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	<title>Comments on: Spiritual Menu</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Lusepuster</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46338</link>
		<dc:creator>Lusepuster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:27:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46338</guid>
		<description>If there were any good translations around, some poems of Norwegian humanist Arnulf </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there were any good translations around, some poems of Norwegian humanist Arnulf</p>
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		<title>By: John Knight</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46337</link>
		<dc:creator>John Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46337</guid>
		<description>Perhaps just a line of two from Shakespeare:

&quot;A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.&quot;

Or...

&quot;There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps just a line of two from Shakespeare:</p>
<p>&#8220;A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Or&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46336</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 01:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46336</guid>
		<description>The Tao is a great read for this atheist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Tao is a great read for this atheist.</p>
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		<title>By: The First Quantum Cosmologist &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46281</link>
		<dc:creator>The First Quantum Cosmologist &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46281</guid>
		<description>[...] of you scoffed last week when I mentioned that Lucretius had been a pioneer in statistical mechanics. (Not out loud, but inwardly, there was scoffing.) But [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of you scoffed last week when I mentioned that Lucretius had been a pioneer in statistical mechanics. (Not out loud, but inwardly, there was scoffing.) But [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Snorri Godhi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46280</link>
		<dc:creator>Snorri Godhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 09:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46280</guid>
		<description>Neil B: your 1st paragraph would hardly be comprehensible with matching parentheses; with an unmatched parenthesis, it&#039;s beyond me.

Anyway, as far as I can make out, your reply has little or nothing to do with what I said, which is that I do not see the point of having a belief whose truth or falsity will not affect me in any way.  I was referring specifically to atheism, because, clearly, a belief in atheism would not change my behavior (except for motivating me to spend valuable time trying to convert others to atheism, maybe); while a religious belief would.

I do NOT believe that &quot;verifiability matters so much&quot;, or else why would I put Popper in my list?

BTW here are a few more books that I should have put in the list:
How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie;
Winning the Games People Play, by Nathon Myron (probably the most underrated);
The Prince, by Niccolo&#039; Machiavelli;
The Art of War, by Sun Tzu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil B: your 1st paragraph would hardly be comprehensible with matching parentheses; with an unmatched parenthesis, it&#8217;s beyond me.</p>
<p>Anyway, as far as I can make out, your reply has little or nothing to do with what I said, which is that I do not see the point of having a belief whose truth or falsity will not affect me in any way.  I was referring specifically to atheism, because, clearly, a belief in atheism would not change my behavior (except for motivating me to spend valuable time trying to convert others to atheism, maybe); while a religious belief would.</p>
<p>I do NOT believe that &#8220;verifiability matters so much&#8221;, or else why would I put Popper in my list?</p>
<p>BTW here are a few more books that I should have put in the list:<br />
How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie;<br />
Winning the Games People Play, by Nathon Myron (probably the most underrated);<br />
The Prince, by Niccolo&#8217; Machiavelli;<br />
The Art of War, by Sun Tzu.</p>
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		<title>By: abelian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46290</link>
		<dc:creator>abelian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46290</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Why the hell do hotels feel obliged to provide religious books for their clients in the first place? Why not books about various political stances, or about cooking, or about art, or about science? &lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;


Hotels are businesses, they are not there to try and influence the world view of their customers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b><i>Why the hell do hotels feel obliged to provide religious books for their clients in the first place? Why not books about various political stances, or about cooking, or about art, or about science? </i></b></p>
<p>Hotels are businesses, they are not there to try and influence the world view of their customers</p>
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		<title>By: Janus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46291</link>
		<dc:creator>Janus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46291</guid>
		<description>Why the hell do hotels feel obliged to provide religious books for their clients in the first place? Why not books about various political stances, or about cooking, or about art, or about science? This kind of antiquated mentality that puts religious beliefs on a pedestal doesn&#039;t need to be broadened to (illogically) include atheism, it just needs to go away.


---


On a completely different topic, I want to reply to the second paragraph of Neil B.&#039;s comment 56. Defining God as &quot;whatever the universe&#039;s existence is contingent on&quot; is the sort of tactic that makes atheists like me conclude that theologians and their fans are fundamentally dishonest. What if the thing that the universe&#039;s existence is contingent on was a cellular automaton? Would you call it &#039;God&#039;? What if the thing that the universe is contingent on was something akin to a plant whose pollen develops into universes? Would you call it &#039;God&#039;? What if the thing that the universe is contingent on is a team of alien scientists (whose species evolved in another universe) who designed a universe-simulation? Would you call them &#039;God&#039;?

If you would call any of those things God, you&#039;re being dishonest, because that&#039;s not what people usually mean by the word. There is an infinity of things that our universe could be contingent upon that can&#039;t be called God. A hypothesis&#039; number of rival hypotheses is what determines how a priori unlikely it is. Therefore, using analogies like a teapot orbiting the Sun beyond Mars&#039; orbit, or an invisible unicorn, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is perfectly warranted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why the hell do hotels feel obliged to provide religious books for their clients in the first place? Why not books about various political stances, or about cooking, or about art, or about science? This kind of antiquated mentality that puts religious beliefs on a pedestal doesn&#8217;t need to be broadened to (illogically) include atheism, it just needs to go away.</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>On a completely different topic, I want to reply to the second paragraph of Neil B.&#8217;s comment 56. Defining God as &#8220;whatever the universe&#8217;s existence is contingent on&#8221; is the sort of tactic that makes atheists like me conclude that theologians and their fans are fundamentally dishonest. What if the thing that the universe&#8217;s existence is contingent on was a cellular automaton? Would you call it &#8216;God&#8217;? What if the thing that the universe is contingent on was something akin to a plant whose pollen develops into universes? Would you call it &#8216;God&#8217;? What if the thing that the universe is contingent on is a team of alien scientists (whose species evolved in another universe) who designed a universe-simulation? Would you call them &#8216;God&#8217;?</p>
<p>If you would call any of those things God, you&#8217;re being dishonest, because that&#8217;s not what people usually mean by the word. There is an infinity of things that our universe could be contingent upon that can&#8217;t be called God. A hypothesis&#8217; number of rival hypotheses is what determines how a priori unlikely it is. Therefore, using analogies like a teapot orbiting the Sun beyond Mars&#8217; orbit, or an invisible unicorn, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is perfectly warranted.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil B. ?</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46335</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil B. ?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46335</guid>
		<description>Snorri, maybe you should consider that much of what we take for common sense fact (world exists independently of observer, world is &quot;real&quot; in a way distinct from (alert!) modal realism&#039;s notion of all possible worlds, and probabilities (can never be falsified since any outlier can eventually occur) etc.  I wonder why those who say that verifiability matters so much, don&#039;t spend more time picking on those (like Jason Dick) who consider the multiple-worlds postulate a game point. Where the hell are those other worlds?

BTW I believe there&#039;s something more &quot;behind&quot; the universe&#039;s existence because of insights about contingent existence etc, whether I can be &quot;sure&quot; or verify it or not. What proves the notions about what we should or should believe or is sensible etc, claims that something is meaningless unless verifiable are themselves based on arguments as ultimately non-empirical as the existence of God.  Finally, Penn&#039;s arguments are so pitifully simple-minded: by definition &quot;God&quot; is whatever the universe&#039;s existence is contingent on if such be needed, so comparing it to a random entity like &quot;an elephant in a trunk&quot; with no ontological function (that can be defined w/o just being a smart-aleck ass) shows the man&#039;s philosophical illiteracy. Well, he&#039;s just a performer, but I can&#039;t imagine what the excuse is for like-minded &quot;philosophers&quot; who offer such puerile rubbish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Snorri, maybe you should consider that much of what we take for common sense fact (world exists independently of observer, world is &#8220;real&#8221; in a way distinct from (alert!) modal realism&#8217;s notion of all possible worlds, and probabilities (can never be falsified since any outlier can eventually occur) etc.  I wonder why those who say that verifiability matters so much, don&#8217;t spend more time picking on those (like Jason Dick) who consider the multiple-worlds postulate a game point. Where the hell are those other worlds?</p>
<p>BTW I believe there&#8217;s something more &#8220;behind&#8221; the universe&#8217;s existence because of insights about contingent existence etc, whether I can be &#8220;sure&#8221; or verify it or not. What proves the notions about what we should or should believe or is sensible etc, claims that something is meaningless unless verifiable are themselves based on arguments as ultimately non-empirical as the existence of God.  Finally, Penn&#8217;s arguments are so pitifully simple-minded: by definition &#8220;God&#8221; is whatever the universe&#8217;s existence is contingent on if such be needed, so comparing it to a random entity like &#8220;an elephant in a trunk&#8221; with no ontological function (that can be defined w/o just being a smart-aleck ass) shows the man&#8217;s philosophical illiteracy. Well, he&#8217;s just a performer, but I can&#8217;t imagine what the excuse is for like-minded &#8220;philosophers&#8221; who offer such puerile rubbish.</p>
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		<title>By: Snorri Godhi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46334</link>
		<dc:creator>Snorri Godhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46334</guid>
		<description>I am not an atheist either: I simply do not see the point of having a belief that can never be verified or falsified.

Nonetheless, I believe that there are some books that everybody should read, independently of faith and cultural background.  These books include, but are not limited to:
The Logic of Scientific Discovery, by Karl Popper (anything that Popper wrote is highly recommended);
Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, by Charles MacKay;
Learned Optimism, by Martin Seligman;
English Culture and the Decline of the Industrial Spirit, by Martin Wiener;
the Icelandic Sagas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not an atheist either: I simply do not see the point of having a belief that can never be verified or falsified.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, I believe that there are some books that everybody should read, independently of faith and cultural background.  These books include, but are not limited to:<br />
The Logic of Scientific Discovery, by Karl Popper (anything that Popper wrote is highly recommended);<br />
Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, by Charles MacKay;<br />
Learned Optimism, by Martin Seligman;<br />
English Culture and the Decline of the Industrial Spirit, by Martin Wiener;<br />
the Icelandic Sagas.</p>
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		<title>By: ThinkAfrica</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/comment-page-1/#comment-46279</link>
		<dc:creator>ThinkAfrica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/08/11/spiritual-menu/#comment-46279</guid>
		<description>I would strongly recommend &quot;The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark&quot; by Carl Sagan and  &quot;On Human Nature&quot; by E. O. Wilson as the two texts that most perfectly encompass Atheism today. I was shocked that no one had mentioned them before.

Additionally in answer to the Buddhist bible question I would suggest The Bodhichary?vat?ra, which is a fascinating read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would strongly recommend &#8220;The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark&#8221; by Carl Sagan and  &#8220;On Human Nature&#8221; by E. O. Wilson as the two texts that most perfectly encompass Atheism today. I was shocked that no one had mentioned them before.</p>
<p>Additionally in answer to the Buddhist bible question I would suggest The Bodhichary?vat?ra, which is a fascinating read.</p>
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