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	<title>Comments on: The Earth&#8217;s Elder</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Concerned Skeptic</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71314</link>
		<dc:creator>Concerned Skeptic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71314</guid>
		<description>Has anyone actually done a DNA test on Pando or examine his (you know &lt;a href=&quot;http://discovermagazine.com/1993/oct/thetremblinggian285&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pando is male&lt;/a&gt;, right?) roots?  I&#039;ve been told that no one has, but nothing I&#039;ve read so far appears to answer the question either way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone actually done a DNA test on Pando or examine his (you know <a href="http://discovermagazine.com/1993/oct/thetremblinggian285" rel="nofollow">Pando is male</a>, right?) roots?  I&#8217;ve been told that no one has, but nothing I&#8217;ve read so far appears to answer the question either way.</p>
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		<title>By: John R Ramsden</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71308</link>
		<dc:creator>John R Ramsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71308</guid>
		<description>Compared with this, the 5000 year old &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sacredconnections.co.uk/holyland/fortingallyew.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fortingall Yew Tree&lt;/a&gt; in Scotland, which also clones itself by root propagation, is barely into its teens!

Following on from Thomas&#039;s point above, I thought most of Utah was covered in glaciers during the last ice age, and the remainder covered by Lake Bonneville (whose remnant is the Salt Lake that gives its name to Salt Lake City). But evidently there must have been a few patches of vegetation here and there, including this oversized bush.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Compared with this, the 5000 year old <a href="http://www.sacredconnections.co.uk/holyland/fortingallyew.htm" rel="nofollow">Fortingall Yew Tree</a> in Scotland, which also clones itself by root propagation, is barely into its teens!</p>
<p>Following on from Thomas&#8217;s point above, I thought most of Utah was covered in glaciers during the last ice age, and the remainder covered by Lake Bonneville (whose remnant is the Salt Lake that gives its name to Salt Lake City). But evidently there must have been a few patches of vegetation here and there, including this oversized bush.</p>
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		<title>By: blueshifter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71289</link>
		<dc:creator>blueshifter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71289</guid>
		<description>I think saying that a bacterium is &#039;millions of years old&#039; and we are not is making an essentialist mistake. We are, every single multicellular organism (MCO), in a very real sense, nothing more than a colony of genetically identical bacteria. If we reproduce, we never die, the germ line goes on and regenerates another MCO as an offspring, just with some admixture of genetic data from our species&#039; gene pool.  But even after the sex, the majority of the genetic code is just like the parent.  but the life itself, is as old as the age of the event when life originated. And this is true for every living cell/bacteria on the planet.  So, happy 3.6 billionth birthday, everybody (give or take)!!!

See what i mean? to say that MCO are different from Unicellulars begs the question &#039;how&#039;? The distinction implied in your post seems to be sexual vs. asexual reproduction.  What about lateral gene transfer then? does that break the magic line of how much genetic difference constitutes a &#039;new&#039; organism? diploidy? single point mutation? it&#039;s all arbitrary.  we can put labels on it for convenience&#039;s sake; but really - we are all really, really, really old.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think saying that a bacterium is &#8216;millions of years old&#8217; and we are not is making an essentialist mistake. We are, every single multicellular organism (MCO), in a very real sense, nothing more than a colony of genetically identical bacteria. If we reproduce, we never die, the germ line goes on and regenerates another MCO as an offspring, just with some admixture of genetic data from our species&#8217; gene pool.  But even after the sex, the majority of the genetic code is just like the parent.  but the life itself, is as old as the age of the event when life originated. And this is true for every living cell/bacteria on the planet.  So, happy 3.6 billionth birthday, everybody (give or take)!!!</p>
<p>See what i mean? to say that MCO are different from Unicellulars begs the question &#8216;how&#8217;? The distinction implied in your post seems to be sexual vs. asexual reproduction.  What about lateral gene transfer then? does that break the magic line of how much genetic difference constitutes a &#8216;new&#8217; organism? diploidy? single point mutation? it&#8217;s all arbitrary.  we can put labels on it for convenience&#8217;s sake; but really &#8211; we are all really, really, really old.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan McCandliss</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71115</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan McCandliss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71115</guid>
		<description>Biological systems aside; the similarities of a massive root ball or fungal mycelium to the &quot;Web&quot; are striking and beg the question, &quot;Is the internet alive?&quot;  It certainly is massive, growing and evolving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Biological systems aside; the similarities of a massive root ball or fungal mycelium to the &#8220;Web&#8221; are striking and beg the question, &#8220;Is the internet alive?&#8221;  It certainly is massive, growing and evolving.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Helbig</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71086</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Helbig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71086</guid>
		<description>&quot;I am not an expert, but I think that, from a gene’s-eye-view, the benefit of sexual reproduction is still a bit of a mystery. In Dawkins’s Selfish Gene book, he argues that selection takes place at the level of the gene. A gene only cares about what happens to the species up to the point that it benefits itself; but in sexual reproduction, a gene only has 50% chance of being passed on.&quot;

While it is fine that for people who don&#039;t work in the field, Dawkins is the first word on
evolution, he shouldn&#039;t be the last word.  Note that his &quot;selfish gene&quot; idea is NOT
universally accepted among researchers in the field, at least not with the enthusiasm
he has for it.

See, for example, Stephen Jay Gould&#039;s magnum opus THE STRUCTURE OF EVOLUTIONARY
THEORY.  I&#039;m sure he has also discussed this at a less technical level in some of his
natural history essays, but I don&#039;t have the titles offhand.

Note: Gould&#039;s side of the story might, of course, be biased in Gould&#039;s favour, but it is
certainly not more biased than Dawkins&#039;s version.  Gould explicitly addresses Dawkins&#039;s
view; I don&#039;t know if Dawkins has ever responded and addressed Gould&#039;s view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am not an expert, but I think that, from a gene’s-eye-view, the benefit of sexual reproduction is still a bit of a mystery. In Dawkins’s Selfish Gene book, he argues that selection takes place at the level of the gene. A gene only cares about what happens to the species up to the point that it benefits itself; but in sexual reproduction, a gene only has 50% chance of being passed on.&#8221;</p>
<p>While it is fine that for people who don&#8217;t work in the field, Dawkins is the first word on<br />
evolution, he shouldn&#8217;t be the last word.  Note that his &#8220;selfish gene&#8221; idea is NOT<br />
universally accepted among researchers in the field, at least not with the enthusiasm<br />
he has for it.</p>
<p>See, for example, Stephen Jay Gould&#8217;s magnum opus THE STRUCTURE OF EVOLUTIONARY<br />
THEORY.  I&#8217;m sure he has also discussed this at a less technical level in some of his<br />
natural history essays, but I don&#8217;t have the titles offhand.</p>
<p>Note: Gould&#8217;s side of the story might, of course, be biased in Gould&#8217;s favour, but it is<br />
certainly not more biased than Dawkins&#8217;s version.  Gould explicitly addresses Dawkins&#8217;s<br />
view; I don&#8217;t know if Dawkins has ever responded and addressed Gould&#8217;s view.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71064</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 08:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71064</guid>
		<description>Andy,
&lt;blockquote&gt;I am not an expert, but I think that, from a gene’s-eye-view, the benefit of sexual reproduction is still a bit of a mystery. In Dawkins’s Selfish Gene book, he argues that selection takes place at the level of the gene. A gene only cares about what happens to the species up to the point that it benefits itself; but in sexual reproduction, a gene only has 50% chance of being passed on.

Why are we not all asexual and immortal?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
It&#039;s been hypothesized (I don&#039;t know how much evidence is yet available) that sexual reproduction in plants and animals arose as a result of competition against parasites.  Parasites, with such dramatically faster reproductive cycles, can easily out-evolve their hosts.  If the next generation has the same genetic makeup as the previous, then the parasites just continue to evolve while the hosts&#039; immune system stays nearly the same, and the hosts die.

If, by contrast, the hosts engage in recombination, then the genetic makeup of their descendants is different, and the parasites are forced to evolve all over again to survive in the presence of their new host.  This gives sexually-produced young an advantage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy,</p>
<blockquote><p>I am not an expert, but I think that, from a gene’s-eye-view, the benefit of sexual reproduction is still a bit of a mystery. In Dawkins’s Selfish Gene book, he argues that selection takes place at the level of the gene. A gene only cares about what happens to the species up to the point that it benefits itself; but in sexual reproduction, a gene only has 50% chance of being passed on.</p>
<p>Why are we not all asexual and immortal?</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s been hypothesized (I don&#8217;t know how much evidence is yet available) that sexual reproduction in plants and animals arose as a result of competition against parasites.  Parasites, with such dramatically faster reproductive cycles, can easily out-evolve their hosts.  If the next generation has the same genetic makeup as the previous, then the parasites just continue to evolve while the hosts&#8217; immune system stays nearly the same, and the hosts die.</p>
<p>If, by contrast, the hosts engage in recombination, then the genetic makeup of their descendants is different, and the parasites are forced to evolve all over again to survive in the presence of their new host.  This gives sexually-produced young an advantage.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71061</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 08:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71061</guid>
		<description>Impressive that it could survive the climate shift from an ice age to an interglacial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Impressive that it could survive the climate shift from an ice age to an interglacial.</p>
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		<title>By: Q</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71055</link>
		<dc:creator>Q</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71055</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt; Andy, I&#039;m not an expert too but: 
I supose in long range scale sexual reproduction could be better than asexual even from the gene&#039;s point of view.  The point is that in asexual reproduction genes change faster than in sexual. But they don&#039;t like do so;) They&#039;d like to be remain unchanged. The sexual reproduction colud be the measure to gain higher rate of permanence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>> Andy, I&#8217;m not an expert too but:<br />
I supose in long range scale sexual reproduction could be better than asexual even from the gene&#8217;s point of view.  The point is that in asexual reproduction genes change faster than in sexual. But they don&#8217;t like do so;) They&#8217;d like to be remain unchanged. The sexual reproduction colud be the measure to gain higher rate of permanence.</p>
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		<title>By: Dileep</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71053</link>
		<dc:creator>Dileep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71053</guid>
		<description>While relatively immune to mild forest fires and such, a single disease which the particular gene makeup is susceptible to, can wipe the whole being off the face of the Earth.  However, a Telomere count at various parts of the thing would be an interesting exercise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While relatively immune to mild forest fires and such, a single disease which the particular gene makeup is susceptible to, can wipe the whole being off the face of the Earth.  However, a Telomere count at various parts of the thing would be an interesting exercise.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaz&#8217;s Lifestream &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Daily Digest for 2009-04-08</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71049</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaz&#8217;s Lifestream &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Daily Digest for 2009-04-08</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71049</guid>
		<description>[...] Shared a link on Google Reader. The Earth’s Elder [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Shared a link on Google Reader. The Earth’s Elder [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ellipsis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71018</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellipsis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 00:47:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71018</guid>
		<description>Could probably feed all the fireplaces in the U.S. for an evening...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could probably feed all the fireplaces in the U.S. for an evening&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-71001</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-71001</guid>
		<description>meichenl: One difference is that with a single-trunked tree, the organism still has a single point of dependency, i.e. the trunk. A forest fire (or a few minutes with a chainsaw) can still take out the whole. Pando does not appear to have any single sub-part upon which everything else depends, so presumably a forest fire would have to consume nearly all tree stems in 100+ acres order for Pando to not survive. It&#039;s still a possibility, of course, but the odds just don&#039;t compare to that of a single-stem tree.

Mutation is ultimately a concern, but not on the kind of time scales we&#039;re usually talking about with trees. And even then, harmful mutations are unlikely to get preserved in the long term, as natural selection works its inexorable logic on the cells of each part of the organism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>meichenl: One difference is that with a single-trunked tree, the organism still has a single point of dependency, i.e. the trunk. A forest fire (or a few minutes with a chainsaw) can still take out the whole. Pando does not appear to have any single sub-part upon which everything else depends, so presumably a forest fire would have to consume nearly all tree stems in 100+ acres order for Pando to not survive. It&#8217;s still a possibility, of course, but the odds just don&#8217;t compare to that of a single-stem tree.</p>
<p>Mutation is ultimately a concern, but not on the kind of time scales we&#8217;re usually talking about with trees. And even then, harmful mutations are unlikely to get preserved in the long term, as natural selection works its inexorable logic on the cells of each part of the organism.</p>
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		<title>By: Sili</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-70993</link>
		<dc:creator>Sili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-70993</guid>
		<description>Make up your mind. Is an aspen or an elder?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make up your mind. Is an aspen or an elder?</p>
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		<title>By: A big frakking plant &#171; A Man With A Ph.D.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-70987</link>
		<dc:creator>A big frakking plant &#171; A Man With A Ph.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-70987</guid>
		<description>[...] big frakking&#160;plant April 8, 2009 &#8212; Richard    by dpatricklewis The Earth’s Elder: [Via Discover Magazine &#124; RSS] The largest organism on Earth, and probably the oldest multicellular [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] big frakking&nbsp;plant April 8, 2009 &#8212; Richard    by dpatricklewis The Earth’s Elder: [Via Discover Magazine | RSS] The largest organism on Earth, and probably the oldest multicellular [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Supernova</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-70985</link>
		<dc:creator>Supernova</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-70985</guid>
		<description>(Geek alert!)  They should have named it Fangorn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Geek alert!)  They should have named it Fangorn.</p>
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		<title>By: Successful Researcher</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-70981</link>
		<dc:creator>Successful Researcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-70981</guid>
		<description>Thanks for an interesting post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for an interesting post!</p>
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		<title>By: johnn costello</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-70979</link>
		<dc:creator>johnn costello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-70979</guid>
		<description>what about creosote</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what about creosote</p>
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		<title>By: meichenl</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-70978</link>
		<dc:creator>meichenl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-70978</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand the logic on why Pando should be able to live forever. Shouldn&#039;t it be suseptible to aging like anything else?  Pando still loses genetic information over time due to mutations. Eventually it should lose too much and become unviable. Having one root system and many trees does not seem fundamentally different from one tree and many branches. Just because a branch can die while the tree lives on does not mean the tree is immortal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand the logic on why Pando should be able to live forever. Shouldn&#8217;t it be suseptible to aging like anything else?  Pando still loses genetic information over time due to mutations. Eventually it should lose too much and become unviable. Having one root system and many trees does not seem fundamentally different from one tree and many branches. Just because a branch can die while the tree lives on does not mean the tree is immortal.</p>
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		<title>By: funguy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-70973</link>
		<dc:creator>funguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-70973</guid>
		<description>don&#039;t forget about this giant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillaria_ostoyae

probably doesn&#039;t rival in age, but certainly contends for the biomass record</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>don&#8217;t forget about this giant<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillaria_ostoyae" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillaria_ostoyae</a></p>
<p>probably doesn&#8217;t rival in age, but certainly contends for the biomass record</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/comment-page-1/#comment-70970</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/04/08/the-earths-elder/#comment-70970</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s to linking to stuff that&#039;s cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s to linking to stuff that&#8217;s cool.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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