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	<title>Comments on: Delay for the LHC</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:26:47 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: LHC - Take 2 &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-51313</link>
		<dc:creator>LHC - Take 2 &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 18:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-51313</guid>
		<description>[...] has issued a press release detailing the extent of the damage from the September 19 incident, the plans for retrofitting the magnets to ensure it does not happen again, and a new schedule. The [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] has issued a press release detailing the extent of the damage from the September 19 incident, the plans for retrofitting the magnets to ensure it does not happen again, and a new schedule. The [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Harbles</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-44582</link>
		<dc:creator>Harbles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-44582</guid>
		<description>Oops.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://proj-obrs.web.cern.ch/proj-obrs/servlet/Redirect?p_query=Main%20Dipoles&amp;p_url=https://edms.cern.ch/file/455919/1/ElecInterconnections_Tock.pdf&amp;p_document_id=6639&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Here.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops.</p>
<p><a href="http://proj-obrs.web.cern.ch/proj-obrs/servlet/Redirect?p_query=Main%20Dipoles&amp;p_url=https://edms.cern.ch/file/455919/1/ElecInterconnections_Tock.pdf&amp;p_document_id=6639" rel="nofollow"> Here.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Harbles</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-44581</link>
		<dc:creator>Harbles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 18:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-44581</guid>
		<description>Eureka! I have found the &lt;a href=&quot;http://proj-obrs.web.cern.ch/proj-obrs/servlet/index?cookie=7907589&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;holy grail&lt;/a&gt; of electrical connections.

Over 10000 13KA connections alone!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eureka! I have found the <a href="http://proj-obrs.web.cern.ch/proj-obrs/servlet/index?cookie=7907589" rel="nofollow">holy grail</a> of electrical connections.</p>
<p>Over 10000 13KA connections alone!</p>
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		<title>By: Harbles</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-44580</link>
		<dc:creator>Harbles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 15:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-44580</guid>
		<description>The fundamental cause of the incident is the failure ( going open circuit ) of an electrical connection  between two superconducting magnets. I imagine the only thing left of said connection is that fine black soot that has contaminated the beam tubes in a large area either side of the failure. I have been trying to find out the details of how does one make connections between superconducting magnets or buss bars. Is the technique used in the LHC  an old tried and true method with a great deal of engineering experience behind it or a new innovative method that has less time in use. If it&#039;s an old method one can only hope that this particular incident was the result of improper installation and not a fundamental flaw with the connection method that is used some 6000 times  in the entire collider.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fundamental cause of the incident is the failure ( going open circuit ) of an electrical connection  between two superconducting magnets. I imagine the only thing left of said connection is that fine black soot that has contaminated the beam tubes in a large area either side of the failure. I have been trying to find out the details of how does one make connections between superconducting magnets or buss bars. Is the technique used in the LHC  an old tried and true method with a great deal of engineering experience behind it or a new innovative method that has less time in use. If it&#8217;s an old method one can only hope that this particular incident was the result of improper installation and not a fundamental flaw with the connection method that is used some 6000 times  in the entire collider.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-44579</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-44579</guid>
		<description>W00t! SUSY Higgs at the Tevatron in late &#039;09 early &#039;10 or before 15 fb-1 acquired! am I right kids?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>W00t! SUSY Higgs at the Tevatron in late &#8216;09 early &#8216;10 or before 15 fb-1 acquired! am I right kids?</p>
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		<title>By: jfb</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-44588</link>
		<dc:creator>jfb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-44588</guid>
		<description>Corrections to comment 17

I hadn&#039;t read the four page  report before writing, just the press release.

Pressure relief is via spring loaded disks in the short straight sections.

This sector was the only one which hadn&#039;t been taken to 5.5 TeV equivalent currents prior to the incident.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Corrections to comment 17</p>
<p>I hadn&#8217;t read the four page  report before writing, just the press release.</p>
<p>Pressure relief is via spring loaded disks in the short straight sections.</p>
<p>This sector was the only one which hadn&#8217;t been taken to 5.5 TeV equivalent currents prior to the incident.</p>
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		<title>By: jfb</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-44587</link>
		<dc:creator>jfb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-44587</guid>
		<description>http://ab-div.web.cern.ch/ab-div/Publications/LHC-DesignReport.html
is the LHC design report.  There are 1232 main dipoles.

Each of the eight 2K refrigerators at LHC is slightly larger than the previous record holder at Jefferson Lab.   If there were more connections from 2K to room temperature the refrigeration costs would go up substantially.  This is part of the risk-benefit tradeoff that was done during design.   There are eight ~3km cryo loops.

Burst disks for pressure relief are graphite machined so they will burst at a precise pressure differential.  When I was in the MRI magnet business two decades ago we specified the things to burst at 19-21 psi differential if memory serves.  Bigger burst disks mean bigger stainless pipes and flanges; these cost a lot more than the graphite disk.   Retrofitting bigger disks to existing magnets, if that is what&#039;s planned, will be touchy because once can&#039;t afford to get chips into the super-insulation.   One will have to warm up the magnets to increase the size of the disks because one has to bring the insulation vacuum space to atmosphere.

Again, one models the anticipated failure modes, determines the gaseous helium flow rates needed to keep over-pressure down, and sizes the pipes and burst disks with appropriate engineering safety factor.  Too big a disk and the cost is too high.   CERN had to borrow from their employees pension fund to get the funds needed to build LHC - the member states wouldn&#039;t increase their contributions enough to fund it otherwise.   Cpst containment was VERY important.

The 5 TeV energy for the initial run was chosen because all of the sectors exceeded the field needed for this energy in sector by sector tests.  All the magnets trained to fields above those needed for 7 TeV at acceptance, but some relaxed at room temperature or during installation.

I am sure CERN will work hard to determine what caused the interconnect to fail this time rather than during previous excursions to similar currents.

Using steel magnets one would need a ring ~150 km in circumference for this energy.   The LHC tunnel was dug for LEP so only the enlarged detector caverns were needed WRT civil construction.    Superconducting magnets are the only solution for hadron machines at these energies.

The next machine, if built, will be a linear collider.  The larger international effort plans to use superconducting RF cavities to accelerate electrons and positrons.  http://www.linearcollider.org/cms/?pid=0
The smaller effort, CLIC at CERN,  works with room temperature RF.   http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/188858/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://ab-div.web.cern.ch/ab-div/Publications/LHC-DesignReport.html" rel="nofollow">http://ab-div.web.cern.ch/ab-div/Publications/LHC-DesignReport.html</a><br />
is the LHC design report.  There are 1232 main dipoles.</p>
<p>Each of the eight 2K refrigerators at LHC is slightly larger than the previous record holder at Jefferson Lab.   If there were more connections from 2K to room temperature the refrigeration costs would go up substantially.  This is part of the risk-benefit tradeoff that was done during design.   There are eight ~3km cryo loops.</p>
<p>Burst disks for pressure relief are graphite machined so they will burst at a precise pressure differential.  When I was in the MRI magnet business two decades ago we specified the things to burst at 19-21 psi differential if memory serves.  Bigger burst disks mean bigger stainless pipes and flanges; these cost a lot more than the graphite disk.   Retrofitting bigger disks to existing magnets, if that is what&#8217;s planned, will be touchy because once can&#8217;t afford to get chips into the super-insulation.   One will have to warm up the magnets to increase the size of the disks because one has to bring the insulation vacuum space to atmosphere.</p>
<p>Again, one models the anticipated failure modes, determines the gaseous helium flow rates needed to keep over-pressure down, and sizes the pipes and burst disks with appropriate engineering safety factor.  Too big a disk and the cost is too high.   CERN had to borrow from their employees pension fund to get the funds needed to build LHC &#8211; the member states wouldn&#8217;t increase their contributions enough to fund it otherwise.   Cpst containment was VERY important.</p>
<p>The 5 TeV energy for the initial run was chosen because all of the sectors exceeded the field needed for this energy in sector by sector tests.  All the magnets trained to fields above those needed for 7 TeV at acceptance, but some relaxed at room temperature or during installation.</p>
<p>I am sure CERN will work hard to determine what caused the interconnect to fail this time rather than during previous excursions to similar currents.</p>
<p>Using steel magnets one would need a ring ~150 km in circumference for this energy.   The LHC tunnel was dug for LEP so only the enlarged detector caverns were needed WRT civil construction.    Superconducting magnets are the only solution for hadron machines at these energies.</p>
<p>The next machine, if built, will be a linear collider.  The larger international effort plans to use superconducting RF cavities to accelerate electrons and positrons.  <a href="http://www.linearcollider.org/cms/?pid=0" rel="nofollow">http://www.linearcollider.org/cms/?pid=0</a><br />
The smaller effort, CLIC at CERN,  works with room temperature RF.   <a href="http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/188858/" rel="nofollow">http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/188858/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Count Iblis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-44586</link>
		<dc:creator>Count Iblis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-44586</guid>
		<description>Did the physicists neglect volume 1 of the &quot;Book of Physics&quot;, see &lt;a href=&quot;http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0112031&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;end of page one and top of page 2 of this article?&lt;/a&gt; :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did the physicists neglect volume 1 of the &#8220;Book of Physics&#8221;, see <a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0112031" rel="nofollow">end of page one and top of page 2 of this article?</a> <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: none of the above</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-44578</link>
		<dc:creator>none of the above</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-44578</guid>
		<description>One shouldn&#039;t be too pessimistic. They have all the spares necessary to do the replacements, and 5 months to do them. They&#039;ve already shut down the North Area fixed target program so that they could do the projected maintenance on the injection chain starting two months early, with a view to moving the starting date for LHC running from June to April, next year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One shouldn&#8217;t be too pessimistic. They have all the spares necessary to do the replacements, and 5 months to do them. They&#8217;ve already shut down the North Area fixed target program so that they could do the projected maintenance on the injection chain starting two months early, with a view to moving the starting date for LHC running from June to April, next year.</p>
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		<title>By: ObsessiveMathsFreak</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/comment-page-1/#comment-44585</link>
		<dc:creator>ObsessiveMathsFreak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/10/16/delay-for-the-lhc/#comment-44585</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;ObsessiveMathsFreak, sure there’s an alternative: using weaker conventional magnets, paying more for electricity, and tripling or quadrupling the circumference of the LHC!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Expensive I know, but if managing superconducting magnets at this scale proves to be beyond our feasible capability, perhaps these measures should ultimately be considered when building the next big particle accelerator. Lost time costs money as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>ObsessiveMathsFreak, sure there’s an alternative: using weaker conventional magnets, paying more for electricity, and tripling or quadrupling the circumference of the LHC!</p></blockquote>
<p>Expensive I know, but if managing superconducting magnets at this scale proves to be beyond our feasible capability, perhaps these measures should ultimately be considered when building the next big particle accelerator. Lost time costs money as well.</p>
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