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	<title>Comments on: The Arrow of Time:  Still a Puzzle</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:59:24 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: r721</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-94833</link>
		<dc:creator>r721</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-94833</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a new paper on the subject:
http://arxiv.org/abs/0909.1726
Comment on `Quantum resolution to the arrow of time dilemma&#039;

Recently, a substantial amount of debate has grown up around a proposed quantum resolution to the `arrow of time dilemma&#039; that is based on the role of classical memory records of entropy-decreasing events. In this note we show that the argument is incomplete and furthermore, by providing a counter-example, argue that it is incorrect. Instead of quantum mechanics providing a resolution in the manner suggested, it allows enhanced classical memory records of entropy-decreasing events.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a new paper on the subject:<br />
<a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0909.1726" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/abs/0909.1726</a><br />
Comment on `Quantum resolution to the arrow of time dilemma&#8217;</p>
<p>Recently, a substantial amount of debate has grown up around a proposed quantum resolution to the `arrow of time dilemma&#8217; that is based on the role of classical memory records of entropy-decreasing events. In this note we show that the argument is incomplete and furthermore, by providing a counter-example, argue that it is incorrect. Instead of quantum mechanics providing a resolution in the manner suggested, it allows enhanced classical memory records of entropy-decreasing events.</p>
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		<title>By: jr</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-93145</link>
		<dc:creator>jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-93145</guid>
		<description>it is interesting that nature provides unstable particles , and we want
to create before we annihilate - that recognizes an arrow of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it is interesting that nature provides unstable particles , and we want<br />
to create before we annihilate &#8211; that recognizes an arrow of time.</p>
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		<title>By: boreds</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-93096</link>
		<dc:creator>boreds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-93096</guid>
		<description>Sean, thanks for your response, and I will check out that chapter when I can. 

For what it&#039;s worth, I think the connection between low entropy initial conditions for the universe, and the sense of being able to fix initial conditions for local experiments would make for an awesome blog post. 

I&#039;ve no problem with the mystery of the low entropy early universe---it&#039;s a mystery and something maybe we can figure out. But why do local experiments have the same arrow of time? I think it&#039;d be a fun blog post to explore that and explain where there are gaps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean, thanks for your response, and I will check out that chapter when I can. </p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, I think the connection between low entropy initial conditions for the universe, and the sense of being able to fix initial conditions for local experiments would make for an awesome blog post. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve no problem with the mystery of the low entropy early universe&#8212;it&#8217;s a mystery and something maybe we can figure out. But why do local experiments have the same arrow of time? I think it&#8217;d be a fun blog post to explore that and explain where there are gaps.</p>
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		<title>By: Marco Frasca</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-93071</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco Frasca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-93071</guid>
		<description>About the question of the arrow of time, I have always wondered why a beautiful result as that due to Elliot Lieb and Barry Simon has been always overlooked. This is a theorem implying that quantum mechanics manifests an instability when the number of particles goes to infinity with the system that loses quantum coherence.  The situation devised by Lieb and Simon is similar to the one seen in thermodynamics and so, it is really effective when quantum fluctuations become smaller and smaller increasing the number of particles. This situation is not always true and, indeed one observes large scale coherence.

Such an instability seems to support Lorenzo&#039;s view and what Zeh above claimed essential to understand arrow of time, that is quantum mechanics. Indeed, studies on Loschmidt&#039;s  echo can also  give an experimental support to Lieb and Simon theorem even if, in this particular case, there are other competing views worthwhile to be pursued.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About the question of the arrow of time, I have always wondered why a beautiful result as that due to Elliot Lieb and Barry Simon has been always overlooked. This is a theorem implying that quantum mechanics manifests an instability when the number of particles goes to infinity with the system that loses quantum coherence.  The situation devised by Lieb and Simon is similar to the one seen in thermodynamics and so, it is really effective when quantum fluctuations become smaller and smaller increasing the number of particles. This situation is not always true and, indeed one observes large scale coherence.</p>
<p>Such an instability seems to support Lorenzo&#8217;s view and what Zeh above claimed essential to understand arrow of time, that is quantum mechanics. Indeed, studies on Loschmidt&#8217;s  echo can also  give an experimental support to Lieb and Simon theorem even if, in this particular case, there are other competing views worthwhile to be pursued.</p>
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		<title>By: The question of the arrow of time &#171; The Gauge Connection</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-93054</link>
		<dc:creator>The question of the arrow of time &#171; The Gauge Connection</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 14:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-93054</guid>
		<description>[...] In Cosmic Variance you will find an interesting post and worthwhile to read discussion involving Sean Carroll, Lorenzo [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In Cosmic Variance you will find an interesting post and worthwhile to read discussion involving Sean Carroll, Lorenzo [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Bergman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-92993</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Bergman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 02:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-92993</guid>
		<description>Louis Savain?!?

Wow, that brings back spr flashbacks....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Louis Savain?!?</p>
<p>Wow, that brings back spr flashbacks&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: DaveK</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-92976</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 01:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-92976</guid>
		<description>@Louis Savain:  You might want to check your sources there.  Granted, this is an &quot;ad-hominem&quot; attack, but from the rebelscience.org website, you might want to check out this link:  http://www.rebelscience.org/agenda.htm

Also this one:  http://www.rebelscience.org/Seraphim/Physics.htm

Who needs Einstein when you&#039;ve got Isiah?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Louis Savain:  You might want to check your sources there.  Granted, this is an &#8220;ad-hominem&#8221; attack, but from the rebelscience.org website, you might want to check out this link:  <a href="http://www.rebelscience.org/agenda.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.rebelscience.org/agenda.htm</a></p>
<p>Also this one:  <a href="http://www.rebelscience.org/Seraphim/Physics.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.rebelscience.org/Seraphim/Physics.htm</a></p>
<p>Who needs Einstein when you&#8217;ve got Isiah?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Somerville</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-92896</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Somerville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-92896</guid>
		<description>The folks at Physics Forum have provided a link to this article on Time Symmetry which LOOKS like it&#039;s working in the same general area.  They don&#039;t characterize the physics as a &quot;pendulum of time,&quot; but they&#039;re asking the same questions and getting to some of the same answers I&#039;ve been groping towards.  The problem is, they&#039;ve written 58 pages of math I can&#039;t follow.  Can you decipher this for us laymen, Sean?  (Maybe a whole new post, hint, hint?)

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.1232v1.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The folks at Physics Forum have provided a link to this article on Time Symmetry which LOOKS like it&#8217;s working in the same general area.  They don&#8217;t characterize the physics as a &#8220;pendulum of time,&#8221; but they&#8217;re asking the same questions and getting to some of the same answers I&#8217;ve been groping towards.  The problem is, they&#8217;ve written 58 pages of math I can&#8217;t follow.  Can you decipher this for us laymen, Sean?  (Maybe a whole new post, hint, hint?)</p>
<p><a href="http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.1232v1.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.1232v1.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Scott W. Somerville</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-92879</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott W. Somerville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-92879</guid>
		<description>Sean, I&#039;m a layman who can&#039;t express myself mathematically, but let me try to clarify what I mean by &quot;go backwards in time.&quot;  It doesn&#039;t need a radical departure from conventional physics--just a willingness to get serious about treating time the same as space.  

Start with an extremely simplified &quot;unobserved system&quot; that consists of a single particle moving at some initial velocity towards two slits, with some kind of screen on the other side that can detect the particle.  Instead of treating time as the independent variable and three spatial dimensions as dependent variables, specify a new parametric variable &quot;p.&quot;  The particle&#039;s position and velocity are defined at p=0.  Let the particle&#039;s position and velocity at p=1 be randomly selected from all possible states within the limits of Heisenberg&#039;s uncertainty principle, and then repeat in a &quot;random walk&quot; pattern without any preference for increasing t.  Continue this until something causes the system to &quot;decohere.&quot;  

If we were to plot the path of this paramaterized particle in x, y, and t we would see a &quot;fractal&quot; shape--I think it would look a bit like an old-fashioned shaving brush.

As far as I can tell, this method would generate the interference patterns one sees in a double-slit experiment.  In a system with a detector on one of the slits, the system would decohere the first time the p parameter randomly got the particle out to the detector.  The moment of decoherence would reset the system with the particle now located near one slit, and all possible paths of that particle would now wind up on the screen at the far end looking just like a single particle going through a single slit.

By contrast, a system without a detector at one of the slits would yield an infinite number of different paths from the original starting point to the screen at the far end--but those paths would show just the kind of interference patters that make double-slit experiments so interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean, I&#8217;m a layman who can&#8217;t express myself mathematically, but let me try to clarify what I mean by &#8220;go backwards in time.&#8221;  It doesn&#8217;t need a radical departure from conventional physics&#8211;just a willingness to get serious about treating time the same as space.  </p>
<p>Start with an extremely simplified &#8220;unobserved system&#8221; that consists of a single particle moving at some initial velocity towards two slits, with some kind of screen on the other side that can detect the particle.  Instead of treating time as the independent variable and three spatial dimensions as dependent variables, specify a new parametric variable &#8220;p.&#8221;  The particle&#8217;s position and velocity are defined at p=0.  Let the particle&#8217;s position and velocity at p=1 be randomly selected from all possible states within the limits of Heisenberg&#8217;s uncertainty principle, and then repeat in a &#8220;random walk&#8221; pattern without any preference for increasing t.  Continue this until something causes the system to &#8220;decohere.&#8221;  </p>
<p>If we were to plot the path of this paramaterized particle in x, y, and t we would see a &#8220;fractal&#8221; shape&#8211;I think it would look a bit like an old-fashioned shaving brush.</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, this method would generate the interference patterns one sees in a double-slit experiment.  In a system with a detector on one of the slits, the system would decohere the first time the p parameter randomly got the particle out to the detector.  The moment of decoherence would reset the system with the particle now located near one slit, and all possible paths of that particle would now wind up on the screen at the far end looking just like a single particle going through a single slit.</p>
<p>By contrast, a system without a detector at one of the slits would yield an infinite number of different paths from the original starting point to the screen at the far end&#8211;but those paths would show just the kind of interference patters that make double-slit experiments so interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph J</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-92874</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/24/the-arrow-of-time-still-a-puzzle/#comment-92874</guid>
		<description>Maybe a lesser mind and a keener eye is needed. The Time reversal at the quantum scale maybe an illustion. I am not fimiliar with the fore mentioned experiment but the quantum state is a small (pun intended) part of the real world that is not reversible. When two cars pass each other while going in the opposite direction their arrow of Time only appears to be reversed. They both are traveling into the Future even though they are traveling in different directions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe a lesser mind and a keener eye is needed. The Time reversal at the quantum scale maybe an illustion. I am not fimiliar with the fore mentioned experiment but the quantum state is a small (pun intended) part of the real world that is not reversible. When two cars pass each other while going in the opposite direction their arrow of Time only appears to be reversed. They both are traveling into the Future even though they are traveling in different directions.</p>
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