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	<title>Comments on: CDF Ghost Muons</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: New Physics?</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45335</link>
		<dc:creator>New Physics?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45335</guid>
		<description>[...] Physicist at the Fermilab Collider Detector (CDF) report multi-moun events. Until now, nobody knows, why CDF detected these ghost mouns - &#8220;it’s either an unaccounted-for background or it’s new physics&#8221;, as John a physicist wrote in his weblog. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Physicist at the Fermilab Collider Detector (CDF) report multi-moun events. Until now, nobody knows, why CDF detected these ghost mouns &#8211; &#8220;it’s either an unaccounted-for background or it’s new physics&#8221;, as John a physicist wrote in his weblog. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Hello world! &#171; How the World Works</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45336</link>
		<dc:creator>Hello world! &#171; How the World Works</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45336</guid>
		<description>[...] Here is a basic explanation of the results:CDF Ghost Muons [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Here is a basic explanation of the results:CDF Ghost Muons [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Chris Austin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45334</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 20:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45334</guid>
		<description>Hi John,

Thanks for the helpful explanations.  What is your opinion on Bob McElrath&#039;s suggestion above that the explanation will turn out to be unknown B-hadrons with anomalously long lifetimes, and do you have the necessary raw data that would be required to disentangle the contributions of different unknown B-hadrons, and analyse exclusive final states as he suggests?

Best regards,
Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>Thanks for the helpful explanations.  What is your opinion on Bob McElrath&#8217;s suggestion above that the explanation will turn out to be unknown B-hadrons with anomalously long lifetimes, and do you have the necessary raw data that would be required to disentangle the contributions of different unknown B-hadrons, and analyse exclusive final states as he suggests?</p>
<p>Best regards,<br />
Chris</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Maynard Handley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45343</link>
		<dc:creator>Maynard Handley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45343</guid>
		<description>&quot;Due to a subtlety in the weak interaction that we need not explore here, a b quark (or more properly speaking a B hadron) flying along can change spontaneously into its own antiparticle.&quot;

Can you clarify this statement?

Would you have a problem with the claim that the essential difference between a particle and an antiparticle is the sign of the rate of change with time. (So for an energy eigenstate, this rate of change, ie the frequency, is either positive or negative, giving us particle or anti-particle)? Or would you say such a characterization in fundamentally misguided?

If we assume this characterization is correct, is the point then that a B meson
- is not in fact an energy eigenstate AND
- unlike most &quot;simple&quot; non-eigenstates. if we were to plot &quot;phase&quot; (in some vague sense) against time, rather than seeing some variety of sinusoid like a beat pattern, the plot is best done showing a complex point against time, with the point moving first clockwise, then slowing down, stopping, moving anti-clockwise, then the whole thing reversing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Due to a subtlety in the weak interaction that we need not explore here, a b quark (or more properly speaking a B hadron) flying along can change spontaneously into its own antiparticle.&#8221;</p>
<p>Can you clarify this statement?</p>
<p>Would you have a problem with the claim that the essential difference between a particle and an antiparticle is the sign of the rate of change with time. (So for an energy eigenstate, this rate of change, ie the frequency, is either positive or negative, giving us particle or anti-particle)? Or would you say such a characterization in fundamentally misguided?</p>
<p>If we assume this characterization is correct, is the point then that a B meson<br />
- is not in fact an energy eigenstate AND<br />
- unlike most &#8220;simple&#8221; non-eigenstates. if we were to plot &#8220;phase&#8221; (in some vague sense) against time, rather than seeing some variety of sinusoid like a beat pattern, the plot is best done showing a complex point against time, with the point moving first clockwise, then slowing down, stopping, moving anti-clockwise, then the whole thing reversing?</p>
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		<title>By: Sili</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45337</link>
		<dc:creator>Sili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 21:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45337</guid>
		<description>What is it they say? &quot;New physics isn&#039;t hailed with a &#039;Heureka!&quot;, but by someone going &#039;Huh. That&#039;s odd.&#039;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is it they say? &#8220;New physics isn&#8217;t hailed with a &#8216;Heureka!&#8221;, but by someone going &#8216;Huh. That&#8217;s odd.&#8217;&#8221;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: News from the CDF and PAMELA experiments &#171; Theorema Egregium</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45338</link>
		<dc:creator>News from the CDF and PAMELA experiments &#171; Theorema Egregium</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45338</guid>
		<description>[...] See a new post over at Cosmic Variance by John Conway, another CDF [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] See a new post over at Cosmic Variance by John Conway, another CDF [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: a quantum diaries survivor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45345</link>
		<dc:creator>a quantum diaries survivor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45345</guid>
		<description>Hi optimistic,

a third of the collaboration objected about the publication process, the paper content, the personality of the main author, and the day of the week of the release.

The thing is, the main author is a brilliant physicist, with zero PR skills. He alienated most of his colleagues during 25 years of work in CDF.  This explains some of the reaction to his analysis.

The analysis itself is complicated, as John states from the outset above. It entails loosening the criteria of identification of muon candidates, which have a good reason to be there. But still, we need to understand our muon candidates even with loose cuts. This leads us to this sample, which is very hard to reconcile with SM sources. Many in CDF thought that we should keep to ourself our dirty laundry, others thought we should release that information.

Cheers,
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi optimistic,</p>
<p>a third of the collaboration objected about the publication process, the paper content, the personality of the main author, and the day of the week of the release.</p>
<p>The thing is, the main author is a brilliant physicist, with zero PR skills. He alienated most of his colleagues during 25 years of work in CDF.  This explains some of the reaction to his analysis.</p>
<p>The analysis itself is complicated, as John states from the outset above. It entails loosening the criteria of identification of muon candidates, which have a good reason to be there. But still, we need to understand our muon candidates even with loose cuts. This leads us to this sample, which is very hard to reconcile with SM sources. Many in CDF thought that we should keep to ourself our dirty laundry, others thought we should release that information.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45344</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 15:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45344</guid>
		<description>The paper by Arkani-Hamed &amp; Weiner makes these suggestions in figure 2.  If I am right these ideas of &quot;gauge-Moose&quot; are a sort of twisted SUSY with a chain of gauge fields on the winding loop around some space.  I&#039;d have to read this paper more fully to get a better idea of where this is heading.  Yet figure 2 does point to electrons as the lepton jet.  One might expect this do dominate over muon production.

This paper along with Sean&#039;s recent paper and with other conjectures and hypotheses on DM do hint that DM might in some way reflect a weakly interacting ghost world that couples to our &quot;gauge world&quot; by gravity and very weakly by other interactions.

Lawrence B. Crowell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The paper by Arkani-Hamed &amp; Weiner makes these suggestions in figure 2.  If I am right these ideas of &#8220;gauge-Moose&#8221; are a sort of twisted SUSY with a chain of gauge fields on the winding loop around some space.  I&#8217;d have to read this paper more fully to get a better idea of where this is heading.  Yet figure 2 does point to electrons as the lepton jet.  One might expect this do dominate over muon production.</p>
<p>This paper along with Sean&#8217;s recent paper and with other conjectures and hypotheses on DM do hint that DM might in some way reflect a weakly interacting ghost world that couples to our &#8220;gauge world&#8221; by gravity and very weakly by other interactions.</p>
<p>Lawrence B. Crowell</p>
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		<title>By: Neal Weiner</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45346</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45346</guid>
		<description>Hi Bob
Our statement about lepton jets wasn&#039;t just about production of the vector itself, because typical decays through the G_dark sector don&#039;t go right to the vector, but proceed through some intermediate states, hence the n&gt;=2 rather than n=2 definition of the lepton jets...

That said, getting this rate would be a challenge!

Neal</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bob<br />
Our statement about lepton jets wasn&#8217;t just about production of the vector itself, because typical decays through the G_dark sector don&#8217;t go right to the vector, but proceed through some intermediate states, hence the n&gt;=2 rather than n=2 definition of the lepton jets&#8230;</p>
<p>That said, getting this rate would be a challenge!</p>
<p>Neal</p>
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		<title>By: Bob McElrath</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45351</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob McElrath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 08:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45351</guid>
		<description>The model by Arkani-Hamed and Weiner absolutely cannot be responsible for these muons.  Their light boson would be extremely narrow, and would show up in an opposite sign dilepton plot quite clearly (just as the J/Psi does in at least one of the plots).

I think the answer is clear: some currently unknown B-baryon or B-meson (or maybe several) has an anomalously large lifetime.  The lifetime is only a factor of 10 over the B meson, so a B-hadron is an obvious choice.  These states are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; in Pythia and will not show up in your MC.  Most of the B-baryons are unknown.  These things definitely are in the sample, the only question is whether there is anything in there that&#039;s not B-hadrons, and why does the state have an anomalously long lifetime.

A more specific analysis need to be done looking at exclusive final states to identify the B-hadrons.  The paper has a lot of plots which clearly mix a lot of different signals coming from different mesons, so it&#039;s extremely hard to interpret them.  The only thing that&#039;s clear is that there is no new state with a 2-body dimuon decay (which B-decays aren&#039;t anyway).  But discovering a pile of B-hadrons not in the PDG is exciting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The model by Arkani-Hamed and Weiner absolutely cannot be responsible for these muons.  Their light boson would be extremely narrow, and would show up in an opposite sign dilepton plot quite clearly (just as the J/Psi does in at least one of the plots).</p>
<p>I think the answer is clear: some currently unknown B-baryon or B-meson (or maybe several) has an anomalously large lifetime.  The lifetime is only a factor of 10 over the B meson, so a B-hadron is an obvious choice.  These states are <i>not</i> in Pythia and will not show up in your MC.  Most of the B-baryons are unknown.  These things definitely are in the sample, the only question is whether there is anything in there that&#8217;s not B-hadrons, and why does the state have an anomalously long lifetime.</p>
<p>A more specific analysis need to be done looking at exclusive final states to identify the B-hadrons.  The paper has a lot of plots which clearly mix a lot of different signals coming from different mesons, so it&#8217;s extremely hard to interpret them.  The only thing that&#8217;s clear is that there is no new state with a 2-body dimuon decay (which B-decays aren&#8217;t anyway).  But discovering a pile of B-hadrons not in the PDG is exciting!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45350</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 04:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45350</guid>
		<description>Chris W. - thanks for pointing out the typo.

Carl, we&#039;ll look at electrons soon.  Electrons in jets are a bitch to reconstruct, though.  Muons are much easier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris W. &#8211; thanks for pointing out the typo.</p>
<p>Carl, we&#8217;ll look at electrons soon.  Electrons in jets are a bitch to reconstruct, though.  Muons are much easier.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Brannen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45349</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Brannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 00:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45349</guid>
		<description>What I think is odd about the paper is that they never mention the word &quot;electron&quot; and only talk about their electromagnetic calorimeter when placing its position relative to the muon detectors.

One would certain expect muon production to have at least some electrons, but more importantly, the cosmic ray people have been talking about Centauros (anti-Centauros) for years. In those events, a single incoming particle creates a shower of hadrons (electromagnetic) stuff which is out of balance with the usual expectation of pi+, pi- and pi0 in roughly equal abundance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I think is odd about the paper is that they never mention the word &#8220;electron&#8221; and only talk about their electromagnetic calorimeter when placing its position relative to the muon detectors.</p>
<p>One would certain expect muon production to have at least some electrons, but more importantly, the cosmic ray people have been talking about Centauros (anti-Centauros) for years. In those events, a single incoming particle creates a shower of hadrons (electromagnetic) stuff which is out of balance with the usual expectation of pi+, pi- and pi0 in roughly equal abundance.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Chris W.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45348</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 00:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45348</guid>
		<description>John,

This sentence didn&#039;t quite parse:

&lt;em&gt;In the analysis presented in the paper, the authors (a group from Frascati/Harvard led by Paolo Giromini) have ostensibly resolved a long standing disagreement between the &lt;b&gt;results&lt;/b&gt; two different methods to measure the b pair cross section.&lt;/em&gt;

Is &quot;results&quot; a stray word that should have been removed during editing?

Somehow it&#039;s appropriate that this work should be drawing attention right around Halloween.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>This sentence didn&#8217;t quite parse:</p>
<p><em>In the analysis presented in the paper, the authors (a group from Frascati/Harvard led by Paolo Giromini) have ostensibly resolved a long standing disagreement between the <b>results</b> two different methods to measure the b pair cross section.</em></p>
<p>Is &#8220;results&#8221; a stray word that should have been removed during editing?</p>
<p>Somehow it&#8217;s appropriate that this work should be drawing attention right around Halloween.  <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: A Student</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45339</link>
		<dc:creator>A Student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 23:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45339</guid>
		<description>John

Thanks for the additional info</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John</p>
<p>Thanks for the additional info</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: optimistic</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45347</link>
		<dc:creator>optimistic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 21:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45347</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s this? A third of CDF physicists refused to be on the author list? Tommaso, can you be more specific about what they objected to in it? They&#039;ll be gutted if it turns out to be something real, so they must have had strong reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s this? A third of CDF physicists refused to be on the author list? Tommaso, can you be more specific about what they objected to in it? They&#8217;ll be gutted if it turns out to be something real, so they must have had strong reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: CDF publishes multi-muons!!!! &#171; A Quantum Diaries Survivor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45342</link>
		<dc:creator>CDF publishes multi-muons!!!! &#171; A Quantum Diaries Survivor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 19:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45342</guid>
		<description>[...] John, a fellow collaborator in CDF and one very skilled physicist, explains the result at  cosmic variance. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)The fascinating b quark cross [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] John, a fellow collaborator in CDF and one very skilled physicist, explains the result at  cosmic variance. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)The fascinating b quark cross [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: a quantum diaries survivor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45341</link>
		<dc:creator>a quantum diaries survivor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 19:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45341</guid>
		<description>Hi John,

nice post. I do think this is a very weird background, but indeed, the 1% or so chance that it instead is new physics (my very own gut feeling) makes this a very exciting thing.

I am sorry that 33% of our colleagues chose to not sign this paper. I think it was due to dissatisfaction with the publication procedure rather than with the content of the paper. I do not know about you, but I have the feeling that many of your and my colleagues in CDF did not read the paper and the documentation closely enough. For me, the fact that scrupolous and knowledgeable physicists such as Kevin, Doug, and others have found no clear problem with the results is a guarantee that it deserved to be published.

So, let&#039;s look forward to very interesting times.

Cheers,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>nice post. I do think this is a very weird background, but indeed, the 1% or so chance that it instead is new physics (my very own gut feeling) makes this a very exciting thing.</p>
<p>I am sorry that 33% of our colleagues chose to not sign this paper. I think it was due to dissatisfaction with the publication procedure rather than with the content of the paper. I do not know about you, but I have the feeling that many of your and my colleagues in CDF did not read the paper and the documentation closely enough. For me, the fact that scrupolous and knowledgeable physicists such as Kevin, Doug, and others have found no clear problem with the results is a guarantee that it deserved to be published.</p>
<p>So, let&#8217;s look forward to very interesting times.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
T.</p>
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		<title>By: Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Discovery of a New Particle?</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/comment-page-1/#comment-45340</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Discovery of a New Particle?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 19:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/02/cdf-ghost-muons/#comment-45340</guid>
		<description>[...] Update: Another CDF blogger heard from: John Conway. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Update: Another CDF blogger heard from: John Conway. [...]</p>
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