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	<title>Comments on: Reprieve for Fermilab; Whither ITER?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: gopher65</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-47636</link>
		<dc:creator>gopher65</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-47636</guid>
		<description>abelian: I know someone who did that. Bought a van.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>abelian: I know someone who did that. Bought a van.</p>
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		<title>By: abelian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41173</link>
		<dc:creator>abelian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41173</guid>
		<description>&quot;With the money spend on Iraq one could build an ITER every 6 weeks or so&quot;

That is equivalent to saying, &quot; I will stop smoking, save all that money and buy a car.&quot; Theoretically possible, but in real life it never happens</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;With the money spend on Iraq one could build an ITER every 6 weeks or so&#8221;</p>
<p>That is equivalent to saying, &#8221; I will stop smoking, save all that money and buy a car.&#8221; Theoretically possible, but in real life it never happens</p>
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		<title>By: Elliot</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41162</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41162</guid>
		<description>So here is a (semi)-moral question to consider. You are a member of congress, maybe even representing IL or the district that encompasses Fermilab. You oppose the war but want the money back for the lab. How do you vote?

This is an example to me of a dysfunctional government when items are tied together in a package rather than considered individually.

I don&#039;t know the right answer but would have a difficult time with this if I were in that situation.

e.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So here is a (semi)-moral question to consider. You are a member of congress, maybe even representing IL or the district that encompasses Fermilab. You oppose the war but want the money back for the lab. How do you vote?</p>
<p>This is an example to me of a dysfunctional government when items are tied together in a package rather than considered individually.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the right answer but would have a difficult time with this if I were in that situation.</p>
<p>e.</p>
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		<title>By: Fermi-Walker Public Transport</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41161</link>
		<dc:creator>Fermi-Walker Public Transport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41161</guid>
		<description>With regards to the concerns about other countries seeing the U.S. as a reliable partner in projects, that horse has long left the barn. Think of the unilateral decision made about closing down the space station without informing its partners. I am not saying whether the decision was good or bad, just that it was unilateral.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regards to the concerns about other countries seeing the U.S. as a reliable partner in projects, that horse has long left the barn. Think of the unilateral decision made about closing down the space station without informing its partners. I am not saying whether the decision was good or bad, just that it was unilateral.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Schofield</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41172</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Schofield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41172</guid>
		<description>To an extent, those neutrons are used to produce new fuel.

Tritium is produced through the forced fission of lithium when bombarded by neutrons. By surrounding the reactor with a layer of lithium, you can produce new tritium using the apparent waste products of the reaction.

Similarly, that energy that is removed from the reactor makes the plasma far easier to handle. If all the energy from the reaction had to be removed by conduction/transport alone then there would be no material I know of to stand up to the requirements.

The current pressing problems are materials development (which is a second, equally massive project going alongside ITER) and plasma stability. There are a number of issues that need to be resolved before fusion could possibly be sustained beyond a few seconds, but these things are being worked on and studied in current reactors.

So long as we can be sure that ITER won&#039;t tear itself apart things should be good to go once it is built.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To an extent, those neutrons are used to produce new fuel.</p>
<p>Tritium is produced through the forced fission of lithium when bombarded by neutrons. By surrounding the reactor with a layer of lithium, you can produce new tritium using the apparent waste products of the reaction.</p>
<p>Similarly, that energy that is removed from the reactor makes the plasma far easier to handle. If all the energy from the reaction had to be removed by conduction/transport alone then there would be no material I know of to stand up to the requirements.</p>
<p>The current pressing problems are materials development (which is a second, equally massive project going alongside ITER) and plasma stability. There are a number of issues that need to be resolved before fusion could possibly be sustained beyond a few seconds, but these things are being worked on and studied in current reactors.</p>
<p>So long as we can be sure that ITER won&#8217;t tear itself apart things should be good to go once it is built.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41171</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 05:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41171</guid>
		<description>In reply to Lawrence,

Most of the energy goes into a neutral particle which would end up heating water to produce steam to run a turbine, which is the overall idea of a fusion reactor.  Still, a significant amount of the energy produced in the fusion reaction results in a 3.5MeV alpha particle which deposits it&#039;s energy back into the plasma, resulting in a self-sustaining burning plasma.  Ideally, a plasma which exists for month-long shots, all the time producing 14 MeV neutrons (whose energy is used to power turbines) while only using D-T fuel pellets is certainly a reasonable energy source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to Lawrence,</p>
<p>Most of the energy goes into a neutral particle which would end up heating water to produce steam to run a turbine, which is the overall idea of a fusion reactor.  Still, a significant amount of the energy produced in the fusion reaction results in a 3.5MeV alpha particle which deposits it&#8217;s energy back into the plasma, resulting in a self-sustaining burning plasma.  Ideally, a plasma which exists for month-long shots, all the time producing 14 MeV neutrons (whose energy is used to power turbines) while only using D-T fuel pellets is certainly a reasonable energy source.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellipsis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41170</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellipsis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41170</guid>
		<description>Flip -- after your 5 billion dollar gift to FNAL, I&#039;m confident things will work out just fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flip &#8212; after your 5 billion dollar gift to FNAL, I&#8217;m confident things will work out just fine.</p>
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		<title>By: Flip</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41169</link>
		<dc:creator>Flip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41169</guid>
		<description>Hello --- is there a danger that that America&#039;s failure to live up to its ITER funding obligations will end up hurting Fermilab&#039;s chances of landing the ILC?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello &#8212; is there a danger that that America&#8217;s failure to live up to its ITER funding obligations will end up hurting Fermilab&#8217;s chances of landing the ILC?</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41166</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41166</guid>
		<description>I meant to say &quot;off&quot; the critical condition list.

LC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant to say &#8220;off&#8221; the critical condition list.</p>
<p>LC</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41165</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41165</guid>
		<description>Fusion research, including the ITER, I find problematic.  The traditional D-T fusion results in about 80% of its energy in a neutron.  This energy is effectively lost, for the neutral particle is hard to &quot;catch.&quot;  This has always struck me as a huge fly in the ointment with the whole program.  It strikes me as more energetically favorable to do

p + Li_7 --- *Be_8 --- 2He_4, * = unstable,

which involves a beam of protons on lithium in some state, such as a solid foil that the beam scans.  I am aware of some problems with this, but at least all the energy is in charged alpha particles.

At any rate it looks as if HEP is critical condition list.

Lawrence B. Crowell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fusion research, including the ITER, I find problematic.  The traditional D-T fusion results in about 80% of its energy in a neutron.  This energy is effectively lost, for the neutral particle is hard to &#8220;catch.&#8221;  This has always struck me as a huge fly in the ointment with the whole program.  It strikes me as more energetically favorable to do</p>
<p>p + Li_7 &#8212; *Be_8 &#8212; 2He_4, * = unstable,</p>
<p>which involves a beam of protons on lithium in some state, such as a solid foil that the beam scans.  I am aware of some problems with this, but at least all the energy is in charged alpha particles.</p>
<p>At any rate it looks as if HEP is critical condition list.</p>
<p>Lawrence B. Crowell</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41158</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41158</guid>
		<description>Fixed ... in Firefox there was no hyperlink.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fixed &#8230; in Firefox there was no hyperlink.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris W.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41167</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41167</guid>
		<description>Seeing a hyperlink whose text consists of 4 full paragraphs gives me a headache, and offends my anal-retentive web page editing sensibilities. Would somebody mind fixing this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing a hyperlink whose text consists of 4 full paragraphs gives me a headache, and offends my anal-retentive web page editing sensibilities. Would somebody mind fixing this?</p>
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		<title>By: Count Iblis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41168</link>
		<dc:creator>Count Iblis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41168</guid>
		<description>The ITER project has suffered a lot of delays due to political tensions.

ITER was postponed, believe it or not, &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3336701.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;because of the Iraq war:&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;The US has been against the French option because of France&#039;s opposition to the US-led invasion of Iraq.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

With the money spend on Iraq one could build an ITER every 6 weeks or so  :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ITER project has suffered a lot of delays due to political tensions.</p>
<p>ITER was postponed, believe it or not, <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3336701.stm" rel="nofollow">because of the Iraq war:</a></p>
<blockquote><p>The US has been against the French option because of France&#8217;s opposition to the US-led invasion of Iraq.</p></blockquote>
<p>With the money spend on Iraq one could build an ITER every 6 weeks or so  <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: JoAnne</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41157</link>
		<dc:creator>JoAnne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41157</guid>
		<description>The additional HEP DOE funding is also supposed to restore the 125 lay-offs that ocurred at SLAC due to the omnibus bill.  I&#039;m not sure how this is or can actually happen as these folks are already gone and hopefully have found gainful employment elsewhere.  Fermilab was not the only lab to be hit...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The additional HEP DOE funding is also supposed to restore the 125 lay-offs that ocurred at SLAC due to the omnibus bill.  I&#8217;m not sure how this is or can actually happen as these folks are already gone and hopefully have found gainful employment elsewhere.  Fermilab was not the only lab to be hit&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41160</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41160</guid>
		<description>Today, the director of PPPL (Princeton Plasma Physics Lab) sent out an email mentioning the $62.5 million as going to the DOE Office of Science, saying he thought some of it would be used towards our ITER commitments.  I think the bill you&#039;re referring to didn&#039;t specifically give the money to High Energy Physics but rather DOE-funded science in general, with the specific goal of holding onto personnel.

Also, apparently the budget for FY2009 should see a $200 million dollar increase in funding to US Fusion research, covering the ITER costs as well as some extra.  This also includes ~$9 million to be used to clean up the NCSX (http://ncsx.pppl.gov//index.html) project which was recently cancelled.  Hopefully more funding will come in the future and we can finish the project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Today, the director of PPPL (Princeton Plasma Physics Lab) sent out an email mentioning the $62.5 million as going to the DOE Office of Science, saying he thought some of it would be used towards our ITER commitments.  I think the bill you&#8217;re referring to didn&#8217;t specifically give the money to High Energy Physics but rather DOE-funded science in general, with the specific goal of holding onto personnel.</p>
<p>Also, apparently the budget for FY2009 should see a $200 million dollar increase in funding to US Fusion research, covering the ITER costs as well as some extra.  This also includes ~$9 million to be used to clean up the NCSX (<a href="http://ncsx.pppl.gov//index.html" rel="nofollow">http://ncsx.pppl.gov//index.html</a>) project which was recently cancelled.  Hopefully more funding will come in the future and we can finish the project.</p>
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		<title>By: Sili</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41164</link>
		<dc:creator>Sili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41164</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to here more about the sensibilty of ITER. I seem to see a lot of suggestions that the engineering is just too hard for it to ever break even.


62.5M/162G=0.4‰

Excuse me while I go weep in my beer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to here more about the sensibilty of ITER. I seem to see a lot of suggestions that the engineering is just too hard for it to ever break even.</p>
<p>62.5M/162G=0.4‰</p>
<p>Excuse me while I go weep in my beer.</p>
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		<title>By: JerseyBoy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41159</link>
		<dc:creator>JerseyBoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41159</guid>
		<description>In talking with US fusion researchers, I seem to hear the opposite.  A few different people have told me that the ITER design wasn&#039;t the best use of money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In talking with US fusion researchers, I seem to hear the opposite.  A few different people have told me that the ITER design wasn&#8217;t the best use of money.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/comment-page-1/#comment-41163</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/02/reprieve-for-fermilab-whither-iter/#comment-41163</guid>
		<description>Great news for Fermilab, obviously.  I predict a LEP-like situation, where the Tevatron has a tantalizing 2.9-sigma result just as it is shut down...

Too bad about ITER, which seems like &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a great project&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great news for Fermilab, obviously.  I predict a LEP-like situation, where the Tevatron has a tantalizing 2.9-sigma result just as it is shut down&#8230;</p>
<p>Too bad about ITER, which seems like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER" rel="nofollow">a great project</a>.</p>
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