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	<title>Comments on: Catching the waves</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Barely Excited &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-88592</link>
		<dc:creator>Barely Excited &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-88592</guid>
		<description>[...] purpose of the LIGO experiment is to search for gravitational waves in the universe. They haven&#8217;t found any yet, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] purpose of the LIGO experiment is to search for gravitational waves in the universe. They haven&#8217;t found any yet, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt S.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-82506</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-82506</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s also a gravitational wave detector located in Germany, called GEO 600. The arm-length is shorter than LIGO or VIRGO, but they used some nifty tricks to get sensitivity up to almost the level of LIGO (well, a magnitude lower, but still not bad).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s also a gravitational wave detector located in Germany, called GEO 600. The arm-length is shorter than LIGO or VIRGO, but they used some nifty tricks to get sensitivity up to almost the level of LIGO (well, a magnitude lower, but still not bad).</p>
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		<title>By: Gravitational Wave Astronomy Summer School &#171; Brute Force Physics</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81908</link>
		<dc:creator>Gravitational Wave Astronomy Summer School &#171; Brute Force Physics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81908</guid>
		<description>[...] gravitational waves will be made in the next few years.  If professional physics conferences like the one Daniel at CV posted on the other day are anything like this, I see why there are so many of them.  If you are an upper [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] gravitational waves will be made in the next few years.  If professional physics conferences like the one Daniel at CV posted on the other day are anything like this, I see why there are so many of them.  If you are an upper [...]</p>
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		<title>By: coolstar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81713</link>
		<dc:creator>coolstar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81713</guid>
		<description>A sobering footnote to the discovery of the first binary pulsar is that Hulse was unable to find an academic post in physics and astronomy.  He did apparently work for many years at the Princeton Plasma Physics lab as did Congresscritter Dr. Rush Holt.  I&#039;d bet hard currency that Swarthmore now boasts of turning down Dr. Holt (a good congressperson and a good person, period)  for tenure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A sobering footnote to the discovery of the first binary pulsar is that Hulse was unable to find an academic post in physics and astronomy.  He did apparently work for many years at the Princeton Plasma Physics lab as did Congresscritter Dr. Rush Holt.  I&#8217;d bet hard currency that Swarthmore now boasts of turning down Dr. Holt (a good congressperson and a good person, period)  for tenure.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian137</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81590</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian137</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81590</guid>
		<description>Apparently, Advanced LIGO will be so sensitive that quantum effects will become significant.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/33755</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently, Advanced LIGO will be so sensitive that quantum effects will become significant.<br />
<a href="http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/33755" rel="nofollow">http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/33755</a></p>
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		<title>By: hanfordgradstudent</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81581</link>
		<dc:creator>hanfordgradstudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81581</guid>
		<description>nota bene:  The spike at ~340Hz is a collection of lines from the vibration of the wires which are used to suspend the optics like pendula.  The reason that it looks like a single peak is because the frequencies of the vibrations from each optic&#039;s wires are very similar and the resolution of this noise curve is too poor to differentiate them.  What frequency those vibrations appear as noise is dependent on what material the wires are made of and how thick they are.  The thinner the wire, the lower the frequency of that noise peak.

Human hearing is an incredibly useful tool that is regularly used in LIGO.  Staff at the observatories often plug the output of the interferometer into an audio-mixer and listen on a pair of headphones.  One does not need to pitch up the output since human hearing ranges from 20Hz to 20kHz, which covers the entire spectrum in Dan&#039;s plot up at the top of the post.  Audio is used to diagnose problems in detector subsystems and investigate short (non-gravitational wave) blips in the data called glitches.  The gravitational wave signals we are looking for, such as coalescence of a binary star system will have frequencies in the audio band.  There are few websites where you can listen to simulated signals.  Just check out http://www.ligo.org.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nota bene:  The spike at ~340Hz is a collection of lines from the vibration of the wires which are used to suspend the optics like pendula.  The reason that it looks like a single peak is because the frequencies of the vibrations from each optic&#8217;s wires are very similar and the resolution of this noise curve is too poor to differentiate them.  What frequency those vibrations appear as noise is dependent on what material the wires are made of and how thick they are.  The thinner the wire, the lower the frequency of that noise peak.</p>
<p>Human hearing is an incredibly useful tool that is regularly used in LIGO.  Staff at the observatories often plug the output of the interferometer into an audio-mixer and listen on a pair of headphones.  One does not need to pitch up the output since human hearing ranges from 20Hz to 20kHz, which covers the entire spectrum in Dan&#8217;s plot up at the top of the post.  Audio is used to diagnose problems in detector subsystems and investigate short (non-gravitational wave) blips in the data called glitches.  The gravitational wave signals we are looking for, such as coalescence of a binary star system will have frequencies in the audio band.  There are few websites where you can listen to simulated signals.  Just check out <a href="http://www.ligo.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.ligo.org</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Optickal</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81527</link>
		<dc:creator>Optickal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81527</guid>
		<description>The comments have made the essential point that not only do you need high sensitivity but also high isolation from noise to see these incredibly tiny distortions in spacetime.  LIGO&#039;s environmental channels, which monitor ambient noise, show that wave motion and oceanic storms a thousand miles distant can be picked up by LIGO&#039;s sensors.   

LIGO will indeed start a new observational run this month, with a sensitivity about twice that of the previous run (which was, by the way, at better than design sensitivity!).  This run will last about 1-1/2 years, so an indisputable &quot;event&quot; just might be seen, but that observation would still be fortuitous.  We&#039;re all banking on Advanced LIGO, which will go online in 2014-2015 and will probe a volume of space 1000 times greater than LIGO could; but even then, it will take some time for the observatories to reach optimum sensitivity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comments have made the essential point that not only do you need high sensitivity but also high isolation from noise to see these incredibly tiny distortions in spacetime.  LIGO&#8217;s environmental channels, which monitor ambient noise, show that wave motion and oceanic storms a thousand miles distant can be picked up by LIGO&#8217;s sensors.   </p>
<p>LIGO will indeed start a new observational run this month, with a sensitivity about twice that of the previous run (which was, by the way, at better than design sensitivity!).  This run will last about 1-1/2 years, so an indisputable &#8220;event&#8221; just might be seen, but that observation would still be fortuitous.  We&#8217;re all banking on Advanced LIGO, which will go online in 2014-2015 and will probe a volume of space 1000 times greater than LIGO could; but even then, it will take some time for the observatories to reach optimum sensitivity.</p>
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		<title>By: Arrow</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81487</link>
		<dc:creator>Arrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81487</guid>
		<description>Daniel says &quot;If the ball has always been moving along its current path, there is no new information to transmit. We already know where it will be at the next instant.&quot;

Information is still transmitted - that the ball keeps moving in the same direction, information that there is no change is still information.

&quot;If the ball suddenly accelerates (e.g., it stops moving, or changes direction, or speeds up), then a wave has to propagate to let us know (modulo near field effects).&quot;

I think the point is that near field effects can also transmit information which is not in the form of waves.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel says &#8220;If the ball has always been moving along its current path, there is no new information to transmit. We already know where it will be at the next instant.&#8221;</p>
<p>Information is still transmitted &#8211; that the ball keeps moving in the same direction, information that there is no change is still information.</p>
<p>&#8220;If the ball suddenly accelerates (e.g., it stops moving, or changes direction, or speeds up), then a wave has to propagate to let us know (modulo near field effects).&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the point is that near field effects can also transmit information which is not in the form of waves.</p>
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		<title>By: nota bene</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81479</link>
		<dc:creator>nota bene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81479</guid>
		<description>So LIGO is essentially the most sensitive microphone ever invented. I never thought of it that way. Pretty cool. I wonder if some of the machine&#039;s raw output could be pitched up into audible frequencies. 

What&#039;s the source of the spike in the 5th run between 300 and 400 Hz?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So LIGO is essentially the most sensitive microphone ever invented. I never thought of it that way. Pretty cool. I wonder if some of the machine&#8217;s raw output could be pitched up into audible frequencies. </p>
<p>What&#8217;s the source of the spike in the 5th run between 300 and 400 Hz?</p>
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		<title>By: daniel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81470</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 04:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81470</guid>
		<description>@TimG, hopefully the comments from Chris W. help. Indeed, the electromagnetism example can be quite instructive. An electron in constant velocity motion doesn&#039;t radiate, but an accelerated electron does. Purcell&#039;s undergraduate E&amp;M textbook has a nice discussion of this exact point (with some very helpful pictures). In the same way, the ball rolling along the floor at constant velocity, although it does move the needle on the gravitometer, is not radiating gravitational waves. If the ball has always been moving along its current path, there is no new information to transmit. We already know where it will be at the next instant. If the ball suddenly accelerates (e.g., it stops moving, or changes direction, or speeds up), then a wave has to propagate to let us know (modulo near field effects). In the same manner as the electron. To see this explicitly requires GR; Eanna and Scott have a &lt;a href=&quot;http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0501041&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;nice review&lt;/a&gt; which goes through all the gory details.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TimG, hopefully the comments from Chris W. help. Indeed, the electromagnetism example can be quite instructive. An electron in constant velocity motion doesn&#8217;t radiate, but an accelerated electron does. Purcell&#8217;s undergraduate E&#038;M textbook has a nice discussion of this exact point (with some very helpful pictures). In the same way, the ball rolling along the floor at constant velocity, although it does move the needle on the gravitometer, is not radiating gravitational waves. If the ball has always been moving along its current path, there is no new information to transmit. We already know where it will be at the next instant. If the ball suddenly accelerates (e.g., it stops moving, or changes direction, or speeds up), then a wave has to propagate to let us know (modulo near field effects). In the same manner as the electron. To see this explicitly requires GR; Eanna and Scott have a <a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0501041" rel="nofollow">nice review</a> which goes through all the gory details.</p>
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		<title>By: daniel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81468</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 03:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81468</guid>
		<description>Thanks for all the great comments!
@Brian137, I didn&#039;t realize that LIGO will be back up for a (brief) science run!
@nicolas, Not mentioning Virgo was an oversight.
I&#039;ve added a note at the bottom of the post addressing both of these points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for all the great comments!<br />
@Brian137, I didn&#8217;t realize that LIGO will be back up for a (brief) science run!<br />
@nicolas, Not mentioning Virgo was an oversight.<br />
I&#8217;ve added a note at the bottom of the post addressing both of these points.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris W.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81437</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81437</guid>
		<description>TimG,

Keep it simple. Move the ball of plutonium into interstellar space, where it can just drift along (inertially!) at constant velocity with no intrinsic angular momentum.

Here is something to think about (and again, consider electrostatics, magnetostatics, and electrodynamics, where the mass of the ball is replaced by a spherically symmetric electric charge). If the ball is moving at constant velocity, then there is an inertial reference frame in which it isn&#039;t moving at all. In this frame the associated field is static; it changes with position (distance from the ball) but not with time. In a different frame the associated field is changing with time.

In fact, in electrodynamics, you actually have an electric and magnetic field vector at each point. Maxwell&#039;s equations determine what the magnitude and direction of the vectors will be. The finite speed of propagation of light is (from this perspective---more about that in a moment) a consequence of Maxwell&#039;s equations. The magnitude and direction of the field vectors at some distance D away from the moving ball will, roughly speaking, reflect where the ball was at an earlier time (a time D / c, where c is the speed of light).

As I indicated, from the perspective of the late 19th century the finiteness of the speed of light---ie, the speed of propagation of electromagnetic &quot;disturbances&quot;---was a consequence of Maxwell&#039;s equations. Of course this is what got Einstein thinking at age 16. He took Galileo&#039;s principle of relativity of inertial frames seriously, but he couldn&#039;t see how Maxwell&#039;s equations could be invariant under the coordinate transformations everyone assumed should apply to Newtonian mechanics (and Newton&#039;s theory of gravitation). He gradually realized that the coordinate transformations had to be different for Maxwell&#039;s equations, in such a way as to leave the speed of light both finite and invariant under those transformations. &lt;em&gt;From this perspective the finite speed of propagation of electromagnetic disturbances is a consequence of the relativistic invariance of the laws governing electrodynamic fields.&lt;/em&gt;

However, Einstein felt that Galileo&#039;s relativity had to hold for all the laws of physics, and this could only be possible if Newton&#039;s mechanics, and ultimately his theory of gravitation, were changed. And so he set about reformulating them. Elementary mechanics in the absence of gravitation was comparatively easy. Gravitation presented much deeper difficulties...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TimG,</p>
<p>Keep it simple. Move the ball of plutonium into interstellar space, where it can just drift along (inertially!) at constant velocity with no intrinsic angular momentum.</p>
<p>Here is something to think about (and again, consider electrostatics, magnetostatics, and electrodynamics, where the mass of the ball is replaced by a spherically symmetric electric charge). If the ball is moving at constant velocity, then there is an inertial reference frame in which it isn&#8217;t moving at all. In this frame the associated field is static; it changes with position (distance from the ball) but not with time. In a different frame the associated field is changing with time.</p>
<p>In fact, in electrodynamics, you actually have an electric and magnetic field vector at each point. Maxwell&#8217;s equations determine what the magnitude and direction of the vectors will be. The finite speed of propagation of light is (from this perspective&#8212;more about that in a moment) a consequence of Maxwell&#8217;s equations. The magnitude and direction of the field vectors at some distance D away from the moving ball will, roughly speaking, reflect where the ball was at an earlier time (a time D / c, where c is the speed of light).</p>
<p>As I indicated, from the perspective of the late 19th century the finiteness of the speed of light&#8212;ie, the speed of propagation of electromagnetic &#8220;disturbances&#8221;&#8212;was a consequence of Maxwell&#8217;s equations. Of course this is what got Einstein thinking at age 16. He took Galileo&#8217;s principle of relativity of inertial frames seriously, but he couldn&#8217;t see how Maxwell&#8217;s equations could be invariant under the coordinate transformations everyone assumed should apply to Newtonian mechanics (and Newton&#8217;s theory of gravitation). He gradually realized that the coordinate transformations had to be different for Maxwell&#8217;s equations, in such a way as to leave the speed of light both finite and invariant under those transformations. <em>From this perspective the finite speed of propagation of electromagnetic disturbances is a consequence of the relativistic invariance of the laws governing electrodynamic fields.</em></p>
<p>However, Einstein felt that Galileo&#8217;s relativity had to hold for all the laws of physics, and this could only be possible if Newton&#8217;s mechanics, and ultimately his theory of gravitation, were changed. And so he set about reformulating them. Elementary mechanics in the absence of gravitation was comparatively easy. Gravitation presented much deeper difficulties&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: shantanu</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81429</link>
		<dc:creator>shantanu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81429</guid>
		<description>BTW , although the speed of gravity is a very &lt;a href=&quot;http://wugrav.wustl.edu/people/CMW/SpeedofGravity.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;dicey&lt;/a&gt; concept, what Daniel has
mentioned in the previous article that gravitational waves propagate at the speed of light is not strictly correct. Gravitational waves (like light) get slowed due to gravitational potential of all the intervening matter along the line of slight(aka Shapiro delay)
as they propagate from the source to the Earth. This delay is 
approximately &lt;a href=&quot;http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v60/i3/p173_1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;5 months&lt;/a&gt; for SN-1987A distance of about 50 kpc.
  
If you read I. Shapiro&#039;s 1964 paper where Shapiro delay was introduced, the first para states  &quot;the speed of light depends on strength of gravitational potential along its path&quot;
Now same argument applies to gravitational waves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW , although the speed of gravity is a very <a href="http://wugrav.wustl.edu/people/CMW/SpeedofGravity.html" rel="nofollow">dicey</a> concept, what Daniel has<br />
mentioned in the previous article that gravitational waves propagate at the speed of light is not strictly correct. Gravitational waves (like light) get slowed due to gravitational potential of all the intervening matter along the line of slight(aka Shapiro delay)<br />
as they propagate from the source to the Earth. This delay is<br />
approximately <a href="http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v60/i3/p173_1" rel="nofollow">5 months</a> for SN-1987A distance of about 50 kpc.</p>
<p>If you read I. Shapiro&#8217;s 1964 paper where Shapiro delay was introduced, the first para states  &#8220;the speed of light depends on strength of gravitational potential along its path&#8221;<br />
Now same argument applies to gravitational waves.</p>
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		<title>By: TimG</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81417</link>
		<dc:creator>TimG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81417</guid>
		<description>Chris W.,

I&#039;m OK with the idea that the change in the field propagates at the speed of light, as in electrodynamics.  Arrow&#039;s comment states what I&#039;m getting at more explicitly, which is this: If this propagating change requires gravitational waves (as Daniel seemed to be saying), why does it seem like it works just as well in the constant velocity case (where, correct me if I&#039;m wrong, no gravitational waves would be produced)?

(Good point that rolling involves acceleration.  I guess I should have said &quot;the bowling ball slides along some frictionless ice&quot;, although that&#039;s not a very natural image when it comes to bowling balls.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris W.,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m OK with the idea that the change in the field propagates at the speed of light, as in electrodynamics.  Arrow&#8217;s comment states what I&#8217;m getting at more explicitly, which is this: If this propagating change requires gravitational waves (as Daniel seemed to be saying), why does it seem like it works just as well in the constant velocity case (where, correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, no gravitational waves would be produced)?</p>
<p>(Good point that rolling involves acceleration.  I guess I should have said &#8220;the bowling ball slides along some frictionless ice&#8221;, although that&#8217;s not a very natural image when it comes to bowling balls.)</p>
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		<title>By: grbiersema</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81412</link>
		<dc:creator>grbiersema</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81412</guid>
		<description>Exciting stuff. The detection in the last 2 years of several new galactic SGRs (rather unexpected) with Fermi and Swift may help in increasing the odds on a giant flare from the local group - if i understand correctly, that may generate observable signals.  Perhaps also good to mention that the pulsar timing array efforts are really getting very sensitive now, and may well detect gravitational waves before LIGO/VIRGO and LISA (well, the gravitational wave background at low frequencies, that is).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exciting stuff. The detection in the last 2 years of several new galactic SGRs (rather unexpected) with Fermi and Swift may help in increasing the odds on a giant flare from the local group &#8211; if i understand correctly, that may generate observable signals.  Perhaps also good to mention that the pulsar timing array efforts are really getting very sensitive now, and may well detect gravitational waves before LIGO/VIRGO and LISA (well, the gravitational wave background at low frequencies, that is).</p>
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		<title>By: hanfordgradstudent</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81411</link>
		<dc:creator>hanfordgradstudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81411</guid>
		<description>Oded,
What you see above in Dan&#039;s post is the noise of the detector read from the channel sensitive to gravitational waves.  

The chambers in which the instrument sits are resting on a foundation of several feet of concrete separate from the walls of the building.  One also has a complicated passive (and active in Louisiana) seismic isolation system made up of primarily springs and pendula.  The beam tube in which the laser is enclosed is itself enclosed within a few inches of concrete.  The chambers that hold the optics are placed in buildings in which the temperatures are regulated to within a single degree.

Each noise source has some characteristic frequencies.  Large far-away earthquakes shake the ground at frequencies between 0.03 and 0.1Hz, while the wind and traffic show up in the 1-3Hz seismic band.  The isolation systems at LIGO do an incredible job reducing the ground motion&#039;s effect on the mirrors by factors more than a million.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oded,<br />
What you see above in Dan&#8217;s post is the noise of the detector read from the channel sensitive to gravitational waves.  </p>
<p>The chambers in which the instrument sits are resting on a foundation of several feet of concrete separate from the walls of the building.  One also has a complicated passive (and active in Louisiana) seismic isolation system made up of primarily springs and pendula.  The beam tube in which the laser is enclosed is itself enclosed within a few inches of concrete.  The chambers that hold the optics are placed in buildings in which the temperatures are regulated to within a single degree.</p>
<p>Each noise source has some characteristic frequencies.  Large far-away earthquakes shake the ground at frequencies between 0.03 and 0.1Hz, while the wind and traffic show up in the 1-3Hz seismic band.  The isolation systems at LIGO do an incredible job reducing the ground motion&#8217;s effect on the mirrors by factors more than a million.</p>
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		<title>By: Oded</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81399</link>
		<dc:creator>Oded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81399</guid>
		<description>A thousand&#039;s of the size of a proton.
That did of course, blow my mind. More than the New York-San Francisco thing.

At that accuracy, how do you rule out noise? Even wind on the building or heating by the sun could completely rule this domain, so how do you get by?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A thousand&#8217;s of the size of a proton.<br />
That did of course, blow my mind. More than the New York-San Francisco thing.</p>
<p>At that accuracy, how do you rule out noise? Even wind on the building or heating by the sun could completely rule this domain, so how do you get by?</p>
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		<title>By: Arrow</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81398</link>
		<dc:creator>Arrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81398</guid>
		<description>TimG is right in that the thought experiment mentioned does not demonstrate gravitational waves have to exist. The detector will detect movement even for constant velocity motion which does not create gravitational waves so the fact that something informs it about the movement is not a proof that gravitational radiation exists. Rather it shows that spacetime curvature changes (which don&#039;t have to have the form of waves) can propagate from the source to the detector.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TimG is right in that the thought experiment mentioned does not demonstrate gravitational waves have to exist. The detector will detect movement even for constant velocity motion which does not create gravitational waves so the fact that something informs it about the movement is not a proof that gravitational radiation exists. Rather it shows that spacetime curvature changes (which don&#8217;t have to have the form of waves) can propagate from the source to the detector.</p>
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		<title>By: Jimbo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81397</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81397</guid>
		<description>HanfordGradStudent: That&#039;s comforting to know that Livingston is worse than Hanford, which is anything but geologically benign....
A Richter 6.8 quake there in 2001 caused serious misalignment to many optical systems, requiring 3 months to repair.  This March, over 280 small quakes have peppered the entire region, causing glitches in electronic systems. What if a similar mini-disaster should occur during an actual science run, attempting to capture a rare event ?  Meanwhile volcanoes percolate...
  As mindboggling is a recent study by a high school student to model the impact on LIGO-Hanford performance during seismic disturbances.  Worse still, the report acknowledges there were NO other prior studies of such !  Simply incredible: No one bothered studying this critical issue prior to site selection/construction, and then they bring a HS student in to do it !??!!
Sounds like a joke, but its for real.
This is in keeping with last years big press release,in a vacuum of direct detection data, that LIGO had been able to constrain sphericity limits on neutron stars.  Translation: We cannot detect grav waves, but IF they emanated from sizeable surface topographies on neutron stars, we&#039;d have seen it...?  Oh Yeah ?
If you cannot see ANY signals, how can you claim to set a limit deduced from data only obtainable from such signals ? Sheer feel-good tomfoolery to obtain good press coverage &amp; placate the doubters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HanfordGradStudent: That&#8217;s comforting to know that Livingston is worse than Hanford, which is anything but geologically benign&#8230;.<br />
A Richter 6.8 quake there in 2001 caused serious misalignment to many optical systems, requiring 3 months to repair.  This March, over 280 small quakes have peppered the entire region, causing glitches in electronic systems. What if a similar mini-disaster should occur during an actual science run, attempting to capture a rare event ?  Meanwhile volcanoes percolate&#8230;<br />
  As mindboggling is a recent study by a high school student to model the impact on LIGO-Hanford performance during seismic disturbances.  Worse still, the report acknowledges there were NO other prior studies of such !  Simply incredible: No one bothered studying this critical issue prior to site selection/construction, and then they bring a HS student in to do it !??!!<br />
Sounds like a joke, but its for real.<br />
This is in keeping with last years big press release,in a vacuum of direct detection data, that LIGO had been able to constrain sphericity limits on neutron stars.  Translation: We cannot detect grav waves, but IF they emanated from sizeable surface topographies on neutron stars, we&#8217;d have seen it&#8230;?  Oh Yeah ?<br />
If you cannot see ANY signals, how can you claim to set a limit deduced from data only obtainable from such signals ? Sheer feel-good tomfoolery to obtain good press coverage &#038; placate the doubters.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris W.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/05/catching-the-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-81358</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/07/03/catching-the-waves/#comment-81358</guid>
		<description>TimG,

Try thinking about the analogous question in electrodynamics. The same issue arises there. The underlying theories encompass fields associated with a static configuration of sources, a slowly changing configuration, and rapidly changing configurations (with acceleration). Of course the detailed geometry and distribution of the sources is relevant, in general.

(PS: If the bowling ball is rolling, then most of it is being accelerated around its axis of rotation, although this is beside the point.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TimG,</p>
<p>Try thinking about the analogous question in electrodynamics. The same issue arises there. The underlying theories encompass fields associated with a static configuration of sources, a slowly changing configuration, and rapidly changing configurations (with acceleration). Of course the detailed geometry and distribution of the sources is relevant, in general.</p>
<p>(PS: If the bowling ball is rolling, then most of it is being accelerated around its axis of rotation, although this is beside the point.)</p>
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