe given space in the simplest energy configuration. So over all, such polarizations would ultimately show an outcome which does rest in the valley, as that WMAP. It reminded me of Wayne Hu’s polarization map.

B-modes retain their special nature as manifest in the fact that they can possess a handedness that distinguishes left from right. For example here are two polarization fields with the same structure but in the E-mode on the left and the B-mode on the right:

I forgot to include that the breaking up of the 120 to the 24-cell, the breaking of Cl(8) to the smaller exceptional group F_4, might physically be associated with the transition of the universe from a quantum wave functional over all (or many) possible metric configurations to a classical or semi-classical spacetime.

Tim Eby on Jun 9th, 2008 at 5:14 pm WROTE:

However, if the total energy of the universe is zero at every instant, it cannot emit energy into its environment, and information cannot be lost and entropy cannot be increasing!

I think the existence of entropy might not be due to the outright destruction of information, but rather its concealment. In fact I will use the term encryption, where quantum information is transformed in ways that an observer who lack the appropriate “key” is unable to cypher. In our physics classes we coarse grain things or do “sums over states” and other things which are a way of burying away things we can’t tractably work with.

Lawrence B. Crowell