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	<title>Comments on: Scientists are not You and Me</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 00:09:16 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Paul Murray</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-67133</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 05:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-67133</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So, it’s not that the government’s money is going to someone else, it’s that it seems to be going to someone they could never, ever be.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Whereas every american likes to imagine that they might become super-rich, and so bailouts and tax-cuts for the top .1% are a great idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So, it’s not that the government’s money is going to someone else, it’s that it seems to be going to someone they could never, ever be.</p></blockquote>
<p>Whereas every american likes to imagine that they might become super-rich, and so bailouts and tax-cuts for the top .1% are a great idea.</p>
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		<title>By: More on McCain and antiscience pandering &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-66089</link>
		<dc:creator>More on McCain and antiscience pandering &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 18:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-66089</guid>
		<description>[...] Julianne on Cosmic Variance has more to say on this &quot;Us versus Them&quot; mentality many on the far right have been shilling for years now, a conscious effort to mock those Americans with educations, including, and especially, scientists. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Julianne on Cosmic Variance has more to say on this &quot;Us versus Them&quot; mentality many on the far right have been shilling for years now, a conscious effort to mock those Americans with educations, including, and especially, scientists. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Low Math, Meekly Interacting</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-65711</link>
		<dc:creator>Low Math, Meekly Interacting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 15:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-65711</guid>
		<description>gah, &quot;sad truths&quot;.

(sorry dad)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gah, &#8220;sad truths&#8221;.</p>
<p>(sorry dad)</p>
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		<title>By: Low Math, Meekly Interacting</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-65710</link>
		<dc:creator>Low Math, Meekly Interacting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-65710</guid>
		<description>Needless to say, I expected this sort of thing to happen in short order, and predict it will continue to happen as long as it&#039;s a politically valuable strategy.

I think y&#039;all are kidding yourselves, though, if you think outreach is the answer, at least in the foreseeable future.  There&#039;s a now centuries-old tradition of &quot;anti-elitism&quot; (i.e. self-serving rich people duping poor people into thinking intellectuals are the real enemy) in American conservatism, and it&#039;s so firmly entrenched I see little hope in attacking the problem head-on.  My sense is the path forward consists of clever end-runs around the conservative &quot;base&quot;, and part of that strategy means picking your battles wisely, and supporting legislation that makes it easy for the opposition to give you what you want.  I doubt very much that McCain cares about Volcano research one way or the other.  If he could score political points mocking it, he would; if not, he&#039;d mock something else.  Same goes for most of them.  Look at Mitt Romney, for crying out loud.  Here&#039;s a guy who&#039;s clearly smart enough to know how absurd he ought to sound, except he&#039;s also smart enough to know he&#039;s doing and saying the right things to remake himself as a &quot;real&quot; conservative, and eventually he&#039;ll shed the taint of MA moderation.  These folks understand your opposition.  They know how to fool them, and that opposition wants nothing more fervently than to believe the lies they&#039;re fed.  Gotta factor these dad truths in, or else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Needless to say, I expected this sort of thing to happen in short order, and predict it will continue to happen as long as it&#8217;s a politically valuable strategy.</p>
<p>I think y&#8217;all are kidding yourselves, though, if you think outreach is the answer, at least in the foreseeable future.  There&#8217;s a now centuries-old tradition of &#8220;anti-elitism&#8221; (i.e. self-serving rich people duping poor people into thinking intellectuals are the real enemy) in American conservatism, and it&#8217;s so firmly entrenched I see little hope in attacking the problem head-on.  My sense is the path forward consists of clever end-runs around the conservative &#8220;base&#8221;, and part of that strategy means picking your battles wisely, and supporting legislation that makes it easy for the opposition to give you what you want.  I doubt very much that McCain cares about Volcano research one way or the other.  If he could score political points mocking it, he would; if not, he&#8217;d mock something else.  Same goes for most of them.  Look at Mitt Romney, for crying out loud.  Here&#8217;s a guy who&#8217;s clearly smart enough to know how absurd he ought to sound, except he&#8217;s also smart enough to know he&#8217;s doing and saying the right things to remake himself as a &#8220;real&#8221; conservative, and eventually he&#8217;ll shed the taint of MA moderation.  These folks understand your opposition.  They know how to fool them, and that opposition wants nothing more fervently than to believe the lies they&#8217;re fed.  Gotta factor these dad truths in, or else.</p>
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		<title>By: Winter Solstice Man</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-65540</link>
		<dc:creator>Winter Solstice Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-65540</guid>
		<description>Read Richard Greenberg&#039;s new book Unmasking Europa if you want some idea how unscientific some scientists can be.

It amazes me the human race has accomplished as much as it has despite our greed and stupidity.

Perhaps science should be approached and treated akin to the priesthood.  You need full devotion to the subject and follow the Golden Rule, which is to be objective and stick to the evidence.

Since most scientists can&#039;t get laid, focusing on their work should not be a problem. :^)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read Richard Greenberg&#8217;s new book Unmasking Europa if you want some idea how unscientific some scientists can be.</p>
<p>It amazes me the human race has accomplished as much as it has despite our greed and stupidity.</p>
<p>Perhaps science should be approached and treated akin to the priesthood.  You need full devotion to the subject and follow the Golden Rule, which is to be objective and stick to the evidence.</p>
<p>Since most scientists can&#8217;t get laid, focusing on their work should not be a problem. :^)</p>
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		<title>By: jackal</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-65489</link>
		<dc:creator>jackal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 06:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-65489</guid>
		<description>Perhaps its time we had a Vannevar Bush for our era. He or She could write &quot;Science the Endless Frontier II: Back to the Future&quot;. Ok, that&#039;s a bit much.. 

In a representative democracy like the US, successful science policy demands that the public understand what gets funded, at least in some sense. This is one reason why great science communicators are so profoundly important, and also why science education is so critical. There are very complex and interdependent multipliers that exist between governmental funding of scientific research, industrial development of said technology and capital flows back into academia from these industries; alas, I fear this is becoming less and less well understood. 

If you&#039;re going to criticize earmarks, fine, but for gods&#039; sake pick something truly egregious, not something that actually has value towards the long-term competitiveness of the United States. Innovation, and I mean real, genuine innovation that increases productivity and changes the way we live, is America&#039;s central long-term advantage, if a pittance spent on science education gets a few kids hooked onto empirical reasoning and thinking about the world, more power to them. 

By the way, to that last comment, good luck getting private funding of ANYTHING right now, let alone high-risk basic science research. Government has a profoundly important, if not central, role to play now that so many industries are deathly afraid to invest in anything, let alone basic science, as it had a central role to play in the science and engineering explosion post-WWII (see NSF, DOE, DARPA etc.). Even when private companies undertake basic research through their labs/research divisions these projects often only exist because the govt is willing to pony up funds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps its time we had a Vannevar Bush for our era. He or She could write &#8220;Science the Endless Frontier II: Back to the Future&#8221;. Ok, that&#8217;s a bit much.. </p>
<p>In a representative democracy like the US, successful science policy demands that the public understand what gets funded, at least in some sense. This is one reason why great science communicators are so profoundly important, and also why science education is so critical. There are very complex and interdependent multipliers that exist between governmental funding of scientific research, industrial development of said technology and capital flows back into academia from these industries; alas, I fear this is becoming less and less well understood. </p>
<p>If you&#8217;re going to criticize earmarks, fine, but for gods&#8217; sake pick something truly egregious, not something that actually has value towards the long-term competitiveness of the United States. Innovation, and I mean real, genuine innovation that increases productivity and changes the way we live, is America&#8217;s central long-term advantage, if a pittance spent on science education gets a few kids hooked onto empirical reasoning and thinking about the world, more power to them. </p>
<p>By the way, to that last comment, good luck getting private funding of ANYTHING right now, let alone high-risk basic science research. Government has a profoundly important, if not central, role to play now that so many industries are deathly afraid to invest in anything, let alone basic science, as it had a central role to play in the science and engineering explosion post-WWII (see NSF, DOE, DARPA etc.). Even when private companies undertake basic research through their labs/research divisions these projects often only exist because the govt is willing to pony up funds.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-65468</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 01:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-65468</guid>
		<description>If I may, I&#039;d like to say this in defense of what McCain said. He didn&#039;t say it because he doesn&#039;t see the point in funding science, but because he doesn&#039;t like doling out lots of cash from the public trough ~period~. I know that a lot of science publications have taken up the &quot;bash GOP&quot; craze these days because they feel that they must defend their fellows getting funding  for various things(and I don&#039;t want anyone to mention their &quot;other&quot; reasons). I think however that they are, in the process, doing a disservice to the debate about public spending as a hole (How much we should spend generally being the bigger question than on what) in which it often looks like scientists are taking sides in favor of big spending. It might make more sense, to my mind, to encourage private support of science, though in ways which would not influence any results. The problem with the public money is that at the rate spending is occurring, all the money for scientific projects isn&#039;t going to be worth jack squat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I may, I&#8217;d like to say this in defense of what McCain said. He didn&#8217;t say it because he doesn&#8217;t see the point in funding science, but because he doesn&#8217;t like doling out lots of cash from the public trough ~period~. I know that a lot of science publications have taken up the &#8220;bash GOP&#8221; craze these days because they feel that they must defend their fellows getting funding  for various things(and I don&#8217;t want anyone to mention their &#8220;other&#8221; reasons). I think however that they are, in the process, doing a disservice to the debate about public spending as a hole (How much we should spend generally being the bigger question than on what) in which it often looks like scientists are taking sides in favor of big spending. It might make more sense, to my mind, to encourage private support of science, though in ways which would not influence any results. The problem with the public money is that at the rate spending is occurring, all the money for scientific projects isn&#8217;t going to be worth jack squat.</p>
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		<title>By: coolstar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-65466</link>
		<dc:creator>coolstar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 01:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-65466</guid>
		<description>Wow, I had to read a LONG way down the comments before I found much in the way of right- to-the -point good sense (as opposed to &quot;I&#039;m smarter than you, No, you&#039;re not....)&quot;: 
THANKS macho!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, I had to read a LONG way down the comments before I found much in the way of right- to-the -point good sense (as opposed to &#8220;I&#8217;m smarter than you, No, you&#8217;re not&#8230;.)&#8221;:<br />
THANKS macho!</p>
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		<title>By: macho</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-65461</link>
		<dc:creator>macho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 00:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-65461</guid>
		<description>Two key points need to be emphasized:

The money is not for astronomy research (or professional astronomers or scientists) but for astronomy education -- it will go to support the activities of the Imiloa Astronomy Center.  This includes salary support for the center staff -- most of whom are not professional astronomers.  This includes a wide range of jobs, from maintenance to education.  I don&#039;t know the details of the IAC, but in general, in difficult economic periods it&#039;s difficult for non-profit organizations to maintain staff levels -- these positions are not protected or insulated by tenure, etc.  This is very much in line with the focus of the current administration for creating jobs (including entry level positions).

Supporting science education is also building the infrastructure of this country --  we need to encourage (and support) talented young students in science, and that often starts with expanding their understanding of what science is -- and how exciting it can be.  This is one of the key missions of science museums.  Our economy needs an educated and scientifically/technically literate workforce; and while we definitely need to make major changes/improvements in k-12 science education, museums and planetariums also have a key role to play.

And a final note -- if pundits and politicians want to object to earmarks, there is a honest discussion and debate that should be conducted.  Tossing out comments that work directly against the current and future needs of this country (disparaging science/technology at a time when we need to be building our human resources in this area for economic reasons) is simply wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two key points need to be emphasized:</p>
<p>The money is not for astronomy research (or professional astronomers or scientists) but for astronomy education &#8212; it will go to support the activities of the Imiloa Astronomy Center.  This includes salary support for the center staff &#8212; most of whom are not professional astronomers.  This includes a wide range of jobs, from maintenance to education.  I don&#8217;t know the details of the IAC, but in general, in difficult economic periods it&#8217;s difficult for non-profit organizations to maintain staff levels &#8212; these positions are not protected or insulated by tenure, etc.  This is very much in line with the focus of the current administration for creating jobs (including entry level positions).</p>
<p>Supporting science education is also building the infrastructure of this country &#8212;  we need to encourage (and support) talented young students in science, and that often starts with expanding their understanding of what science is &#8212; and how exciting it can be.  This is one of the key missions of science museums.  Our economy needs an educated and scientifically/technically literate workforce; and while we definitely need to make major changes/improvements in k-12 science education, museums and planetariums also have a key role to play.</p>
<p>And a final note &#8212; if pundits and politicians want to object to earmarks, there is a honest discussion and debate that should be conducted.  Tossing out comments that work directly against the current and future needs of this country (disparaging science/technology at a time when we need to be building our human resources in this area for economic reasons) is simply wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Plait</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/comment-page-1/#comment-65457</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Plait</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 23:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/04/scientists-are-not-you-and-me/#comment-65457</guid>
		<description>For one thing, he may hate earmarks, but he uses science an awful lot as examples of bad ones. Also, his hatred of earmarks is somewhat debatable given his voting history, but that&#039;s not for this discussion.

And the fact is, while the Republicans may be out of power, they will continue to have a voice through mouthpieces like Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, and others of their ilk for quite some time. And as long as they have a voice, and use it to fight against science, then I will make sure people know about it. I do that for anyone I think is antireality, Repub, Dem, or Independent.

And I have been very positive for quite some time on my blog, if you actually read it. Cautiously so, since I am not at all convinced the Obama Administration will do the right thing at the right time. 

I do apply critical thinking to what I do, all the time. That&#039;s why I still need to speak out against those who would fight science, fight reality. They may not be in power over the Federal gov&#039;t right now, but they run lots of states (cough cough Jindal cough) and, as I recall, we have elections in this country every 2 years for various offices. 

Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For one thing, he may hate earmarks, but he uses science an awful lot as examples of bad ones. Also, his hatred of earmarks is somewhat debatable given his voting history, but that&#8217;s not for this discussion.</p>
<p>And the fact is, while the Republicans may be out of power, they will continue to have a voice through mouthpieces like Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, and others of their ilk for quite some time. And as long as they have a voice, and use it to fight against science, then I will make sure people know about it. I do that for anyone I think is antireality, Repub, Dem, or Independent.</p>
<p>And I have been very positive for quite some time on my blog, if you actually read it. Cautiously so, since I am not at all convinced the Obama Administration will do the right thing at the right time. </p>
<p>I do apply critical thinking to what I do, all the time. That&#8217;s why I still need to speak out against those who would fight science, fight reality. They may not be in power over the Federal gov&#8217;t right now, but they run lots of states (cough cough Jindal cough) and, as I recall, we have elections in this country every 2 years for various offices. </p>
<p>Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.</p>
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