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	<title>Comments on: Something&#8217;s in the air</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:00:03 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Looking for Dark Matter in All the Wrong Places &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-62521</link>
		<dc:creator>Looking for Dark Matter in All the Wrong Places &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-62521</guid>
		<description>[...] mass of the proton.) The impression is given that this is a brand-new result casting doubt on the earlier claims that PAMELA might have detected evidence for dark matter; that&#8217;s not really a correct [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] mass of the proton.) The impression is given that this is a brand-new result casting doubt on the earlier claims that PAMELA might have detected evidence for dark matter; that&#8217;s not really a correct [...]</p>
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		<title>By: All work and no play&#8230; &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-61996</link>
		<dc:creator>All work and no play&#8230; &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-61996</guid>
		<description>[...] hours later I was back in the conference room, learning more about the latest results on dark matter detection. A good [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] hours later I was back in the conference room, learning more about the latest results on dark matter detection. A good [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Accelerator &#8220;vs.&#8221; Mr. Telescope &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-51158</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Accelerator &#8220;vs.&#8221; Mr. Telescope &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 17:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-51158</guid>
		<description>[...] driven almost exclusively by results reported by cosmological observations, in this case from the PAMELA experiment (I first mentioned this in my post on the ICHEP conference earlier this year). But the connections [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] driven almost exclusively by results reported by cosmological observations, in this case from the PAMELA experiment (I first mentioned this in my post on the ICHEP conference earlier this year). But the connections [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: A Way To Detect Dark Stuff? &#171; IBY&#8217;s Island Universe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-49913</link>
		<dc:creator>A Way To Detect Dark Stuff? &#171; IBY&#8217;s Island Universe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-49913</guid>
		<description>[...] Cosmic Variance has an article about how annihilating dark stuff may enable scientists to detect it. There is a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Cosmic Variance has an article about how annihilating dark stuff may enable scientists to detect it. There is a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-49721</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 01:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-49721</guid>
		<description>Jason, they argue that&#039;s a possibility, but they also concentrate on enhanced cross sections (boost factors) from new forces with an average DM density of ~ 0.35 GeV/cm^3 I think, which is what comes out from relic abundance. So that&#039;s my puzzle, how come we get DM annhiliation if we are no living in any special place!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, they argue that&#8217;s a possibility, but they also concentrate on enhanced cross sections (boost factors) from new forces with an average DM density of ~ 0.35 GeV/cm^3 I think, which is what comes out from relic abundance. So that&#8217;s my puzzle, how come we get DM annhiliation if we are no living in any special place!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-49644</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-49644</guid>
		<description>Anon,

Well, I think the only way to explain an anomalously large annihilation signal from dark matter is to assume that we actually just happen to be in an unusual region of the galaxy with a good amount of extra dark matter nearby.  So I think the more likely explanation is that any such signals are just due to some poorly-understood astrophysical process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon,</p>
<p>Well, I think the only way to explain an anomalously large annihilation signal from dark matter is to assume that we actually just happen to be in an unusual region of the galaxy with a good amount of extra dark matter nearby.  So I think the more likely explanation is that any such signals are just due to some poorly-understood astrophysical process.</p>
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		<title>By: ivy privy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-49640</link>
		<dc:creator>ivy privy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-49640</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20081127/NEWS01/811270326/1002&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Edwin Salpeter, dead at 83&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20081127/NEWS01/811270326/1002" rel="nofollow">Edwin Salpeter, dead at 83</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-49624</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-49624</guid>
		<description>&quot;Their collisionless property is only an approximation. It is, however, exactly because this is a very good approximation that we expect there to still be lots of anti-particles remaining for dark matter  So, they don’t interact much, but every once in a while you still get an annihilation when a dark matter particle manages to smack into its anti-particle. It’s not going to happen often, naturally, as they don’t experience much of any attraction. But there’s a lot of dark matter out there, so we expect the signal should be measurable&quot;

Ok, that&#039;s exactly the point, what about the bounds about collisionless DM versus the pamela results that require large cross sections (Somerfeld enhanced?). We are not in a particularly hot spot in the galaxy, so this is happening everywhere, how can it remain &#039;colisionless&#039;? can you throw out some numbers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Their collisionless property is only an approximation. It is, however, exactly because this is a very good approximation that we expect there to still be lots of anti-particles remaining for dark matter  So, they don’t interact much, but every once in a while you still get an annihilation when a dark matter particle manages to smack into its anti-particle. It’s not going to happen often, naturally, as they don’t experience much of any attraction. But there’s a lot of dark matter out there, so we expect the signal should be measurable&#8221;</p>
<p>Ok, that&#8217;s exactly the point, what about the bounds about collisionless DM versus the pamela results that require large cross sections (Somerfeld enhanced?). We are not in a particularly hot spot in the galaxy, so this is happening everywhere, how can it remain &#8216;colisionless&#8217;? can you throw out some numbers?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-49623</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 05:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-49623</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Must CDM be self-collisionless or could it simply be
reluctant to form small scale dark matter structures?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I&#039;m pretty sure those are one and the same question.  In order to collapse, it must emit energy in some way.  And in order to do that, it has to collide with things.  Obviously there are some limits as to just how collisionless it must be based upon our current observations of dark matter both in the early universe and today.  For the possibility of a dark charge, you may want to check out Sean&#039;s relatively recent blog post on dark photons.

&lt;blockquote&gt;A large pool of dark matter would not only slowly accrete
more dark matter, it would also sweep up normal matter,
which has probably been denser at small scales than DM
since BBNS. The denser material would sink into the pool.
If DM is allowed to become too dense, the normal matter
simply would sink into the centre of mass forming layers
of increasingly heavy atoms and nuclei. In the early days
of initial structure formation, that would mean isotopes
of H to Be and the products of huge pressures upon the
corewards layers (heavier elements, and heavy isotopes
that are stabilized by pressure).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Well, not quite.  Big bang nucleosynthesis (BBNS) is pretty insensitive to the nature of dark matter as the universe just had hardly clumped at all back then.  BBNS was driven almost entirely by the overall temperature and density, not the minuscule fluctuations thereof.  What places the most stringent limits upon dark matter&#039;s properties in the early universe is the CMB itself, which basically places an upper limit upon the temperature of dark matter (too warm, and you don&#039;t get any structure, but it can be as cold as you like).

&lt;blockquote&gt;Could the annihilation question also be put as: if a dark
matter structure arose in a part of the universe with a
very small amount of visible matter, would it eventually
accrete sufficient dark mass to trigger ongoing
annihilations in the core of what by analogy could be
called a “dark matter star”?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Not sure.  Depends upon the details of how quickly it loses energy to its environment.  For example, if annihilations are sufficiently common that more energy is lost through annihilations than collisions, I suspect that the dark matter halo may never gain in density significantly except by the addition of new matter, such that it won&#039;t ever achieve the densities required.  If the collisions are common enough that they dump more energy into their environment than annihilations, then sure, I might imagine something like this happening, but it&#039;d take a very long time.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Sure, but not at very high densities in wells like our
solar system, or surely we would have noticed it affecting
planetary orbits and the sun’s physics.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Right, the effect is pretty small, and you need very large amounts of normal matter for the overdensity of normal matter to count significantly.  And yes, the converse is also true, that normal matter is more likely to be found in the more dense regions of dark matter.  But the point is that the normal matter interacts much more strongly and tends to fall inward into the potential well, whereas the dark matter stays relatively stable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Must CDM be self-collisionless or could it simply be<br />
reluctant to form small scale dark matter structures?</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure those are one and the same question.  In order to collapse, it must emit energy in some way.  And in order to do that, it has to collide with things.  Obviously there are some limits as to just how collisionless it must be based upon our current observations of dark matter both in the early universe and today.  For the possibility of a dark charge, you may want to check out Sean&#8217;s relatively recent blog post on dark photons.</p>
<blockquote><p>A large pool of dark matter would not only slowly accrete<br />
more dark matter, it would also sweep up normal matter,<br />
which has probably been denser at small scales than DM<br />
since BBNS. The denser material would sink into the pool.<br />
If DM is allowed to become too dense, the normal matter<br />
simply would sink into the centre of mass forming layers<br />
of increasingly heavy atoms and nuclei. In the early days<br />
of initial structure formation, that would mean isotopes<br />
of H to Be and the products of huge pressures upon the<br />
corewards layers (heavier elements, and heavy isotopes<br />
that are stabilized by pressure).</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, not quite.  Big bang nucleosynthesis (BBNS) is pretty insensitive to the nature of dark matter as the universe just had hardly clumped at all back then.  BBNS was driven almost entirely by the overall temperature and density, not the minuscule fluctuations thereof.  What places the most stringent limits upon dark matter&#8217;s properties in the early universe is the CMB itself, which basically places an upper limit upon the temperature of dark matter (too warm, and you don&#8217;t get any structure, but it can be as cold as you like).</p>
<blockquote><p>Could the annihilation question also be put as: if a dark<br />
matter structure arose in a part of the universe with a<br />
very small amount of visible matter, would it eventually<br />
accrete sufficient dark mass to trigger ongoing<br />
annihilations in the core of what by analogy could be<br />
called a “dark matter star”?</p></blockquote>
<p>Not sure.  Depends upon the details of how quickly it loses energy to its environment.  For example, if annihilations are sufficiently common that more energy is lost through annihilations than collisions, I suspect that the dark matter halo may never gain in density significantly except by the addition of new matter, such that it won&#8217;t ever achieve the densities required.  If the collisions are common enough that they dump more energy into their environment than annihilations, then sure, I might imagine something like this happening, but it&#8217;d take a very long time.</p>
<blockquote><p>Sure, but not at very high densities in wells like our<br />
solar system, or surely we would have noticed it affecting<br />
planetary orbits and the sun’s physics.</p></blockquote>
<p>Right, the effect is pretty small, and you need very large amounts of normal matter for the overdensity of normal matter to count significantly.  And yes, the converse is also true, that normal matter is more likely to be found in the more dense regions of dark matter.  But the point is that the normal matter interacts much more strongly and tends to fall inward into the potential well, whereas the dark matter stays relatively stable.</p>
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		<title>By: Brody Facoum</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/comment-page-1/#comment-49614</link>
		<dc:creator>Brody Facoum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 03:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/11/25/somethings-in-the-air/#comment-49614</guid>
		<description>Jason -

Thanks.  I have a couple dumb, unrigorously framed questions:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Right, the dark matter doesn&#039;t collapse much
on its own, because it is almost collisionless. Once you
get a halo of dark matter, unless it interacts with
something external to it, it largely just stays as it is
for then after.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A DM halo obviously interacts with lots of things external
to it, at least gravitationally: the rest of the mass in
the structure the halo is part of, and mass external to
the structure.

Must CDM be self-collisionless or could it simply be
reluctant to form small scale dark matter structures?
Obviously it is much less dense than normal matter,
because it went unnoticed by classical astronomers like
Kepler and Newton (and pretty much everyone else until the
20th century).  Perhaps there is a dark charge which works
against gravitational attraction analogously to electron
degeneracy pressure.

&lt;blockquote&gt;dark matter is still more likely to be found
in wells where normal matter has condensed into compact
objects&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A large pool of dark matter would not only slowly accrete
more dark matter, it would also sweep up normal matter,
which has probably been denser at small scales than DM
since BBNS.  The denser material would sink into the pool.
If DM is allowed to become too dense, the normal matter
simply would sink into the centre of mass forming layers
of increasingly heavy atoms and nuclei.  In the early days
of initial structure formation, that would mean isotopes
of H to Be and the products of huge pressures upon the
corewards layers (heavier elements, and heavy isotopes
that are stabilized by pressure).  Conversely, if DM is
forbidden from becoming dense enough, we have something
similar to the hot dark matter smearing problem of
attracting mass out of the centre of galaxy scale
structures.  However at a &quot;Goldilocks&quot; temperature, the
outer layers of the structure would retain a lot of mass,
counteracting the infall of mass to the centre of the
overall structure, and would thereby enable the formation
of stable stars and star clusters.

&lt;blockquote&gt;This is why, for example, there have been some
suggestions that perhaps there&#039;s some annihilation of dark
matter going on near the galactic core.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Could the annihilation question also be put as: if a dark
matter structure arose in a part of the universe with a
very small amount of visible matter, would it eventually
accrete sufficient dark mass to trigger ongoing
annihilations in the core of what by analogy could be
called a &quot;dark matter star&quot;?

&lt;blockquote&gt;dark matter is still more likely to be found
in wells where normal matter has condensed into compact
objects&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sure, but not at very high densities in wells like our
solar system, or surely we would have noticed it affecting
planetary orbits and the sun&#039;s physics.  There may be a
gentle density gradient within the solar system, but there
are tight limits on that from observations of
trans-Neptunian objects, right?

So, couldn&#039;t one also say that hot, dense normal matter is
more likely to be found in wells where dark matter has
condensed into relatively dense structures?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason -</p>
<p>Thanks.  I have a couple dumb, unrigorously framed questions:</p>
<blockquote><p>Right, the dark matter doesn&#8217;t collapse much<br />
on its own, because it is almost collisionless. Once you<br />
get a halo of dark matter, unless it interacts with<br />
something external to it, it largely just stays as it is<br />
for then after.</p></blockquote>
<p>A DM halo obviously interacts with lots of things external<br />
to it, at least gravitationally: the rest of the mass in<br />
the structure the halo is part of, and mass external to<br />
the structure.</p>
<p>Must CDM be self-collisionless or could it simply be<br />
reluctant to form small scale dark matter structures?<br />
Obviously it is much less dense than normal matter,<br />
because it went unnoticed by classical astronomers like<br />
Kepler and Newton (and pretty much everyone else until the<br />
20th century).  Perhaps there is a dark charge which works<br />
against gravitational attraction analogously to electron<br />
degeneracy pressure.</p>
<blockquote><p>dark matter is still more likely to be found<br />
in wells where normal matter has condensed into compact<br />
objects</p></blockquote>
<p>A large pool of dark matter would not only slowly accrete<br />
more dark matter, it would also sweep up normal matter,<br />
which has probably been denser at small scales than DM<br />
since BBNS.  The denser material would sink into the pool.<br />
If DM is allowed to become too dense, the normal matter<br />
simply would sink into the centre of mass forming layers<br />
of increasingly heavy atoms and nuclei.  In the early days<br />
of initial structure formation, that would mean isotopes<br />
of H to Be and the products of huge pressures upon the<br />
corewards layers (heavier elements, and heavy isotopes<br />
that are stabilized by pressure).  Conversely, if DM is<br />
forbidden from becoming dense enough, we have something<br />
similar to the hot dark matter smearing problem of<br />
attracting mass out of the centre of galaxy scale<br />
structures.  However at a &#8220;Goldilocks&#8221; temperature, the<br />
outer layers of the structure would retain a lot of mass,<br />
counteracting the infall of mass to the centre of the<br />
overall structure, and would thereby enable the formation<br />
of stable stars and star clusters.</p>
<blockquote><p>This is why, for example, there have been some<br />
suggestions that perhaps there&#8217;s some annihilation of dark<br />
matter going on near the galactic core.</p></blockquote>
<p>Could the annihilation question also be put as: if a dark<br />
matter structure arose in a part of the universe with a<br />
very small amount of visible matter, would it eventually<br />
accrete sufficient dark mass to trigger ongoing<br />
annihilations in the core of what by analogy could be<br />
called a &#8220;dark matter star&#8221;?</p>
<blockquote><p>dark matter is still more likely to be found<br />
in wells where normal matter has condensed into compact<br />
objects</p></blockquote>
<p>Sure, but not at very high densities in wells like our<br />
solar system, or surely we would have noticed it affecting<br />
planetary orbits and the sun&#8217;s physics.  There may be a<br />
gentle density gradient within the solar system, but there<br />
are tight limits on that from observations of<br />
trans-Neptunian objects, right?</p>
<p>So, couldn&#8217;t one also say that hot, dense normal matter is<br />
more likely to be found in wells where dark matter has<br />
condensed into relatively dense structures?</p>
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