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	<title>Comments on: Trapped in the Scientific Doldrums</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-68897</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-68897</guid>
		<description>I saw a case that was much worse than having to repeat a viva.  A student built an entire dissertation around a particular graph theoretic theorem but didn&#039;t bother to even pre-flight the idea with the very famous graph theorist down the hall much less invite him to be on his committee.  The student wasn&#039;t the sharpest tool in the shed in any case.

Then came the public defense.  The student started by stating his theorem.  The afore-mentioned famous graph theorist raised his hand and pointed out a simple counter-example that extinguished in one stroke both the theorem and all of the consequences that filled out the dissertation. 

The sad thing is that the student&#039;s committee and adviser invented a face-saving way to &quot;amend&quot; the dissertation and pass the student.  Essentially the result wound up saying &quot;This theorem is provably false, but if it were true then we could do all of these things&quot;.  The ultimate result was that the student substantially decreased the value of the paper he printed his dissertation on by the simple act of printing it.  This guy actually got an academic job and then proceeded to terrorize students for many years with unanswerable questions collected into non-sensical exams.

The moral for students is to ask your peers and professors for feedback.  And the moral for committees and advisers is to force your students to ask for feedback.  And the moral for all of us is that we shouldn&#039;t give PhD&#039;s to people just to get them to leave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw a case that was much worse than having to repeat a viva.  A student built an entire dissertation around a particular graph theoretic theorem but didn&#8217;t bother to even pre-flight the idea with the very famous graph theorist down the hall much less invite him to be on his committee.  The student wasn&#8217;t the sharpest tool in the shed in any case.</p>
<p>Then came the public defense.  The student started by stating his theorem.  The afore-mentioned famous graph theorist raised his hand and pointed out a simple counter-example that extinguished in one stroke both the theorem and all of the consequences that filled out the dissertation. </p>
<p>The sad thing is that the student&#8217;s committee and adviser invented a face-saving way to &#8220;amend&#8221; the dissertation and pass the student.  Essentially the result wound up saying &#8220;This theorem is provably false, but if it were true then we could do all of these things&#8221;.  The ultimate result was that the student substantially decreased the value of the paper he printed his dissertation on by the simple act of printing it.  This guy actually got an academic job and then proceeded to terrorize students for many years with unanswerable questions collected into non-sensical exams.</p>
<p>The moral for students is to ask your peers and professors for feedback.  And the moral for committees and advisers is to force your students to ask for feedback.  And the moral for all of us is that we shouldn&#8217;t give PhD&#8217;s to people just to get them to leave.</p>
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		<title>By: coolstar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-68209</link>
		<dc:creator>coolstar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 02:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-68209</guid>
		<description>I think thales and SS are on to something here.  There&#039;s really no reason (other than ego) to spend months working on a problem that others you know can solve in hours.  Swiss-army knife? It&#039;s silly to add another tool that you may never use again.  If you really need that skill, you can certainly learn it quicker with help than without.  Of course, like SS, I know of horror stories in astronomy, such as ideas being stolen off of grant or observing proposals.  There are also enough people forced out of their field due to overproduction of phds to solve LOTS of difficult problems......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think thales and SS are on to something here.  There&#8217;s really no reason (other than ego) to spend months working on a problem that others you know can solve in hours.  Swiss-army knife? It&#8217;s silly to add another tool that you may never use again.  If you really need that skill, you can certainly learn it quicker with help than without.  Of course, like SS, I know of horror stories in astronomy, such as ideas being stolen off of grant or observing proposals.  There are also enough people forced out of their field due to overproduction of phds to solve LOTS of difficult problems&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Yvette</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-68151</link>
		<dc:creator>Yvette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-68151</guid>
		<description>I once wrote a sci-fi story that was in the &#039;finding aliens&#039; genre that turned out to be quite challenging because, well, I couldn&#039;t get past the fact that most of my protaganist&#039;s work would be pretty boring.  And I think regardless of any hype on the issue I&#039;m still right on that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I once wrote a sci-fi story that was in the &#8216;finding aliens&#8217; genre that turned out to be quite challenging because, well, I couldn&#8217;t get past the fact that most of my protaganist&#8217;s work would be pretty boring.  And I think regardless of any hype on the issue I&#8217;m still right on that point.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Serjeant</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-68121</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Serjeant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-68121</guid>
		<description>I heard a story of a thesis examiner in astronomy who made a grad student repeat the viva when it turned out that the student couldn&#039;t put names to images of local group galaxies. Yikes. Perhaps not as bad though as the story I heard of a PhD viva on numerical simulations, which started out with the examiners and student talking about the introductory chapter, when one examiner said &quot;Of course you do realise equation 2 doesn&#039;t conserve energy?&quot; It had been taken from a text book which had an error. Ashen-faced student seen rushing out of the viva to print out her source code... It turned out there was a bug which cancelled the error. Having been on both sides of the fence, I&#039;m sure the examiners were almost as keen as the student to find that bug. 

Getting back to the subject in hand, I think there are interesting possibilities in using social networking software in science. There have been conferences where attendees tweet, and I&#039;ve heard of technical questions coming up in grant panel discussions which have been answered in 10 seconds through Twitter. At some conferences, attendees have done real-time ADS searches to address questions from the floor or even refute a speaker. Peer review in seconds! Wow, buzzy. But astronomy, at least as I&#039;ve experienced it, thrives on collaboration. Can we do more with web 2.0? (Academia reclaiming the web! :) For me, the main obstacle isn&#039;t pride, it&#039;s trust. I like interacting with other researchers and being free with ideas, but (mentioning no names) there have been a couple of times when I&#039;ve felt an idea of mine has been taken without attribution or collaboration - nothing earth-shattering, but enough to feel a bit burnt and cross. You can be careful who you talk to in a corridor, but Craigslist talks to anyone and everyone. So I think people would need to be a bit guarded on a Craigslist-type scientific match-up listing. Still, I think thales has an interesting point that we could make more of web 2.0 social networking in science. What do other people think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard a story of a thesis examiner in astronomy who made a grad student repeat the viva when it turned out that the student couldn&#8217;t put names to images of local group galaxies. Yikes. Perhaps not as bad though as the story I heard of a PhD viva on numerical simulations, which started out with the examiners and student talking about the introductory chapter, when one examiner said &#8220;Of course you do realise equation 2 doesn&#8217;t conserve energy?&#8221; It had been taken from a text book which had an error. Ashen-faced student seen rushing out of the viva to print out her source code&#8230; It turned out there was a bug which cancelled the error. Having been on both sides of the fence, I&#8217;m sure the examiners were almost as keen as the student to find that bug. </p>
<p>Getting back to the subject in hand, I think there are interesting possibilities in using social networking software in science. There have been conferences where attendees tweet, and I&#8217;ve heard of technical questions coming up in grant panel discussions which have been answered in 10 seconds through Twitter. At some conferences, attendees have done real-time ADS searches to address questions from the floor or even refute a speaker. Peer review in seconds! Wow, buzzy. But astronomy, at least as I&#8217;ve experienced it, thrives on collaboration. Can we do more with web 2.0? (Academia reclaiming the web! <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  For me, the main obstacle isn&#8217;t pride, it&#8217;s trust. I like interacting with other researchers and being free with ideas, but (mentioning no names) there have been a couple of times when I&#8217;ve felt an idea of mine has been taken without attribution or collaboration &#8211; nothing earth-shattering, but enough to feel a bit burnt and cross. You can be careful who you talk to in a corridor, but Craigslist talks to anyone and everyone. So I think people would need to be a bit guarded on a Craigslist-type scientific match-up listing. Still, I think thales has an interesting point that we could make more of web 2.0 social networking in science. What do other people think?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-67929</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 03:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-67929</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been working for a long time in my spare time on a long paper, and I recently became suspicious that a theorem in it was not passing the sniff test, so I did some research in old papers and in fact found a few counterexamples. I had already spent substantial time building some carefully constructed additional theory on top of that result. The problem originated from a mistake in a proof of a proposition on page 122, so the entire paper was not a house of cards, and not everything that followed depended on it, but nevertheless I felt a little shocked, fried and paralyzed for a week or so. Now I&#039;m starting to work on it again, first salvaging whatever I can and then moving on. I was shocked because my memory of those old papers had failed me, and my proofs are normally carefully constructed with no &quot;it&#039;s clear that ...&quot; that actually requires a page of proof, but here in this one proposition I got careless and did just that, and did not catch the problem on a second reading either.

This reminds me of someone else&#039;s even much worse experience. A graduate student once told me that he had gotten half way through typing up his thesis (yes, I come from pre-computer days, and typing math was painfully tedious back then) and discovered that a lemma that he and his advisor had assumed was obvious was in fact false. He had to start a thesis all over again from scratch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been working for a long time in my spare time on a long paper, and I recently became suspicious that a theorem in it was not passing the sniff test, so I did some research in old papers and in fact found a few counterexamples. I had already spent substantial time building some carefully constructed additional theory on top of that result. The problem originated from a mistake in a proof of a proposition on page 122, so the entire paper was not a house of cards, and not everything that followed depended on it, but nevertheless I felt a little shocked, fried and paralyzed for a week or so. Now I&#8217;m starting to work on it again, first salvaging whatever I can and then moving on. I was shocked because my memory of those old papers had failed me, and my proofs are normally carefully constructed with no &#8220;it&#8217;s clear that &#8230;&#8221; that actually requires a page of proof, but here in this one proposition I got careless and did just that, and did not catch the problem on a second reading either.</p>
<p>This reminds me of someone else&#8217;s even much worse experience. A graduate student once told me that he had gotten half way through typing up his thesis (yes, I come from pre-computer days, and typing math was painfully tedious back then) and discovered that a lemma that he and his advisor had assumed was obvious was in fact false. He had to start a thesis all over again from scratch.</p>
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		<title>By: Charon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-67915</link>
		<dc:creator>Charon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 01:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-67915</guid>
		<description>thales: usually the people who could solve your problem have problems of their own to work on, and however interesting you think the problem is, they have different priorities.

However, such collaborations do sometimes happen. Example I&#039;m aware of: an astronomer working with a computer scientist, because both skill sets are needed to solve the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thales: usually the people who could solve your problem have problems of their own to work on, and however interesting you think the problem is, they have different priorities.</p>
<p>However, such collaborations do sometimes happen. Example I&#8217;m aware of: an astronomer working with a computer scientist, because both skill sets are needed to solve the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: thales</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-67881</link>
		<dc:creator>thales</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-67881</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m no professional scientist - just a wannabe - but I wonder why there isn&#039;t some kind of Craigslist-style classifieds for solving thorny scientific or math problems. As Tyler Cowen often points out at Marginal Revolution, there are &quot;markets in everything.&quot; 

Example: you&#039;ve spent a frustrating month trying to solve a network of partial differential equations. So you go to, say, Hawkingslist.com and post your problem, promising the first person who can solve it to be credited as a collaborator. Maybe you promise a small cash payment as well. 

My hunch is that such a system hasn&#039;t already been put in place because there&#039;s too much pride at stake for the researcher/scientist to risk. Or perhaps there is such a system and I am simply unaware of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m no professional scientist &#8211; just a wannabe &#8211; but I wonder why there isn&#8217;t some kind of Craigslist-style classifieds for solving thorny scientific or math problems. As Tyler Cowen often points out at Marginal Revolution, there are &#8220;markets in everything.&#8221; </p>
<p>Example: you&#8217;ve spent a frustrating month trying to solve a network of partial differential equations. So you go to, say, Hawkingslist.com and post your problem, promising the first person who can solve it to be credited as a collaborator. Maybe you promise a small cash payment as well. </p>
<p>My hunch is that such a system hasn&#8217;t already been put in place because there&#8217;s too much pride at stake for the researcher/scientist to risk. Or perhaps there is such a system and I am simply unaware of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Julianne</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-67872</link>
		<dc:creator>Julianne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-67872</guid>
		<description>John -- There&#039;s also the opposite &quot;BLAST! (leave overnight, and the next morning...) AHA!&quot; experience.  That&#039;s a lot more fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John &#8212; There&#8217;s also the opposite &#8220;BLAST! (leave overnight, and the next morning&#8230;) AHA!&#8221; experience.  That&#8217;s a lot more fun.</p>
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		<title>By: John R Ramsden</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-67854</link>
		<dc:creator>John R Ramsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-67854</guid>
		<description>Worse than the &quot;muttermutter&quot; stage is the &quot;AHA! (leave overnight, and the next morning ..) BLAST!&quot; roller coaster.

The famous maths collaborators G H Hardy and J E Littlewood had differing opinions on how to leave things after the initial &quot;AHA!&quot;. Hardy liked to sleep on it, with a glow of satisfaction that his idea or result was probably right even if his hopes might be dashed the next day, whereas Littlewood preferred double checking immediately to be absolutely sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Worse than the &#8220;muttermutter&#8221; stage is the &#8220;AHA! (leave overnight, and the next morning ..) BLAST!&#8221; roller coaster.</p>
<p>The famous maths collaborators G H Hardy and J E Littlewood had differing opinions on how to leave things after the initial &#8220;AHA!&#8221;. Hardy liked to sleep on it, with a glow of satisfaction that his idea or result was probably right even if his hopes might be dashed the next day, whereas Littlewood preferred double checking immediately to be absolutely sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/comment-page-1/#comment-67852</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/03/19/trapped-in-the-scientific-doldrums/#comment-67852</guid>
		<description>(or, in my case, about solving a network of partial differential equations where the time dependence of three quantities depends on the spatial variation of 1 or more of the others. Ick.)

Regrettably, reality is usually best described by these sorts of equations. The upside is that it keeps anybody who has to do fluids (for example) employed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(or, in my case, about solving a network of partial differential equations where the time dependence of three quantities depends on the spatial variation of 1 or more of the others. Ick.)</p>
<p>Regrettably, reality is usually best described by these sorts of equations. The upside is that it keeps anybody who has to do fluids (for example) employed</p>
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