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	<title>Comments on: Moral Authority</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: The Almighty Bob</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-48397</link>
		<dc:creator>The Almighty Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-48397</guid>
		<description>Squirrel: well done.
(&quot;,)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Squirrel: well done.<br />
(&#8220;,)</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Carroll has sold out to the Discovery man but &#171; My agnostic views &#38; images I like</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-48292</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Carroll has sold out to the Discovery man but &#171; My agnostic views &#38; images I like</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-48292</guid>
		<description>[...] man&#160;but November 18, 2008 &#8212; BobG in Vancouver   he continues to write great stuff. Check out his latest about Moral Authority&#8217;s demise in Ireland (and elsewhere for that matter)!   Posted in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] man&nbsp;but November 18, 2008 &#8212; BobG in Vancouver   he continues to write great stuff. Check out his latest about Moral Authority&#8217;s demise in Ireland (and elsewhere for that matter)!   Posted in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Squirrel Nutkin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47921</link>
		<dc:creator>Squirrel Nutkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47921</guid>
		<description>Any student of Irish literature will warn Lab Lemming of the dangers of bicycles: you may &quot;choose&quot; the bicycle, but, as De Selbey has shown, it only takes its regular use for bicycle and rider to become irrevocably intermingled!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any student of Irish literature will warn Lab Lemming of the dangers of bicycles: you may &#8220;choose&#8221; the bicycle, but, as De Selbey has shown, it only takes its regular use for bicycle and rider to become irrevocably intermingled!</p>
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		<title>By: The atheists&#8217; story &#171; The Liquid Thinker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47657</link>
		<dc:creator>The atheists&#8217; story &#171; The Liquid Thinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 01:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47657</guid>
		<description>[...]  There was a thoughtful essay over at Cosmic Variance concerning the Church&#8217;s loss of moral authority being a factor in the decline of influence of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. The argument [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  There was a thoughtful essay over at Cosmic Variance concerning the Church&#8217;s loss of moral authority being a factor in the decline of influence of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. The argument [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sedigh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47361</link>
		<dc:creator>Sedigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 04:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47361</guid>
		<description>You are amazing Sean!
I like you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are amazing Sean!<br />
I like you!</p>
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		<title>By: Sili</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47258</link>
		<dc:creator>Sili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47258</guid>
		<description>I thought the whole deal about the Carthagenians being into human sacrifice big time was largely Roman propaganda. By. History. Winners. The. Is. Written. Jumble as appropriate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the whole deal about the Carthagenians being into human sacrifice big time was largely Roman propaganda. By. History. Winners. The. Is. Written. Jumble as appropriate.</p>
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		<title>By: kletter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47083</link>
		<dc:creator>kletter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47083</guid>
		<description>Lab lemming - by taking each one out for a ride?

It would be interesting to see if the following could ever be taught in schools, or what the response would be:

&quot;Early humans were faced with numerous phenomena they did not understand: thunder, lightning, diseases, storms, wildfires, volcanoes, earthquakes, meteors, and so on.  In an effort to understand and define their surroundings, they created human-like gods to rule over these forces.

Early human society was probably much like modern chimpanzee society, with a typical alpha-male tribal structure.  An angry alpha male was probably a common occurrence, and there are clear rituals for showing submission - the same is true for any social mammalian species, from zebras to wolf packs.  Thus, early humans tried to placate these natural forces by offering prayers and gifts to them, and this is probably how the first notion of gods arose.

Other natural forces had a profoundly beneficial nature - rain made the grass grow, and food became abundant.  These forces were ones that early humans would have wanted to encourage.  These good gods and goddesses brought gifts to humanity, but other, more evil ones brought suffering.  

Many different belief systems along these lines (good/evil) came into being as human society developed, and came to be a key part of the cohesiveness of social groups.  In many cases, the professions of doctor and priest would overlap; in others the professions of king and priest would become the same.  This went on for thousands of years, with varying results.

This really began to change with the rise of scientific explanations for natural phenomenon.  First, the basic rules of motion on earth were shown to apply to the heavens as well, and then the universe began to get bigger and bigger, until in the early 20th century Hubble discovered the red-shifted galaxies and the expanding universe.

At the same time, there was a steady increase in knowledge of biological evolution and biochemistry.  The unity of all life on earth became clear, as well as the descent of modern species from common ancestors.  This all brought on a huge shift in religious attitudes, and a great loss in power for the religious authorities.

As psychology developed, the deadly sins - pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed, sloth - were no longer viewed as the temptations of Satan, but rather as hangovers from our animal past - primitive emotional states that could be controlled by the well-adjusted adult human mind, in the rational secularist viewpoint.  That viewpoint can easily become its own religion, however, with scientists as the new high priests... but science has built-in defense mechanisms against authoritarian takeover.

The two big problems for traditional religion have been the sheer size of the Universe and the knowledge of our animalistic predecessors. This has led to a new religious interest in Very Big Concepts, such as &quot;the Universe as God&quot; and so on.  My own favorite religious take is that God, bored with strictly deterministic universes, decided to create one that would be interesting yet quite unpredictable - thus, quantum mechanics and chaos.  

So, that&#039;s what science has done - relegated God to the outer reaches of cosmology, where He or She or It may be lurking quietly, just out of sight.  For example, there is no more Vital Essence theory of living systems, in which life can only arise by a divine intervention (thus, no spontaneous generation is allowed).  

However, when it comes to social norms and acceptable behavior, it seems that by and large both religious and secular philosophies come to the same basic conclusions about what is moral and ethical and what is not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lab lemming &#8211; by taking each one out for a ride?</p>
<p>It would be interesting to see if the following could ever be taught in schools, or what the response would be:</p>
<p>&#8220;Early humans were faced with numerous phenomena they did not understand: thunder, lightning, diseases, storms, wildfires, volcanoes, earthquakes, meteors, and so on.  In an effort to understand and define their surroundings, they created human-like gods to rule over these forces.</p>
<p>Early human society was probably much like modern chimpanzee society, with a typical alpha-male tribal structure.  An angry alpha male was probably a common occurrence, and there are clear rituals for showing submission &#8211; the same is true for any social mammalian species, from zebras to wolf packs.  Thus, early humans tried to placate these natural forces by offering prayers and gifts to them, and this is probably how the first notion of gods arose.</p>
<p>Other natural forces had a profoundly beneficial nature &#8211; rain made the grass grow, and food became abundant.  These forces were ones that early humans would have wanted to encourage.  These good gods and goddesses brought gifts to humanity, but other, more evil ones brought suffering.  </p>
<p>Many different belief systems along these lines (good/evil) came into being as human society developed, and came to be a key part of the cohesiveness of social groups.  In many cases, the professions of doctor and priest would overlap; in others the professions of king and priest would become the same.  This went on for thousands of years, with varying results.</p>
<p>This really began to change with the rise of scientific explanations for natural phenomenon.  First, the basic rules of motion on earth were shown to apply to the heavens as well, and then the universe began to get bigger and bigger, until in the early 20th century Hubble discovered the red-shifted galaxies and the expanding universe.</p>
<p>At the same time, there was a steady increase in knowledge of biological evolution and biochemistry.  The unity of all life on earth became clear, as well as the descent of modern species from common ancestors.  This all brought on a huge shift in religious attitudes, and a great loss in power for the religious authorities.</p>
<p>As psychology developed, the deadly sins &#8211; pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed, sloth &#8211; were no longer viewed as the temptations of Satan, but rather as hangovers from our animal past &#8211; primitive emotional states that could be controlled by the well-adjusted adult human mind, in the rational secularist viewpoint.  That viewpoint can easily become its own religion, however, with scientists as the new high priests&#8230; but science has built-in defense mechanisms against authoritarian takeover.</p>
<p>The two big problems for traditional religion have been the sheer size of the Universe and the knowledge of our animalistic predecessors. This has led to a new religious interest in Very Big Concepts, such as &#8220;the Universe as God&#8221; and so on.  My own favorite religious take is that God, bored with strictly deterministic universes, decided to create one that would be interesting yet quite unpredictable &#8211; thus, quantum mechanics and chaos.  </p>
<p>So, that&#8217;s what science has done &#8211; relegated God to the outer reaches of cosmology, where He or She or It may be lurking quietly, just out of sight.  For example, there is no more Vital Essence theory of living systems, in which life can only arise by a divine intervention (thus, no spontaneous generation is allowed).  </p>
<p>However, when it comes to social norms and acceptable behavior, it seems that by and large both religious and secular philosophies come to the same basic conclusions about what is moral and ethical and what is not.</p>
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		<title>By: Lab Lemming</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47075</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 04:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47075</guid>
		<description>Is there any reason that one should not choose one&#039;s religion in the same way one chooses a bicycle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any reason that one should not choose one&#8217;s religion in the same way one chooses a bicycle?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Fitzsimons</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47062</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Fitzsimons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 01:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47062</guid>
		<description>UCD my alma mater. It&#039;s really good to see that the L&amp;H is keeping the debates interesting.

I have to ask, though, any of the taxi drivers grill you on &quot;Stephen Hawkins&quot;? Seems about half the taxi drivers I meet in Dublin seem to have recently watched something about black holes on TV. I have had some pretty strange conversations on the way back from a night out. One guy seemed to be particularly up on Schroedinger&#039;s sex life. Weird.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UCD my alma mater. It&#8217;s really good to see that the L&#038;H is keeping the debates interesting.</p>
<p>I have to ask, though, any of the taxi drivers grill you on &#8220;Stephen Hawkins&#8221;? Seems about half the taxi drivers I meet in Dublin seem to have recently watched something about black holes on TV. I have had some pretty strange conversations on the way back from a night out. One guy seemed to be particularly up on Schroedinger&#8217;s sex life. Weird.</p>
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		<title>By: Odani of The Faith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47032</link>
		<dc:creator>Odani of The Faith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47032</guid>
		<description>This news is a bit shocking to the Faithful--Ireland has long been a bulwark against the DFHs, physicists,  and other individuals doomed to multiple  eternities in hellfire.   I&#039;m surprised Sean could obtain a visa.   Still, it&#039;s only one small island, and the Kingdom of the Faith is large and ever-increasing (or so my tutors tell me); the tide may ebb but it also flows--during the same period Ireland is said to have gone wayward, we have neatly infiltrated every government office in the U.S!  So, Irish taxi-drivers may not be Saved, but we have laid the groundwork for Universal Salvation in the most influential country in the merely corporeal plane of existence.  It&#039;s a fair trade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This news is a bit shocking to the Faithful&#8211;Ireland has long been a bulwark against the DFHs, physicists,  and other individuals doomed to multiple  eternities in hellfire.   I&#8217;m surprised Sean could obtain a visa.   Still, it&#8217;s only one small island, and the Kingdom of the Faith is large and ever-increasing (or so my tutors tell me); the tide may ebb but it also flows&#8211;during the same period Ireland is said to have gone wayward, we have neatly infiltrated every government office in the U.S!  So, Irish taxi-drivers may not be Saved, but we have laid the groundwork for Universal Salvation in the most influential country in the merely corporeal plane of existence.  It&#8217;s a fair trade.</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence Crowell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47026</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence Crowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47026</guid>
		<description>The early Church co-opted many pagan Earth-mother or goddess figures.  These were encapsulated into the Virgin Mary, who became for the ancient Kelts the goddess Mahbe.  

The Church is losing its authority in Ireland just as the nation moves away from being the third world of western Europe.  While the Irish Catholics might have hated the British in the island, their presence was a boon for the Catholic Church.  The Brits kept people in ignorance and poverty, and consequently gullible to the priest&#039;s mumbo jumbo. As a rule once a people become reasonably educated on average adherence to religion falters.  This clearly has not fallen on deaf ears of the religious right in the US, for one of their big points of attack are school boards to bring in faux science education called creationism.


Lawrence B. Crowell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The early Church co-opted many pagan Earth-mother or goddess figures.  These were encapsulated into the Virgin Mary, who became for the ancient Kelts the goddess Mahbe.  </p>
<p>The Church is losing its authority in Ireland just as the nation moves away from being the third world of western Europe.  While the Irish Catholics might have hated the British in the island, their presence was a boon for the Catholic Church.  The Brits kept people in ignorance and poverty, and consequently gullible to the priest&#8217;s mumbo jumbo. As a rule once a people become reasonably educated on average adherence to religion falters.  This clearly has not fallen on deaf ears of the religious right in the US, for one of their big points of attack are school boards to bring in faux science education called creationism.</p>
<p>Lawrence B. Crowell</p>
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		<title>By: Erik</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47021</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47021</guid>
		<description>This is why I agree with Dennette on teaching world religions heavily at a very young age. The only minor detail is that I think the naturalist perspective needs to be explicitly added. If we can tell the story of naturalism to our children at an early enough age then they will absorb it (ideally) at the same time as religion. I think even as early has 1st or 2nd grade, the kids can tell which side makes more sense. If we focus on this one path, I think that, in time, everything will come together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why I agree with Dennette on teaching world religions heavily at a very young age. The only minor detail is that I think the naturalist perspective needs to be explicitly added. If we can tell the story of naturalism to our children at an early enough age then they will absorb it (ideally) at the same time as religion. I think even as early has 1st or 2nd grade, the kids can tell which side makes more sense. If we focus on this one path, I think that, in time, everything will come together.</p>
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		<title>By: changcho</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47018</link>
		<dc:creator>changcho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47018</guid>
		<description>What an interesting cab ride!   A couple of points: by coincidence, my folks are vacationing in Ireland this week (Dublin and Killarney if I recall correctly).  As far as the existence of god goes, well, I don&#039;t think he exists.  Speaking of my folks, and like Jason H., I was also raised entirely without religion.

&quot;More often, they believe in God because it serves a purpose in their lives, offering purpose and meaning and structure and guidance that is otherwise hard to come by.&quot;

In my experience (admittedly anecdotal), it seems to me most people believe  because their parents believe (starting in childhood, obviously).

Great post, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an interesting cab ride!   A couple of points: by coincidence, my folks are vacationing in Ireland this week (Dublin and Killarney if I recall correctly).  As far as the existence of god goes, well, I don&#8217;t think he exists.  Speaking of my folks, and like Jason H., I was also raised entirely without religion.</p>
<p>&#8220;More often, they believe in God because it serves a purpose in their lives, offering purpose and meaning and structure and guidance that is otherwise hard to come by.&#8221;</p>
<p>In my experience (admittedly anecdotal), it seems to me most people believe  because their parents believe (starting in childhood, obviously).</p>
<p>Great post, thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47016</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47016</guid>
		<description>is there anyway to post the name of the author at the top of each blog post, rather than the bottom?  knowing who wrote each post provides context....i&#039;m lost without it, and find myself scrolling down to the bottom of each post before actually reading it.  semi-annoying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is there anyway to post the name of the author at the top of each blog post, rather than the bottom?  knowing who wrote each post provides context&#8230;.i&#8217;m lost without it, and find myself scrolling down to the bottom of each post before actually reading it.  semi-annoying.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47009</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47009</guid>
		<description>Stephen, not all of our cab rides while in Dublin were quite so educational.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, not all of our cab rides while in Dublin were quite so educational.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Heldenbrand</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-47002</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Heldenbrand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-47002</guid>
		<description>Religion and the concept of God provides people with the comfort of a &#039;perfect father figure&#039; in an era where a lot of our families are breaking down.  Most can&#039;t handle the simple logic and evidence, considering it to be too cold or too far removed from emotion.  I actually believe the opposite, that I find the growing mysteries of our universe to be far more interesting than any tale or fable found in the book.  Colliding galaxies, super massive blackholes, the search for other planets, even investigating Mars and Titan for life in our own backyard.  

It does not provide any moral compass, then again, I was raised without religion entirely.  I think I turned out pretty okay in terms of morality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religion and the concept of God provides people with the comfort of a &#8216;perfect father figure&#8217; in an era where a lot of our families are breaking down.  Most can&#8217;t handle the simple logic and evidence, considering it to be too cold or too far removed from emotion.  I actually believe the opposite, that I find the growing mysteries of our universe to be far more interesting than any tale or fable found in the book.  Colliding galaxies, super massive blackholes, the search for other planets, even investigating Mars and Titan for life in our own backyard.  </p>
<p>It does not provide any moral compass, then again, I was raised without religion entirely.  I think I turned out pretty okay in terms of morality.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Cass</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-46998</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Cass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-46998</guid>
		<description>Good God -- being Dublin born and bred (well, technically, Tallaght, but only a fellow Dub would appreciate the distinction) I can tell you now, your driver was unusually erudite. Not that Dublin cabbies aren&#039;t chatty or intelligent or don&#039;t have opinions, but they are rarely so well grounded in historical details. 

I should point out though that some contraception was technically legal in Ireland before 1979, but only for married people for &quot;family planning&quot; purposes. It remained a gray area for decades, and many organizations such as the Irish Family Planning Association openly flouted the law. Still, the purchase of condoms over the counter, e.g. from vending machines remained illegal, along with other contraceptive restrictions, until 1993(!) Certainly, that the church&#039;s influence had already begun to lessen on people&#039;s family planning planning decisions was evident by the time of the Pope&#039;s visit in 1979 (which I remember well despite being only 6, because my father was in charge of the satellite TV transmissions, a big deal at the time): when my parents were born in the 1940&#039;s family sizes of 8 - 12 were common. By the 1960s and 1970s, when I and my siblings were born, many family sizes had &quot;magically&quot; dropped to 4 - 6. The revelations of abuse by priests, etc., didn&#039;t surface until the 1990&#039;s, well after Ireland had already embarked on a secular course. (For example, my mother refused to be &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churching_of_women&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;churched&lt;/a&gt; in the 1960s after the birth of my older siblings, because of the implication that woman was somehow unclean after childbirth.) There were also some hard fought referendums on divorce and abortion a few years on either side of the 1990 mark that also had an impact, in which the church was perceived by some to be uncompassionate towards victims of spousal abuse or incest. Similarly, anti-homosexuality laws were dismantled (with out much fuss in the end) after years of lobbying by people like the Jocyean scholar and senator David Norris, who was voted in as the first openly gay person to be elected to office in Ireland in 1987, albeit to a university seat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good God &#8212; being Dublin born and bred (well, technically, Tallaght, but only a fellow Dub would appreciate the distinction) I can tell you now, your driver was unusually erudite. Not that Dublin cabbies aren&#8217;t chatty or intelligent or don&#8217;t have opinions, but they are rarely so well grounded in historical details. </p>
<p>I should point out though that some contraception was technically legal in Ireland before 1979, but only for married people for &#8220;family planning&#8221; purposes. It remained a gray area for decades, and many organizations such as the Irish Family Planning Association openly flouted the law. Still, the purchase of condoms over the counter, e.g. from vending machines remained illegal, along with other contraceptive restrictions, until 1993(!) Certainly, that the church&#8217;s influence had already begun to lessen on people&#8217;s family planning planning decisions was evident by the time of the Pope&#8217;s visit in 1979 (which I remember well despite being only 6, because my father was in charge of the satellite TV transmissions, a big deal at the time): when my parents were born in the 1940&#8242;s family sizes of 8 &#8211; 12 were common. By the 1960s and 1970s, when I and my siblings were born, many family sizes had &#8220;magically&#8221; dropped to 4 &#8211; 6. The revelations of abuse by priests, etc., didn&#8217;t surface until the 1990&#8242;s, well after Ireland had already embarked on a secular course. (For example, my mother refused to be <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churching_of_women" rel="nofollow">churched</a> in the 1960s after the birth of my older siblings, because of the implication that woman was somehow unclean after childbirth.) There were also some hard fought referendums on divorce and abortion a few years on either side of the 1990 mark that also had an impact, in which the church was perceived by some to be uncompassionate towards victims of spousal abuse or incest. Similarly, anti-homosexuality laws were dismantled (with out much fuss in the end) after years of lobbying by people like the Jocyean scholar and senator David Norris, who was voted in as the first openly gay person to be elected to office in Ireland in 1987, albeit to a university seat.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Harrison</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-46997</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-46997</guid>
		<description>Surely the Irish economic boom of the last couple of decades had a lot to do with the decline in religious faith. It will be interesting to see whether the return of hard times will have the opposite effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely the Irish economic boom of the last couple of decades had a lot to do with the decline in religious faith. It will be interesting to see whether the return of hard times will have the opposite effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-46990</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-46990</guid>
		<description>Well, I loved this part where you wrote &quot;For most believers, their belief is not a logical conclusion, it’s a mode of living. And the erosion of that belief will typically not, for better or for worse, be accomplished by the presentation and examination of evidence; it will be through telling a better story than the one told by religion. One that helps make sense of the world, provides a template for a fulfilling life, explains the difference between right and wrong, and brings meaning to people’s experiences&quot;.


The vast majority of people around the world are not aware of the roman empires history, nor the Byzantine empires history, protestant reform,  etc. The average person is not aware of terms, such as, secularism. They do not think about the significance of morals, nor question their roots. Philosophy is out of the question. People generally have the idea that if the were no religion at all, there would be chaos... People need a purpose to live their lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I loved this part where you wrote &#8220;For most believers, their belief is not a logical conclusion, it’s a mode of living. And the erosion of that belief will typically not, for better or for worse, be accomplished by the presentation and examination of evidence; it will be through telling a better story than the one told by religion. One that helps make sense of the world, provides a template for a fulfilling life, explains the difference between right and wrong, and brings meaning to people’s experiences&#8221;.</p>
<p>The vast majority of people around the world are not aware of the roman empires history, nor the Byzantine empires history, protestant reform,  etc. The average person is not aware of terms, such as, secularism. They do not think about the significance of morals, nor question their roots. Philosophy is out of the question. People generally have the idea that if the were no religion at all, there would be chaos&#8230; People need a purpose to live their lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Andre</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-46985</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/13/moral-authority/#comment-46985</guid>
		<description>Great post!

I totally agree with the &quot;better story&quot; theory, if I may call it so. That&#039;s why I believe books like Sagan&#039;s &quot;Cosmos&quot; or Dawkins&#039; &quot;Unweaving the rainbow&quot; are probably more efficient to the cause of secularism than &quot;Demon haunted world&quot; or &quot;The god delusion&quot;. They lure people without making them feel attacked.

As for myself, I teach astronomy and put my telescope on busy sidewalks to show people how wonderful science can be. It works!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post!</p>
<p>I totally agree with the &#8220;better story&#8221; theory, if I may call it so. That&#8217;s why I believe books like Sagan&#8217;s &#8220;Cosmos&#8221; or Dawkins&#8217; &#8220;Unweaving the rainbow&#8221; are probably more efficient to the cause of secularism than &#8220;Demon haunted world&#8221; or &#8220;The god delusion&#8221;. They lure people without making them feel attacked.</p>
<p>As for myself, I teach astronomy and put my telescope on busy sidewalks to show people how wonderful science can be. It works!</p>
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