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	<title>Comments on: Chatting Theology with Robert Novak</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: collin237</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46142</link>
		<dc:creator>collin237</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 07:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46142</guid>
		<description>Jason,

I think the official term is mood swing. The more guilty one feels about thinking spiritually for &quot;dessert&quot;, the more one resolves to think rationally for &quot;the next meal&#039;s main course&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>I think the official term is mood swing. The more guilty one feels about thinking spiritually for &#8220;dessert&#8221;, the more one resolves to think rationally for &#8220;the next meal&#8217;s main course&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: TwisMinion</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46057</link>
		<dc:creator>TwisMinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 08:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46057</guid>
		<description>I think you were very tactful. I lack that skill.
I would have started it that way, but after a short silence I&#039;d have continued that if god existed, then god would do so physically.  There would be a god walking down the sidewalk, waiting for the light to change (or changing it at will as not to make god late).  We would see a god made of matter, flesh and blood maybe even, and interacting with humanity with no less certainty than we interact with gravity.  Otherwise there can be no god. For if god intended to remain a non physical entity in the physical world of man, god could just as well have imagined us to exist and never created the physical world at all.  Since the physical world exists without a physical god, god must never have existed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you were very tactful. I lack that skill.<br />
I would have started it that way, but after a short silence I&#8217;d have continued that if god existed, then god would do so physically.  There would be a god walking down the sidewalk, waiting for the light to change (or changing it at will as not to make god late).  We would see a god made of matter, flesh and blood maybe even, and interacting with humanity with no less certainty than we interact with gravity.  Otherwise there can be no god. For if god intended to remain a non physical entity in the physical world of man, god could just as well have imagined us to exist and never created the physical world at all.  Since the physical world exists without a physical god, god must never have existed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46141</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46141</guid>
		<description>Nah, you can terminate at a self-explanatory explanation.  This would be an explanation with zero information content, such as &quot;all mathematical structures exist&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nah, you can terminate at a self-explanatory explanation.  This would be an explanation with zero information content, such as &#8220;all mathematical structures exist&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil B. ?</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46140</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil B. ?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46140</guid>
		<description>But Jason, then you have an infinite regress because whatever is used to explain the universe, divine or not, needs an explanation according to you, which needs an explanation in turn, etc. But if you say the universe is at some level self-sufficient, I&#039;ll just say it can&#039;t be because of the &quot;why this way to be and not some other&quot; and say &quot;something else&quot; must be responsible.  It&#039;s a &quot;not&quot; operator like I said: &quot;Not&quot; the universe because it can&#039;t bootstrap its own way to be IMHO and justify it&#039;s selection among the platonic possibilities (again, I must bring up my overworked term &quot;modal realism.&quot;) If whatever &quot;that&quot; is, can&#039;t be understood I would say it&#039;s just our tough luck that it has those problems, it is just a necessary background to there being &quot;something&quot;.

BTW those heuristics like &quot;compression&quot; (is that a term that philosophers of science use now, or just your coinage?) that we have developed because of their practical helpfulness in everyday explaining (i.e., from foundational givens like laws into things like what stars act like) shouldn&#039;t be expected to have the same applicability outside their region of known usefulness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Jason, then you have an infinite regress because whatever is used to explain the universe, divine or not, needs an explanation according to you, which needs an explanation in turn, etc. But if you say the universe is at some level self-sufficient, I&#8217;ll just say it can&#8217;t be because of the &#8220;why this way to be and not some other&#8221; and say &#8220;something else&#8221; must be responsible.  It&#8217;s a &#8220;not&#8221; operator like I said: &#8220;Not&#8221; the universe because it can&#8217;t bootstrap its own way to be IMHO and justify it&#8217;s selection among the platonic possibilities (again, I must bring up my overworked term &#8220;modal realism.&#8221;) If whatever &#8220;that&#8221; is, can&#8217;t be understood I would say it&#8217;s just our tough luck that it has those problems, it is just a necessary background to there being &#8220;something&#8221;.</p>
<p>BTW those heuristics like &#8220;compression&#8221; (is that a term that philosophers of science use now, or just your coinage?) that we have developed because of their practical helpfulness in everyday explaining (i.e., from foundational givens like laws into things like what stars act like) shouldn&#8217;t be expected to have the same applicability outside their region of known usefulness.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46139</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46139</guid>
		<description>Neil,

It&#039;s an explanation if it provides compression.  That is, if you can show that many quantities can be explained by a few, then you&#039;ve provided an explanation for the value those many quantities take by highlighting relationships between them.

As for why there must always be an explanation, this is simply because if an unexplainable entity is ever proposed, then it cannot be an explanation for anything, because by its unexplainable nature it could potentially explain &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt;.  This unrestricted quality prevents it from offering the compression required for an explanation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an explanation if it provides compression.  That is, if you can show that many quantities can be explained by a few, then you&#8217;ve provided an explanation for the value those many quantities take by highlighting relationships between them.</p>
<p>As for why there must always be an explanation, this is simply because if an unexplainable entity is ever proposed, then it cannot be an explanation for anything, because by its unexplainable nature it could potentially explain <i>anything</i>.  This unrestricted quality prevents it from offering the compression required for an explanation.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil B. ?</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46138</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil B. ?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46138</guid>
		<description>But Jason, the &quot;laws&quot; can&#039;t be treated as explaining anything anyway as Hume pointed out. Saying &lt;i&gt;It</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Jason, the &#8220;laws&#8221; can&#8217;t be treated as explaining anything anyway as Hume pointed out. Saying <i>It</i></p>
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		<title>By: JimV</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46137</link>
		<dc:creator>JimV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46137</guid>
		<description>I hope this is not off-topic, or else I am breaking my promise, but I feel compelled to say that Jason Dick&#039;s #83 is my favorite comment of the millenium (so far).

P.S. Wasn&#039;t going to comment further until I saw #83, but as long as I am here ... thanks to Colin and Electric Dragon for the news about Wilson&#039;s Theorem.  Colin&#039;s initial comment was slightly remiss in recollection, as ED pointed out, but still sufficed to let me find Wilson&#039;s Theorem in my google search.  (I guess I will have to stop calling it &quot;JimV&#039;s Theorem&quot;.)  My proof is different and less direct than the one I found from the search, but contains a number of other terms which are also only divisible by primes - as I said, I was looking for something else and stumbled on it more or less by accident, which made me wonder how much mathematical progress is accidental and hence explicitly materialistic in origin.

(As self-judge, I rule my comment OT, and sentence myself to one week without further blog commenting.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope this is not off-topic, or else I am breaking my promise, but I feel compelled to say that Jason Dick&#8217;s #83 is my favorite comment of the millenium (so far).</p>
<p>P.S. Wasn&#8217;t going to comment further until I saw #83, but as long as I am here &#8230; thanks to Colin and Electric Dragon for the news about Wilson&#8217;s Theorem.  Colin&#8217;s initial comment was slightly remiss in recollection, as ED pointed out, but still sufficed to let me find Wilson&#8217;s Theorem in my google search.  (I guess I will have to stop calling it &#8220;JimV&#8217;s Theorem&#8221;.)  My proof is different and less direct than the one I found from the search, but contains a number of other terms which are also only divisible by primes &#8211; as I said, I was looking for something else and stumbled on it more or less by accident, which made me wonder how much mathematical progress is accidental and hence explicitly materialistic in origin.</p>
<p>(As self-judge, I rule my comment OT, and sentence myself to one week without further blog commenting.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46136</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46136</guid>
		<description>What, what?  Neglecting realism equates to being more realistic!?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What, what?  Neglecting realism equates to being more realistic!?</p>
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		<title>By: collin237</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46112</link>
		<dc:creator>collin237</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 05:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46112</guid>
		<description>Jason wrote
&lt;blockquote&gt;because if something operates or is, there must be a way to describe how it operates, why it is.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually, a religious realist (that is, someone who believes in &quot;God, but not a book&quot;) can be &lt;em&gt;more&lt;/em&gt; attuned to this requirement than an atheist, because he admits to having a tendency to neglect it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason wrote</p>
<blockquote><p>because if something operates or is, there must be a way to describe how it operates, why it is.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually, a religious realist (that is, someone who believes in &#8220;God, but not a book&#8221;) can be <em>more</em> attuned to this requirement than an atheist, because he admits to having a tendency to neglect it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/comment-page-1/#comment-46135</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/07/chatting-theology-with-robert-novak/#comment-46135</guid>
		<description>Colin,

Okay, that&#039;s fine.  But that just begs the question as to why &lt;i&gt;these&lt;/i&gt; laws.  As a result, it still doesn&#039;t explain anything.

Otis,

No, actually, attempting to identify deficiencies of materialism and attempting to use a god as an explanation are closely intertwined.  Using a god is just one possible way of trying to get around materialism.  But it&#039;s a logically unsound thing to do: materialism is simply an inevitable consequence of existence.  Why do I say this?

I say this because I define materialism as this: materialism is the refusal to resort to any explanations that require hypothetical entities that cannot be understood by their very definition.  That is to say, even if we were to make a thought experiment to build the most elaborate, powerful instruments we could dream up in our wildest imaginations, these non-materialistic hypothetical entities would still elude understanding (caveat: by understanding here I don&#039;t mean intuitive understanding, but simply the ability to describe how/why the thing in question works or is the way it is).

So, why is this nonsense?  It&#039;s nonsense simply because if something operates or is, there must be a way to describe how it operates, why it is.  The absolute best argument you can offer against this is that there are some aspects of the natural world that we do not understand (that&#039;s the argument you have put forward, in fact).  But simply not knowing certain facts does in no way indicate that we should give up by referencing an illogical explanation that cannot itself ever be explained, even in principle.

As for the Bible, suffice it to say that that text is so absurdly wrong on so many levels that it just boggles my mind that anybody thinks it offers any level of reliability.

P.S.  You may have a first cause objection to my claim that the only possible universe is a fully-materialistic one.  This objection fails because one needs only have a fundamental law that explains itself to get around the problem of an uncaused fundamental cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colin,</p>
<p>Okay, that&#8217;s fine.  But that just begs the question as to why <i>these</i> laws.  As a result, it still doesn&#8217;t explain anything.</p>
<p>Otis,</p>
<p>No, actually, attempting to identify deficiencies of materialism and attempting to use a god as an explanation are closely intertwined.  Using a god is just one possible way of trying to get around materialism.  But it&#8217;s a logically unsound thing to do: materialism is simply an inevitable consequence of existence.  Why do I say this?</p>
<p>I say this because I define materialism as this: materialism is the refusal to resort to any explanations that require hypothetical entities that cannot be understood by their very definition.  That is to say, even if we were to make a thought experiment to build the most elaborate, powerful instruments we could dream up in our wildest imaginations, these non-materialistic hypothetical entities would still elude understanding (caveat: by understanding here I don&#8217;t mean intuitive understanding, but simply the ability to describe how/why the thing in question works or is the way it is).</p>
<p>So, why is this nonsense?  It&#8217;s nonsense simply because if something operates or is, there must be a way to describe how it operates, why it is.  The absolute best argument you can offer against this is that there are some aspects of the natural world that we do not understand (that&#8217;s the argument you have put forward, in fact).  But simply not knowing certain facts does in no way indicate that we should give up by referencing an illogical explanation that cannot itself ever be explained, even in principle.</p>
<p>As for the Bible, suffice it to say that that text is so absurdly wrong on so many levels that it just boggles my mind that anybody thinks it offers any level of reliability.</p>
<p>P.S.  You may have a first cause objection to my claim that the only possible universe is a fully-materialistic one.  This objection fails because one needs only have a fundamental law that explains itself to get around the problem of an uncaused fundamental cause.</p>
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