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	<title>Comments on: Spontaneous Social Symmetry Breaking</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41965</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 06:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41965</guid>
		<description>Or just build bigger women&#039;s restrooms. I don&#039;t think same-sex bathrooms would ever fly (although, I have no clue why they gender-specify single-occupancy bathrooms... ). Biologically, though, women take longer to use the restroom (even if you subtract makeup fixing, etc), so larger restrooms for women would allow us the same &lt;strong&gt;opportunity&lt;/strong&gt; to use the restroom without wasting so much time. Am I right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or just build bigger women&#8217;s restrooms. I don&#8217;t think same-sex bathrooms would ever fly (although, I have no clue why they gender-specify single-occupancy bathrooms&#8230; ). Biologically, though, women take longer to use the restroom (even if you subtract makeup fixing, etc), so larger restrooms for women would allow us the same <strong>opportunity</strong> to use the restroom without wasting so much time. Am I right?</p>
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		<title>By: Eleanor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41964</link>
		<dc:creator>Eleanor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41964</guid>
		<description>In the interest of sexual equality, we must a) install urinals in all ladies restrooms, or, b) eliminate sexually separated restrooms. /snark

Why not b? Or a combination of a and b? One room for everyone, all facilities, including urinals (if you can&#039;t survive without them), in cubicles. It drives me nuts to stand in a queue for the ladies&#039; room whilst knowing there are probably several loos going unused in the men&#039;s. And if I haven&#039;t seen anyone go in after a couple of minutes, I sometimes use the mens&#039; :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the interest of sexual equality, we must a) install urinals in all ladies restrooms, or, b) eliminate sexually separated restrooms. /snark</p>
<p>Why not b? Or a combination of a and b? One room for everyone, all facilities, including urinals (if you can&#8217;t survive without them), in cubicles. It drives me nuts to stand in a queue for the ladies&#8217; room whilst knowing there are probably several loos going unused in the men&#8217;s. And if I haven&#8217;t seen anyone go in after a couple of minutes, I sometimes use the mens&#8217; <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: collin237</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41929</link>
		<dc:creator>collin237</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 05:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41929</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;For some time I hoped the same might be true of the gauge principle, which similarly suffers from an abundance of confusing explanations,&lt;/blockquote&gt;

How about politics? An unphysical degree of freedom like &quot;how well is the surge in Iraq working&quot;, set to different values in the Obama gauge, the McCain gauge, and the Bush gauge.

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>For some time I hoped the same might be true of the gauge principle, which similarly suffers from an abundance of confusing explanations,</p></blockquote>
<p>How about politics? An unphysical degree of freedom like &#8220;how well is the surge in Iraq working&#8221;, set to different values in the Obama gauge, the McCain gauge, and the Bush gauge.<br />
 <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: John Knight</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41963</link>
		<dc:creator>John Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41963</guid>
		<description>Lawrence Summers, then the president of Harvard, got in trouble a few years back by saying that of the three principal explanations for the low proportion of women in doctorate-level math &amp; sciences, discrimination was probably the least important.

I agree.

One reason to be skeptical of using &quot;discrimination&quot; as an explanation is that it so often fails on closer examination, at least in the US &amp; similar societies.  For example, a decade ago it was popular to accuse banks &amp; mortgage lenders of discrimination because they turned down black &amp; Hispanic mortgage applicants more often than white applicants.  This claim was repeated long after careful observers had noted that &lt;I&gt;white&lt;/I&gt; applicants were turned down more often than &lt;I&gt;Asian&lt;/I&gt; applicants.  Where discrimination is involved, the truth is no defense.

Additionally, it was pointed out that the mortgage default rate was higher for blacks than for whites.  This suggests that more high-risk loans were made to blacks than to whites – the very opposite of discrimination.

(What a difference a decade makes.  Back then banks were accused of discrimination because they didn’t lend to high-risk applicants.  Now they are accused of &quot;predatory&quot; lending because they did.  The term &quot;predatory&quot; is, to put it mildly, not well defined.)

Numerous other examples can be found in labor markets.  For example, it is often claimed that women make 77% as men for the same work.  Actually, no.

The basis for this claim is that the median income for women who work full time is about 77% of the median income of men who work full time.  But, on average, male full-time workers put in more overtime; are more likely to work outside, exposed to the weather; have fewer career interruptions; have more experience; work in more dangerous occupations; and are more likely to work in math-intensive fields.  Controlling for these kinds of variables, the disparity evaporates.

Another example comes from academia.  Some years ago the University of Florida was presented by the faculty union with a discrimination claim on behalf of female faculty members.  The union claimed that women were underpaid some $39 million annually.

Dr. Lawrence Kenney, a professor in the economics department with a background in both labor &amp; educational economics, conducted his own study.  He controlled for variables that the union-bought study did not take into account, such as the number of publications in peer-reviewed journals.  When such variables were taken into account, the alleged disparities effectively vanished.

This pattern should be enough to make anyone skeptical of discrimination as explanation for the low proportion of women in math &amp; science.  This skepticism is only enhanced by various signs of the times: Scholarships for women in &quot;non-traditional&quot; fields; affirmative action; the fanatical persecution of President Summers; and other, smaller examples.


As for the other explanations, I have already sketched some of the reasons for thinking that the occupational choices made by female scholars play a major role.

So, what about cognitive differences between the sexes?  Well, I am not an expert in the field, but I did &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0728hm.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this article&lt;/A&gt; interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lawrence Summers, then the president of Harvard, got in trouble a few years back by saying that of the three principal explanations for the low proportion of women in doctorate-level math &amp; sciences, discrimination was probably the least important.</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>One reason to be skeptical of using &#8220;discrimination&#8221; as an explanation is that it so often fails on closer examination, at least in the US &amp; similar societies.  For example, a decade ago it was popular to accuse banks &amp; mortgage lenders of discrimination because they turned down black &amp; Hispanic mortgage applicants more often than white applicants.  This claim was repeated long after careful observers had noted that <i>white</i> applicants were turned down more often than <i>Asian</i> applicants.  Where discrimination is involved, the truth is no defense.</p>
<p>Additionally, it was pointed out that the mortgage default rate was higher for blacks than for whites.  This suggests that more high-risk loans were made to blacks than to whites – the very opposite of discrimination.</p>
<p>(What a difference a decade makes.  Back then banks were accused of discrimination because they didn’t lend to high-risk applicants.  Now they are accused of &#8220;predatory&#8221; lending because they did.  The term &#8220;predatory&#8221; is, to put it mildly, not well defined.)</p>
<p>Numerous other examples can be found in labor markets.  For example, it is often claimed that women make 77% as men for the same work.  Actually, no.</p>
<p>The basis for this claim is that the median income for women who work full time is about 77% of the median income of men who work full time.  But, on average, male full-time workers put in more overtime; are more likely to work outside, exposed to the weather; have fewer career interruptions; have more experience; work in more dangerous occupations; and are more likely to work in math-intensive fields.  Controlling for these kinds of variables, the disparity evaporates.</p>
<p>Another example comes from academia.  Some years ago the University of Florida was presented by the faculty union with a discrimination claim on behalf of female faculty members.  The union claimed that women were underpaid some $39 million annually.</p>
<p>Dr. Lawrence Kenney, a professor in the economics department with a background in both labor &amp; educational economics, conducted his own study.  He controlled for variables that the union-bought study did not take into account, such as the number of publications in peer-reviewed journals.  When such variables were taken into account, the alleged disparities effectively vanished.</p>
<p>This pattern should be enough to make anyone skeptical of discrimination as explanation for the low proportion of women in math &amp; science.  This skepticism is only enhanced by various signs of the times: Scholarships for women in &#8220;non-traditional&#8221; fields; affirmative action; the fanatical persecution of President Summers; and other, smaller examples.</p>
<p>As for the other explanations, I have already sketched some of the reasons for thinking that the occupational choices made by female scholars play a major role.</p>
<p>So, what about cognitive differences between the sexes?  Well, I am not an expert in the field, but I did <a HREF="http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0728hm.html" rel="nofollow">this article</a> interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: nate</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41962</link>
		<dc:creator>nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41962</guid>
		<description>I am not sure where you have grown up, what economic class or division but it seems plainly apparent to me that you have a view of the use of this word that buys into the irrelevant chatter from the edge of the relevant world. I hear it everyday, every hour on my street and have had many a conversation with those who use the word in it&#039;s modern hip-hop sense and have to say that to think that those who use this word do so as a show of protest againest language that has kept them down is absurd. I know of no one whom puposely uses the word to conduct such an agenda, at least not any of the people who live the &quot;thug life&quot; day to day. It has been made popular with the use of a morally corrupt defintion feed through several pipelines of mass produced records and media, mostly through the advent of &quot;thug life&quot;, and that is what it carries through in it&#039;s use, a &quot;thug life&quot;. The irony is that the derogetory term has been turned into yet another one, upholding morally bankrupt action and belief in a world of social conviction bent on crime, sexism, and violence. It is very easy for the people outside of the areas and conditions that this word originated in to say this or that on the right and wrongs of its use. That misses the entire point of why it should be frowned upon, no matter whom uses it!!!!!!! I live in an area where people are shot and robbed daily, and I hold no respect for anyone who can defend the use of this word without, it seems, the slightest clue as to its use or origin outside of fity cent and snoop! It wouldn&#039;t matter what race I was, if I called all women &quot;bitch&quot; it would not be the pinicale of social mannerism, it would be derogetory and ignorant, and that doesn&#039;t mean that if women start calling themselves &quot;bitches&quot; that it makes the word any different or any less derogetory. People should be aware of the full context of this re-establishment of a racist and derogatory term before they come out and defend its use by this race or that one. All it does is divide us further and highlight differences that shouldn&#039;t exist in the first place. If we believe ourselves so advanced, so morally upright then why do we still insist on defending those who only continue to hold back the progress of not just one race or another but the entire culture. I love your blog, but this article has left me wanting of a more intelligent discussion on an issue that affects me everyday of my life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure where you have grown up, what economic class or division but it seems plainly apparent to me that you have a view of the use of this word that buys into the irrelevant chatter from the edge of the relevant world. I hear it everyday, every hour on my street and have had many a conversation with those who use the word in it&#8217;s modern hip-hop sense and have to say that to think that those who use this word do so as a show of protest againest language that has kept them down is absurd. I know of no one whom puposely uses the word to conduct such an agenda, at least not any of the people who live the &#8220;thug life&#8221; day to day. It has been made popular with the use of a morally corrupt defintion feed through several pipelines of mass produced records and media, mostly through the advent of &#8220;thug life&#8221;, and that is what it carries through in it&#8217;s use, a &#8220;thug life&#8221;. The irony is that the derogetory term has been turned into yet another one, upholding morally bankrupt action and belief in a world of social conviction bent on crime, sexism, and violence. It is very easy for the people outside of the areas and conditions that this word originated in to say this or that on the right and wrongs of its use. That misses the entire point of why it should be frowned upon, no matter whom uses it!!!!!!! I live in an area where people are shot and robbed daily, and I hold no respect for anyone who can defend the use of this word without, it seems, the slightest clue as to its use or origin outside of fity cent and snoop! It wouldn&#8217;t matter what race I was, if I called all women &#8220;bitch&#8221; it would not be the pinicale of social mannerism, it would be derogetory and ignorant, and that doesn&#8217;t mean that if women start calling themselves &#8220;bitches&#8221; that it makes the word any different or any less derogetory. People should be aware of the full context of this re-establishment of a racist and derogatory term before they come out and defend its use by this race or that one. All it does is divide us further and highlight differences that shouldn&#8217;t exist in the first place. If we believe ourselves so advanced, so morally upright then why do we still insist on defending those who only continue to hold back the progress of not just one race or another but the entire culture. I love your blog, but this article has left me wanting of a more intelligent discussion on an issue that affects me everyday of my life.</p>
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		<title>By: Eugene</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41918</link>
		<dc:creator>Eugene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41918</guid>
		<description>I think one of the clearest example of this kind of social symmetry breaking is the fact that poverty is a risk factor for obesity.

It is obvious to many that poor people can eat as healthily as rich people, but somehow chose to eat less healthily. So the naive conclusion is that &quot;poor people must be less health conscious&quot; than rich people. Which is of course nonsense, but is the kind of &#039;thinking-in-a-vacuum&#039; that can get you into wrong conclusions like these. The truth is a lot more complicated, with stress factors, depression, food availability (e.g. rich neighbourhoods have more gourmet stalls, poor ones have McD).

But you won&#039;t believe how many well-to-do people think that the problem of obese poor people is simply that &quot;poor people made stupid choices and hence they have nothing but themselves to blame&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one of the clearest example of this kind of social symmetry breaking is the fact that poverty is a risk factor for obesity.</p>
<p>It is obvious to many that poor people can eat as healthily as rich people, but somehow chose to eat less healthily. So the naive conclusion is that &#8220;poor people must be less health conscious&#8221; than rich people. Which is of course nonsense, but is the kind of &#8216;thinking-in-a-vacuum&#8217; that can get you into wrong conclusions like these. The truth is a lot more complicated, with stress factors, depression, food availability (e.g. rich neighbourhoods have more gourmet stalls, poor ones have McD).</p>
<p>But you won&#8217;t believe how many well-to-do people think that the problem of obese poor people is simply that &#8220;poor people made stupid choices and hence they have nothing but themselves to blame&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Pieter Kok</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41912</link>
		<dc:creator>Pieter Kok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 07:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41912</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the thread hijack; affirmative action was just my (possibly flawed) example to illustrate that the argument for different rules for different groups seems to assume homogeneous groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the thread hijack; affirmative action was just my (possibly flawed) example to illustrate that the argument for different rules for different groups seems to assume homogeneous groups.</p>
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		<title>By: John Knight</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41961</link>
		<dc:creator>John Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41961</guid>
		<description>Only in the short run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only in the short run.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41960</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41960</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Why? Do we really want to subsidize the practice of separating infants &amp; children from their mothers? Because once the mothers of very young children go back to work, most of the time, their children get warehoused in commercial day-care centers.

What is the goal? Is the goal to find the best students, workers, &amp; professors at the lowest opportunity cost? Or is the goal some arbitrary standard of numerical parity? &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Uhhh, paid maternity leave would be the exact opposite of separating infants and children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Why? Do we really want to subsidize the practice of separating infants &amp; children from their mothers? Because once the mothers of very young children go back to work, most of the time, their children get warehoused in commercial day-care centers.</p>
<p>What is the goal? Is the goal to find the best students, workers, &amp; professors at the lowest opportunity cost? Or is the goal some arbitrary standard of numerical parity? </p></blockquote>
<p>Uhhh, paid maternity leave would be the exact opposite of separating infants and children.</p>
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		<title>By: John Knight</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/comment-page-1/#comment-41958</link>
		<dc:creator>John Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/07/23/spontaneous-social-symmetry-breaking/#comment-41958</guid>
		<description>Relpy to comment #29:

&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt; &lt;B&gt;Pieter Kok:&lt;/B&gt;

...For example, affirmative action in higher education is generally a good tool to help underprivileged groups, but it is very unfair to the (white male) student who would otherwise have made it into Harvard/Yale/etc... &lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

In many states, and in elite schools like Yale &amp; Harvard, whites more or less break even because of affirmative action.  While more black students are admitted, fewer Asian students are admitted, and the number of whites is about the same.

However, the claim that &quot;affirmative action in higher education is generally a good tool to help underprivileged groups&quot; is not supported by the evidence.  Students admitted under affirmative action tend to have much lower graduation rates than other students, even if they would have had very good prospects at less demanding schools.  And those affirmative action students that do get degrees tend to wind up in less demanding fields, including some fields that are highly politicized.

The evidence for affirmative action programs generally is not supportive of the claim that such programs benefit target groups.  For example, American blacks, as a group, made faster economic progress prior to the advent of affirmative action policies than in the decades that followed the spread of racial preferences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Relpy to comment #29:</p>
<blockquote><p> <b>Pieter Kok:</b></p>
<p>&#8230;For example, affirmative action in higher education is generally a good tool to help underprivileged groups, but it is very unfair to the (white male) student who would otherwise have made it into Harvard/Yale/etc&#8230; </p></blockquote>
<p>In many states, and in elite schools like Yale &amp; Harvard, whites more or less break even because of affirmative action.  While more black students are admitted, fewer Asian students are admitted, and the number of whites is about the same.</p>
<p>However, the claim that &#8220;affirmative action in higher education is generally a good tool to help underprivileged groups&#8221; is not supported by the evidence.  Students admitted under affirmative action tend to have much lower graduation rates than other students, even if they would have had very good prospects at less demanding schools.  And those affirmative action students that do get degrees tend to wind up in less demanding fields, including some fields that are highly politicized.</p>
<p>The evidence for affirmative action programs generally is not supportive of the claim that such programs benefit target groups.  For example, American blacks, as a group, made faster economic progress prior to the advent of affirmative action policies than in the decades that followed the spread of racial preferences.</p>
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