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	<title>Comments on: Self-Driving Cars</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: John R Ramsden</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44522</link>
		<dc:creator>John R Ramsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44522</guid>
		<description>Sean wrote &quot;Concerning flying cars and jetpacks, I’m likewise pessimistic (at least sometimes). But those sexbots are on the way ..&quot;

Yes, I have my eye on one of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.planebuzz.com/american-retro-classic-pedal-plane-american-airlines-airplane-ride-on.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;these&lt;/a&gt; little beauts, although it&#039;s hard to judge the exact scale.

Presumably the strange looking pedal-like assembly underneath is some kind of advanced retractable landing gear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean wrote &#8220;Concerning flying cars and jetpacks, I’m likewise pessimistic (at least sometimes). But those sexbots are on the way ..&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, I have my eye on one of <a href="http://www.planebuzz.com/american-retro-classic-pedal-plane-american-airlines-airplane-ride-on.jpg" rel="nofollow">these</a> little beauts, although it&#8217;s hard to judge the exact scale.</p>
<p>Presumably the strange looking pedal-like assembly underneath is some kind of advanced retractable landing gear.</p>
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		<title>By: David McMahon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44543</link>
		<dc:creator>David McMahon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44543</guid>
		<description>Hi Matt,
Having the cars go to a parking garage on the edge of town seems silly. As it is now, if I want to go to Borders I can park right outside. So when I am browsing books and the mood suits me to leave, I just walk out and get my car. So why would I want a self driving car parked at the edge of town? I would have to ping it when ready and then sit there and wait 20 minutes for the thing to show up. Sounds like a pain in the butt. In any case I still don&#039;t see how its going to reduce space used for cars. If the same number of people are at the mall, their self-driving cars are going to take up the same amount of space as their manual cars do now.

David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Matt,<br />
Having the cars go to a parking garage on the edge of town seems silly. As it is now, if I want to go to Borders I can park right outside. So when I am browsing books and the mood suits me to leave, I just walk out and get my car. So why would I want a self driving car parked at the edge of town? I would have to ping it when ready and then sit there and wait 20 minutes for the thing to show up. Sounds like a pain in the butt. In any case I still don&#8217;t see how its going to reduce space used for cars. If the same number of people are at the mall, their self-driving cars are going to take up the same amount of space as their manual cars do now.</p>
<p>David</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44556</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44556</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, as The Almighty Bob pointed out, the issue that will stop self-driving cars from becomming commonplace is liability. This is especially important in a country that is now practically built on a foundation of litigation, such as the United States.

Think about it: if your automatic car crashes into a bus full of catholic schoolgirls and nuns, killing them all in a horrible fireball, who is at fault? There is no way the car companies will want to wear that kind of publicity or liability.

Speaking of publicity... TimG  points out that about 42 thousand Americans die each year in car crashes. If we assume that the first iteration of self-driving cars aren&#039;t perfect and te death toll is reduced to about 20 thousand, which headline will sell more papers?

&quot;Self-Driving Cars Cut Death Toll in Half&quot;
or
&quot;Phycho Robot Cars Kill 20 Thousand&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, as The Almighty Bob pointed out, the issue that will stop self-driving cars from becomming commonplace is liability. This is especially important in a country that is now practically built on a foundation of litigation, such as the United States.</p>
<p>Think about it: if your automatic car crashes into a bus full of catholic schoolgirls and nuns, killing them all in a horrible fireball, who is at fault? There is no way the car companies will want to wear that kind of publicity or liability.</p>
<p>Speaking of publicity&#8230; TimG  points out that about 42 thousand Americans die each year in car crashes. If we assume that the first iteration of self-driving cars aren&#8217;t perfect and te death toll is reduced to about 20 thousand, which headline will sell more papers?</p>
<p>&#8220;Self-Driving Cars Cut Death Toll in Half&#8221;<br />
or<br />
&#8220;Phycho Robot Cars Kill 20 Thousand&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: bane</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44542</link>
		<dc:creator>bane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44542</guid>
		<description>Assuming you define a &quot;self-driving car&quot; as a car that drives itself under almost all conditions (in the city, in the suburbs, in the narrow lanes from another century, not just on the freeway), then it&#039;s going to be doing it using a substantial amount of image processing (even if you use something like laser sensing, when it&#039;s dense enough it&#039;s essentially an image you&#039;re dealing with).

I work in image processing and my professional opinion is: IF we could outlaw humans driving (and really get it enforced), then twenty/twenty-five years we could get it developed and deployed (deployment actually takes much longer than you&#039;d think, so twenty years is &quot;right around the corner&quot;). IF we can&#039;t outlaw human driving then I&#039;d put it at least at the forty year mark. The reason for this is the &quot;New York cabbie problem&quot;: everyone who drives in New York knows that New York cabbies do truly insane things, so upon seeing a yellow cab they hang back a little to deal with problems. But the cabbie&#039;s know this, so they know there are maneuvers they can pull using this knowledge, and push things as much as they can without getting attention from the police. The cabbie&#039;s actively use the way that people view them to increase their driving options.

In the context of self-driving cars, if there are no human drivers then you can assume that other cars will either behave sensibly or they&#039;re malfunctioning and will be behaving &quot;randomly&quot;. This is a hard, but do-able problem. What they aren&#039;t going to do is try and take advantage of the fact that a program, designed to avoid killings, injuries and other damages, is driving the car. But if there are also human drivings, some of them &lt;em&gt;will&lt;/em&gt; decide &quot;since that self-driving car should be able to respond quickly in order to avoid a crash, I&#039;ll cut in front with minimal clearance&quot;. Likewise the envelope of various other &quot;self-centred&quot; driving techniques will get pushed right to the edge. Since just a few deaths that appear to be caused by self-driving cars will cause a backlash, any companies that want to deploy them will need to have the controlling programs completely capable of dealing with an intelligent and actively &quot;hostile&quot; other human drivers whilst still giving a reasonable ride. (If the car emergency stops every five minutes to avoid a human gaming the system it&#039;s not something people will pay for.) This is a much harder problem (indeed the 40 years incorporates a guess of increasing &quot;artificial intelligence&quot; productivity as the years go by, it&#039;s a more than twice as difficult problem.)

I&#039;d actually expect things like surgical robots and robots for helping the elderly to be deployed sooner than self-driving cars precisely because you can safely assume all the humans involved will be co-operating rather than gaming the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Assuming you define a &#8220;self-driving car&#8221; as a car that drives itself under almost all conditions (in the city, in the suburbs, in the narrow lanes from another century, not just on the freeway), then it&#8217;s going to be doing it using a substantial amount of image processing (even if you use something like laser sensing, when it&#8217;s dense enough it&#8217;s essentially an image you&#8217;re dealing with).</p>
<p>I work in image processing and my professional opinion is: IF we could outlaw humans driving (and really get it enforced), then twenty/twenty-five years we could get it developed and deployed (deployment actually takes much longer than you&#8217;d think, so twenty years is &#8220;right around the corner&#8221;). IF we can&#8217;t outlaw human driving then I&#8217;d put it at least at the forty year mark. The reason for this is the &#8220;New York cabbie problem&#8221;: everyone who drives in New York knows that New York cabbies do truly insane things, so upon seeing a yellow cab they hang back a little to deal with problems. But the cabbie&#8217;s know this, so they know there are maneuvers they can pull using this knowledge, and push things as much as they can without getting attention from the police. The cabbie&#8217;s actively use the way that people view them to increase their driving options.</p>
<p>In the context of self-driving cars, if there are no human drivers then you can assume that other cars will either behave sensibly or they&#8217;re malfunctioning and will be behaving &#8220;randomly&#8221;. This is a hard, but do-able problem. What they aren&#8217;t going to do is try and take advantage of the fact that a program, designed to avoid killings, injuries and other damages, is driving the car. But if there are also human drivings, some of them <em>will</em> decide &#8220;since that self-driving car should be able to respond quickly in order to avoid a crash, I&#8217;ll cut in front with minimal clearance&#8221;. Likewise the envelope of various other &#8220;self-centred&#8221; driving techniques will get pushed right to the edge. Since just a few deaths that appear to be caused by self-driving cars will cause a backlash, any companies that want to deploy them will need to have the controlling programs completely capable of dealing with an intelligent and actively &#8220;hostile&#8221; other human drivers whilst still giving a reasonable ride. (If the car emergency stops every five minutes to avoid a human gaming the system it&#8217;s not something people will pay for.) This is a much harder problem (indeed the 40 years incorporates a guess of increasing &#8220;artificial intelligence&#8221; productivity as the years go by, it&#8217;s a more than twice as difficult problem.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;d actually expect things like surgical robots and robots for helping the elderly to be deployed sooner than self-driving cars precisely because you can safely assume all the humans involved will be co-operating rather than gaming the system.</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44555</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44555</guid>
		<description>I think people will continue to enjoy driving themselves.  We can&#039;t automate ourselves out of existence- can we?
Of course I can see the need for a self-driving car if you are with your sex-bot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think people will continue to enjoy driving themselves.  We can&#8217;t automate ourselves out of existence- can we?<br />
Of course I can see the need for a self-driving car if you are with your sex-bot.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Springer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44554</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Springer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44554</guid>
		<description>Geez, #22, fascist much?  Self-driving cars would solve the problem pretty easily - they drop you off and go somehwere where there&#039;s plenty of room - say, a huge parking garage on the outskirts of town.  It comes back and picks you up when you&#039;re done.  The total footprint would be vastly small than many numerous lots and garages distributed everywhere.  You&#039;d need electric cars charged by nuclear/renewable power or something similar to prevent additional pollution.  But all things considered it&#039;s a vast improvement on the status quo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geez, #22, fascist much?  Self-driving cars would solve the problem pretty easily &#8211; they drop you off and go somehwere where there&#8217;s plenty of room &#8211; say, a huge parking garage on the outskirts of town.  It comes back and picks you up when you&#8217;re done.  The total footprint would be vastly small than many numerous lots and garages distributed everywhere.  You&#8217;d need electric cars charged by nuclear/renewable power or something similar to prevent additional pollution.  But all things considered it&#8217;s a vast improvement on the status quo.</p>
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		<title>By: Quasar9</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44553</link>
		<dc:creator>Quasar9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44553</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&quot;Parking is incredibly resource-intensive, but if your car can drive away and wait for you at some central location ...&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

At last trying to put thinking and technologyinto some &#039;practical&#039; use. But Why have the car wait for you at some central location.
If I could go down the pub, restaurant, club or airport, be dropped off by the car which either selects the nearest parking space (or returns home to my garage) and then comes and picks me up - Great! No need for the wife to go teetotal on a night out.

Mind you I don&#039;t think Taxi Drivers or Limo Drivers would be too happy. Yet another redundant career?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;Parking is incredibly resource-intensive, but if your car can drive away and wait for you at some central location &#8230;&#8221;</em></p>
<p>At last trying to put thinking and technologyinto some &#8216;practical&#8217; use. But Why have the car wait for you at some central location.<br />
If I could go down the pub, restaurant, club or airport, be dropped off by the car which either selects the nearest parking space (or returns home to my garage) and then comes and picks me up &#8211; Great! No need for the wife to go teetotal on a night out.</p>
<p>Mind you I don&#8217;t think Taxi Drivers or Limo Drivers would be too happy. Yet another redundant career?</p>
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		<title>By: tyler</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44552</link>
		<dc:creator>tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44552</guid>
		<description>nice Niven quote there above. Larry gets ignored a lot these days, partly for his highly unfashionable politics (with which I vehemently disagree). But when it comes down to the mark of a great futurist scifi writer - how many of the things he wrote about are now current real issues - I think he might have the highest score of any writer. The Gil the Arm stuff on organlegging is prescient beyond belief, and it&#039;s far from the only thing...

Biggest problem with automated driving is emergent mass behavior, of course. When you have large numbers of autonomous agents following simple rules en masse, big things happen, and not always what you&#039;d expect. It&#039;s true enough of human traffic patterns (seen the paper on shockwave modelling of traffic jams? great stuff) that when you turn the agents into robots, I would expect some rather....interesting behavior to emerge.

lol actually I just had an image of The Game of Life being recreated in traffic patterns as seen from overhead, with repeating structures cascading across the grid, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nice Niven quote there above. Larry gets ignored a lot these days, partly for his highly unfashionable politics (with which I vehemently disagree). But when it comes down to the mark of a great futurist scifi writer &#8211; how many of the things he wrote about are now current real issues &#8211; I think he might have the highest score of any writer. The Gil the Arm stuff on organlegging is prescient beyond belief, and it&#8217;s far from the only thing&#8230;</p>
<p>Biggest problem with automated driving is emergent mass behavior, of course. When you have large numbers of autonomous agents following simple rules en masse, big things happen, and not always what you&#8217;d expect. It&#8217;s true enough of human traffic patterns (seen the paper on shockwave modelling of traffic jams? great stuff) that when you turn the agents into robots, I would expect some rather&#8230;.interesting behavior to emerge.</p>
<p>lol actually I just had an image of The Game of Life being recreated in traffic patterns as seen from overhead, with repeating structures cascading across the grid, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: NeatoPrsn</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44551</link>
		<dc:creator>NeatoPrsn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44551</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t it kind of silly to assume this would be an over night thing?  Why wouldn&#039;t it come in the form of a feature of cars and then eventually be as common cruise control, radios, and air conditioning after that point it&#039;s just another hop, skip, and a jump to being legally required.

People wll get used to having it, use it liberally and we&#039;d figure out oh, we are safer in general this way.  Can you imagine the efficiency increase?

I&#039;m a car enthusiest and I too love sitting behind the wheel but don&#039;t tell me a majority of people would not be better off with automated cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it kind of silly to assume this would be an over night thing?  Why wouldn&#8217;t it come in the form of a feature of cars and then eventually be as common cruise control, radios, and air conditioning after that point it&#8217;s just another hop, skip, and a jump to being legally required.</p>
<p>People wll get used to having it, use it liberally and we&#8217;d figure out oh, we are safer in general this way.  Can you imagine the efficiency increase?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a car enthusiest and I too love sitting behind the wheel but don&#8217;t tell me a majority of people would not be better off with automated cars.</p>
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		<title>By: Sili</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-44550</link>
		<dc:creator>Sili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/14/self-driving-cars/#comment-44550</guid>
		<description>Nope. Never.

Drivers drive cars because they&#039;re crazy individualists. And of course we all know that most drivers consider themselves better than average.

They&#039;re never gonna give up control.

Sure it could easily be implemented, but the market won&#039;t be there for it.

At least not in the US as said by LabLemming. I can&#039;t even imagine it here in Denmark.

Sad. But true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope. Never.</p>
<p>Drivers drive cars because they&#8217;re crazy individualists. And of course we all know that most drivers consider themselves better than average.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re never gonna give up control.</p>
<p>Sure it could easily be implemented, but the market won&#8217;t be there for it.</p>
<p>At least not in the US as said by LabLemming. I can&#8217;t even imagine it here in Denmark.</p>
<p>Sad. But true.</p>
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