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	<title>Comments on: Even More on the Stimulus</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Matt A</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-63552</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-63552</guid>
		<description>Once again this blog shows a complete lack of basic economic understanding.

The graph shown is for the &quot;economic multiplier&quot;, ie. for every $1 invested how much return we see in long run GDP.  However, I have never seen any type of multiplier analysis even close to what the graph is showing.  For example, extending unemployment benefits has a multiplier of 1.63?  Numerous studies have shown extending the duration of unemployment benefits only increase the unemployment rate (that&#039;s even in my Econ 101 textbook, though I doubt many of the commentators on this site own one). 

Tax cuts stimulate the economy for two reasons:  1) you are providing works with more incentive to work harder, therefore you increase worker productivity and 2) workers will simply have more money to spend/save/invest as they see fit.  For example, Christina Romer (Obama&#039;s new chair of the Council of Economic Advisers) found an economic multiplier of 3 for tax cuts: 

http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/~cromer/RomerDraft307.pdf

If Obama had such a smart choice for (some of) his economic advisers, why on earth did he outsource the writing of this stimulus package to pelosi and the house democrats?

On a final note, the problem with huge outlays in government spending (such as this stimulus package) under the auspices of &quot;stimulating the economy&quot; is that everyone makes the case that their own special interest has the &quot;best bang for the buck&quot; for spending .. accordingly you guys all argue $1 invested in science and technology by the government is the best way to grow the economy ..  maybe you&#039;re looking out for your own tax payer funded jobs ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again this blog shows a complete lack of basic economic understanding.</p>
<p>The graph shown is for the &#8220;economic multiplier&#8221;, ie. for every $1 invested how much return we see in long run GDP.  However, I have never seen any type of multiplier analysis even close to what the graph is showing.  For example, extending unemployment benefits has a multiplier of 1.63?  Numerous studies have shown extending the duration of unemployment benefits only increase the unemployment rate (that&#8217;s even in my Econ 101 textbook, though I doubt many of the commentators on this site own one). </p>
<p>Tax cuts stimulate the economy for two reasons:  1) you are providing works with more incentive to work harder, therefore you increase worker productivity and 2) workers will simply have more money to spend/save/invest as they see fit.  For example, Christina Romer (Obama&#8217;s new chair of the Council of Economic Advisers) found an economic multiplier of 3 for tax cuts: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/~cromer/RomerDraft307.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/~cromer/RomerDraft307.pdf</a></p>
<p>If Obama had such a smart choice for (some of) his economic advisers, why on earth did he outsource the writing of this stimulus package to pelosi and the house democrats?</p>
<p>On a final note, the problem with huge outlays in government spending (such as this stimulus package) under the auspices of &#8220;stimulating the economy&#8221; is that everyone makes the case that their own special interest has the &#8220;best bang for the buck&#8221; for spending .. accordingly you guys all argue $1 invested in science and technology by the government is the best way to grow the economy ..  maybe you&#8217;re looking out for your own tax payer funded jobs <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Science funding crisis &#171; The Liquid Thinker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-62899</link>
		<dc:creator>Science funding crisis &#171; The Liquid Thinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 22:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-62899</guid>
		<description>[...] There are other cuts of course, but I see a tendency to focus cutting on science, technology and education. This is unacceptable and irresponsible. It shows that our government still has not worked out what ought to be priorities for a well functioning society, or realized that science funding does help stimulate the economy. More stimulus bang for the buck than tax cuts. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] There are other cuts of course, but I see a tendency to focus cutting on science, technology and education. This is unacceptable and irresponsible. It shows that our government still has not worked out what ought to be priorities for a well functioning society, or realized that science funding does help stimulate the economy. More stimulus bang for the buck than tax cuts. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: a grad student</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-62625</link>
		<dc:creator>a grad student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-62625</guid>
		<description>One other thing..if the source of the graphic is this chart: http://www.economy.com/dismal/graphs/blog/mz_012208_1t.GIF

then it only relates the one year $ change/return in gdp which is how the graphic should be labeled</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other thing..if the source of the graphic is this chart: <a href="http://www.economy.com/dismal/graphs/blog/mz_012208_1t.GIF" rel="nofollow">http://www.economy.com/dismal/graphs/blog/mz_012208_1t.GIF</a></p>
<p>then it only relates the one year $ change/return in gdp which is how the graphic should be labeled</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Critter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-62574</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Critter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 05:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-62574</guid>
		<description>No company or corporation has built a factory because they have received a corporate tax cut.  They built new factories because the demand for their product has increased.  The demand come first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No company or corporation has built a factory because they have received a corporate tax cut.  They built new factories because the demand for their product has increased.  The demand come first.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-62573</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 05:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-62573</guid>
		<description>@ Anonymous Snowboarder

&quot;In particular, if money is fungible, why would a person treat increased unemployment benefits differently than a tax rebate check?&quot;

I&#039;m no economics expert - perhaps nobody is - but maybe the person on unemployment is more likely to be in such dire need that he has no option but to spend the money just to provide basic necessities such as food and rent, whereas any tax rebate check I get will go straight into the bank, and the money will stay there for quite a while.  I will probably just have more money in the bank the second before I die, after which, of course, I will no longer maintain possession of it.  
     Quite frankly, I&#039;m not even sure what we mean by &quot;stimulate the economy.&quot;  Do we mean raise the GDP, create more economic activity, increase the production and delivery of goods and services?  If the GDP rises and the median income declines, will we say that the economy has improved?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Anonymous Snowboarder</p>
<p>&#8220;In particular, if money is fungible, why would a person treat increased unemployment benefits differently than a tax rebate check?&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no economics expert &#8211; perhaps nobody is &#8211; but maybe the person on unemployment is more likely to be in such dire need that he has no option but to spend the money just to provide basic necessities such as food and rent, whereas any tax rebate check I get will go straight into the bank, and the money will stay there for quite a while.  I will probably just have more money in the bank the second before I die, after which, of course, I will no longer maintain possession of it.<br />
     Quite frankly, I&#8217;m not even sure what we mean by &#8220;stimulate the economy.&#8221;  Do we mean raise the GDP, create more economic activity, increase the production and delivery of goods and services?  If the GDP rises and the median income declines, will we say that the economy has improved?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Snowboarder</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-62555</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Snowboarder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 00:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-62555</guid>
		<description>@John - thanks for the comment on my blog.   I&#039;ve posted a reply, but will cross it here too:

Zandi is just one of many economists who have spoken on this subject and as others have noted, his group has put out some debatable stats about the effects of different spending/tax changes. In particular, if money is fungible, why would a person treat increased unemployment benefits differently than a tax rebate check? He claims the tax check would be put towards paying down debt and yet claims that people will spend any income support they get very quickly. Its difficult to have this both ways unless the income support is greatly in excess of the tax credit.

Here are a few conflicting views:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123258618204604599.html
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/18068.html

and a full page ad/list of those economists who think its not so good:
http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus09/cato_stimulus.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John &#8211; thanks for the comment on my blog.   I&#8217;ve posted a reply, but will cross it here too:</p>
<p>Zandi is just one of many economists who have spoken on this subject and as others have noted, his group has put out some debatable stats about the effects of different spending/tax changes. In particular, if money is fungible, why would a person treat increased unemployment benefits differently than a tax rebate check? He claims the tax check would be put towards paying down debt and yet claims that people will spend any income support they get very quickly. Its difficult to have this both ways unless the income support is greatly in excess of the tax credit.</p>
<p>Here are a few conflicting views:<br />
<a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123258618204604599.html" rel="nofollow">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123258618204604599.html</a><br />
<a href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/18068.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/18068.html</a></p>
<p>and a full page ad/list of those economists who think its not so good:<br />
<a href="http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus09/cato_stimulus.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus09/cato_stimulus.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-62539</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-62539</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Joseph, for the link to Zandi&#039;s analysis.  In there he tells us that the numbers in the chart in my post represent the one-year dollar increase to GDP for every dollar spent, based on Moody&#039;s macroeconomic model.

One can quibble with the model assumptions, but it is hard to imagine that it is so wrong that  it could turn a 30-cent-return on corporate tax cuts into a net positive return.   So, yes, Sili, I really do believe that if people were educated about this, the argument in favor of tax cuts would be squelched, definitively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Joseph, for the link to Zandi&#8217;s analysis.  In there he tells us that the numbers in the chart in my post represent the one-year dollar increase to GDP for every dollar spent, based on Moody&#8217;s macroeconomic model.</p>
<p>One can quibble with the model assumptions, but it is hard to imagine that it is so wrong that  it could turn a 30-cent-return on corporate tax cuts into a net positive return.   So, yes, Sili, I really do believe that if people were educated about this, the argument in favor of tax cuts would be squelched, definitively.</p>
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		<title>By: Sili</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-62533</link>
		<dc:creator>Sili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-62533</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;squelch definitively the incessant chant for tax cuts&lt;/blockquote&gt;

HAH!

Do you really believe that? When has facts and reality &lt;em&gt;ever&lt;/em&gt; come in the way of the Republan politic of lining the pockets of one&#039;s chums? I&#039;m no USAnian, but I do prefer &quot;tax and spend&quot; to &quot;spend and spend&quot;.

Now if we could get rid of the incessant box ticking and middle management we&#039;re incumbered with over here in the name of &#039;quality control&#039;, then we might even get to spend that money sensibly. I have long ago learned that &#039;quality&#039; in the mouth of a politico means &#039;quantity&#039;. Wankers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>squelch definitively the incessant chant for tax cuts</p></blockquote>
<p>HAH!</p>
<p>Do you really believe that? When has facts and reality <em>ever</em> come in the way of the Republan politic of lining the pockets of one&#8217;s chums? I&#8217;m no USAnian, but I do prefer &#8220;tax and spend&#8221; to &#8220;spend and spend&#8221;.</p>
<p>Now if we could get rid of the incessant box ticking and middle management we&#8217;re incumbered with over here in the name of &#8216;quality control&#8217;, then we might even get to spend that money sensibly. I have long ago learned that &#8216;quality&#8217; in the mouth of a politico means &#8216;quantity&#8217;. Wankers.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-62517</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-62517</guid>
		<description>The source of the chart data seems to be Moody&#039;s economic model.  See page 9 of http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/Economic_Stimulus_House_Plan_012109.pdf

There seems to be some possibly misleading assumptions behind this chart.  For example, how did Moody&#039;s calculate the effect of &quot;making Bush income tax cuts permenent&quot;?  Suppose they assumed that *all* taxes would go up in 2009, and then computed the GDP gain at the end of 2009 of &quot;spending&quot; *only* on the Bush income tax cuts.  That might amount to a net tax increase with no increase in other spending in Moody&#039;s model -- of course that&#039;s going to have a negative return for the economy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The source of the chart data seems to be Moody&#8217;s economic model.  See page 9 of <a href="http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/Economic_Stimulus_House_Plan_012109.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/Economic_Stimulus_House_Plan_012109.pdf</a></p>
<p>There seems to be some possibly misleading assumptions behind this chart.  For example, how did Moody&#8217;s calculate the effect of &#8220;making Bush income tax cuts permenent&#8221;?  Suppose they assumed that *all* taxes would go up in 2009, and then computed the GDP gain at the end of 2009 of &#8220;spending&#8221; *only* on the Bush income tax cuts.  That might amount to a net tax increase with no increase in other spending in Moody&#8217;s model &#8212; of course that&#8217;s going to have a negative return for the economy!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Heldenbrand</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/comment-page-1/#comment-62495</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Heldenbrand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 13:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/02/03/even-more-on-the-stimulus/#comment-62495</guid>
		<description>Increased spending into science has perhaps the highest probable return than any other.  New technology requires new manufacturing, new specialists, new materials, new retailers.  

You have to understand, most of the things Republicans consider &#039;waste&#039; only sound like it to people who don&#039;t rely on it.  A town with an extremely popular waterpark might request funds to repair it.  Without those funds the waterpark will fail and the town might wither and die.  Meanwhile their tax dollars are no longer taken to the government, their purchases no longer make their way back into the economy.  Meanwhile, all the government saw to slash was &#039;waterpark&#039;.  Money sent back in -any- form into -our- infrastructure will return.  Money sent overseas will not.  

Besides, after 8 years of digging our economic grave Republicans have absolutely no room to talk about fiscal responsibility.  While in power they could have reigned in Bush anytime they wanted, or proposed their own fixes.  They didn&#039;t.  Now its up to a new administration to clean up the mess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Increased spending into science has perhaps the highest probable return than any other.  New technology requires new manufacturing, new specialists, new materials, new retailers.  </p>
<p>You have to understand, most of the things Republicans consider &#8216;waste&#8217; only sound like it to people who don&#8217;t rely on it.  A town with an extremely popular waterpark might request funds to repair it.  Without those funds the waterpark will fail and the town might wither and die.  Meanwhile their tax dollars are no longer taken to the government, their purchases no longer make their way back into the economy.  Meanwhile, all the government saw to slash was &#8216;waterpark&#8217;.  Money sent back in -any- form into -our- infrastructure will return.  Money sent overseas will not.  </p>
<p>Besides, after 8 years of digging our economic grave Republicans have absolutely no room to talk about fiscal responsibility.  While in power they could have reigned in Bush anytime they wanted, or proposed their own fixes.  They didn&#8217;t.  Now its up to a new administration to clean up the mess.</p>
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