<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: From Eternity to Book Club:  Chapter Thirteen</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 16:30:01 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: TheRadicalModerate</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-119105</link>
		<dc:creator>TheRadicalModerate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-119105</guid>
		<description>If I were to more to a point in the otherwise-empty universe that was very far away from the black hole and try to detect radiation in various orientations, I&#039;d discover that it was mostly (mod some amount of transverse scattering and/or decay) coming from one direction.  Doesn&#039;t that make the radiation anisotropic?

I think I didn&#039;t use the right terminology when I referred to narrowing the state space.  What I really meant to ask was:  If the radiation is anisotropic, doesn&#039;t that exclude a huge number of microstates that could apply to the macrostate, and doesn&#039;t that in turn reduce the entropy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I were to more to a point in the otherwise-empty universe that was very far away from the black hole and try to detect radiation in various orientations, I&#8217;d discover that it was mostly (mod some amount of transverse scattering and/or decay) coming from one direction.  Doesn&#8217;t that make the radiation anisotropic?</p>
<p>I think I didn&#8217;t use the right terminology when I referred to narrowing the state space.  What I really meant to ask was:  If the radiation is anisotropic, doesn&#8217;t that exclude a huge number of microstates that could apply to the macrostate, and doesn&#8217;t that in turn reduce the entropy?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-119069</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-119069</guid>
		<description>I think I agree with all of your preliminary statements, but I don&#039;t understand your conclusions.  Hawking radiation is (on average) emitted radially away from the black hole, so it&#039;s isotropic.  And it doesn&#039;t narrow the state space at all, since the states are in the black hole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I agree with all of your preliminary statements, but I don&#8217;t understand your conclusions.  Hawking radiation is (on average) emitted radially away from the black hole, so it&#8217;s isotropic.  And it doesn&#8217;t narrow the state space at all, since the states are in the black hole.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TheRadicalModerate</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-119066</link>
		<dc:creator>TheRadicalModerate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:09:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-119066</guid>
		<description>I got to thinking about the single-black-hole case in a non-expanding universe.  Sean, your argument here was that the black hole eventually evaporates, and the radiation of evaporation has higher entropy than the black hole it came from.

Knowing absolutely nothing about the Hawking equations, I&#039;m having to reason this out without the math, but it seems to me that any virtual particle that finds itself outside the event horizon does so with a particular energy, some of which is carried as velocity.  Isn&#039;t it the case then that all radiation that succeeds in not being re-gobbled by the hole has to have a velocity whose magnitude is not only greater than the escape velocity of the event horizon, but has a positive normal direction component, with respect to the event horizon, as well?  (Anything with a negative normal component is going to hit the event horizon again, right?)

In the case of One Big Hole, this seems to generate radiation that is anisotropic.  Isn&#039;t that a big no-no?  And, more importantly, doesn&#039;t that significantly narrow the state space, and therefore reduce the entropy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got to thinking about the single-black-hole case in a non-expanding universe.  Sean, your argument here was that the black hole eventually evaporates, and the radiation of evaporation has higher entropy than the black hole it came from.</p>
<p>Knowing absolutely nothing about the Hawking equations, I&#8217;m having to reason this out without the math, but it seems to me that any virtual particle that finds itself outside the event horizon does so with a particular energy, some of which is carried as velocity.  Isn&#8217;t it the case then that all radiation that succeeds in not being re-gobbled by the hole has to have a velocity whose magnitude is not only greater than the escape velocity of the event horizon, but has a positive normal direction component, with respect to the event horizon, as well?  (Anything with a negative normal component is going to hit the event horizon again, right?)</p>
<p>In the case of One Big Hole, this seems to generate radiation that is anisotropic.  Isn&#8217;t that a big no-no?  And, more importantly, doesn&#8217;t that significantly narrow the state space, and therefore reduce the entropy?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Just Learning</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118389</link>
		<dc:creator>Just Learning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:44:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-118389</guid>
		<description>It should also be pointed out that it is in the preservation of quantum information about an entangling event in a nonconservative environment that we begin to see a qualitative link to inertia, eg the resistance to change in state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It should also be pointed out that it is in the preservation of quantum information about an entangling event in a nonconservative environment that we begin to see a qualitative link to inertia, eg the resistance to change in state.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Just Learning</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118390</link>
		<dc:creator>Just Learning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:44:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-118390</guid>
		<description>.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Just Learning</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118383</link>
		<dc:creator>Just Learning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 10:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-118383</guid>
		<description>I want to add that the correct semantical question is whether information about the big bang is preserved.  This is an entirely different question than that of conservation of information.  If we want to get even more specific, what we are asking is whether &lt;i&gt;quantum&lt;/i&gt; information about the big bang is preserved.  That answer is yes, because of all the standard quantum weirdness. Classical information is assuredly not conserved, as it is equivalent to entropy, and in an expanding universe that entropy has no upper bound.  We have then the issue of information being created in the vacuum, and that information must be quantum in nature before it is observed as vacuum.  Thus we start seeing the foundations of quantum gravity arriving in the tug and pull between quantum information associated with single entangling event (the big bang) and the action of new information being produced at a constant rate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to add that the correct semantical question is whether information about the big bang is preserved.  This is an entirely different question than that of conservation of information.  If we want to get even more specific, what we are asking is whether <i>quantum</i> information about the big bang is preserved.  That answer is yes, because of all the standard quantum weirdness. Classical information is assuredly not conserved, as it is equivalent to entropy, and in an expanding universe that entropy has no upper bound.  We have then the issue of information being created in the vacuum, and that information must be quantum in nature before it is observed as vacuum.  Thus we start seeing the foundations of quantum gravity arriving in the tug and pull between quantum information associated with single entangling event (the big bang) and the action of new information being produced at a constant rate.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Just Learning</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118168</link>
		<dc:creator>Just Learning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 00:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-118168</guid>
		<description>If the underlying space is expanding, then the information is not conserved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the underlying space is expanding, then the information is not conserved.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-117915</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-117915</guid>
		<description>KiwiDamien is completely right about how I&#039;m using &quot;information.&quot;  As readers of the book should have figured out by now!

John--  no real impact at all.  The fact that the universe is homogeneous on large scales means that you can pick any comoving &quot;tube&quot; of spacetime, stretching from the Big Bang into the future, and treat it as an approximately closed system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KiwiDamien is completely right about how I&#8217;m using &#8220;information.&#8221;  As readers of the book should have figured out by now!</p>
<p>John&#8211;  no real impact at all.  The fact that the universe is homogeneous on large scales means that you can pick any comoving &#8220;tube&#8221; of spacetime, stretching from the Big Bang into the future, and treat it as an approximately closed system.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John T</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-117910</link>
		<dc:creator>John T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-117910</guid>
		<description>Sean: Since the boundary of the observable universe can be seen as an event horizon, and it continuously gets further out as time since the big bang increases, what impact does that have on entropy and the conservation of information?

What I mean is, every year, even if space itself weren&#039;t expanding, the radius of the observable universe would be expanding by one light year, as light that hadn&#039;t had time to reach us before is now reaching us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean: Since the boundary of the observable universe can be seen as an event horizon, and it continuously gets further out as time since the big bang increases, what impact does that have on entropy and the conservation of information?</p>
<p>What I mean is, every year, even if space itself weren&#8217;t expanding, the radius of the observable universe would be expanding by one light year, as light that hadn&#8217;t had time to reach us before is now reaching us.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: KiwiDamien</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-117900</link>
		<dc:creator>KiwiDamien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-117900</guid>
		<description>Hi Mark,

&quot;Information is conserved&quot; means that if you know the entire state of the system (namely positions and velocities) then you can find the state of the system at any earlier or later time.

The caveat for GR is that we have a lot of freedom for how we label points in spacetime, so to know the &quot;position&quot; it is not enough to just give coordinates but we also have to have some idea of what the coordinates mean. So in addition to the normal coordinates for position and derivatives for velocity, we must also impose some constraints to be able to interpret the coordinates known as gauge-fixing conditions. 

In so far as I know, it is a semantic issue whether you consider &quot;positions&quot; to mean the coordinates + gauge fixing to interpret them, or if you think of the positions as the coordinates. In the former case the information is simply the state of the system (x, v) for all the degrees of freedom, while in the latter case the information is (x,v) for the state of the system and the appropriate gauge fixing conditions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mark,</p>
<p>&#8220;Information is conserved&#8221; means that if you know the entire state of the system (namely positions and velocities) then you can find the state of the system at any earlier or later time.</p>
<p>The caveat for GR is that we have a lot of freedom for how we label points in spacetime, so to know the &#8220;position&#8221; it is not enough to just give coordinates but we also have to have some idea of what the coordinates mean. So in addition to the normal coordinates for position and derivatives for velocity, we must also impose some constraints to be able to interpret the coordinates known as gauge-fixing conditions. </p>
<p>In so far as I know, it is a semantic issue whether you consider &#8220;positions&#8221; to mean the coordinates + gauge fixing to interpret them, or if you think of the positions as the coordinates. In the former case the information is simply the state of the system (x, v) for all the degrees of freedom, while in the latter case the information is (x,v) for the state of the system and the appropriate gauge fixing conditions.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-117832</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 00:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-117832</guid>
		<description>What is meant by &quot;information is conserved?&quot;  What information is being measured?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is meant by &#8220;information is conserved?&#8221;  What information is being measured?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-117817</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 22:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-117817</guid>
		<description>Brian--  I don&#039;t think you need inflation to do that; it&#039;s easy to posit a low-entropy beginning from which our universe could have started, just within the conventional hot Big Bang model.  The supposed improvement was to make this seem &quot;easy&quot; or &quot;natural.&quot;  I&#039;m saying that this impression is a false one, as it&#039;s actually really hard to squeeze the entire universe into the proto-inflationary patch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian&#8211;  I don&#8217;t think you need inflation to do that; it&#8217;s easy to posit a low-entropy beginning from which our universe could have started, just within the conventional hot Big Bang model.  The supposed improvement was to make this seem &#8220;easy&#8221; or &#8220;natural.&#8221;  I&#8217;m saying that this impression is a false one, as it&#8217;s actually really hard to squeeze the entire universe into the proto-inflationary patch.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom Allen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-117805</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-117805</guid>
		<description>I agree with Clifford that you have clarified the conceptual inversion of the relationship of high entropy and inhomogeneity. (The Penrose argument.)

But of all the concepts in this chapter; general relativity, quantum field theory, black holes, etc.; the most bizarre is that of eternity. We can say some things will never happen because they are too improbable, but then eternity turns that on its head and says such things must happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Clifford that you have clarified the conceptual inversion of the relationship of high entropy and inhomogeneity. (The Penrose argument.)</p>
<p>But of all the concepts in this chapter; general relativity, quantum field theory, black holes, etc.; the most bizarre is that of eternity. We can say some things will never happen because they are too improbable, but then eternity turns that on its head and says such things must happen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-117804</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 17:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-117804</guid>
		<description>For a long time I had thought that part of the attraction of inflation was that it allowed you to posit a suddenly-large universe with all the mass still packed into a relatively small space, thus giving you a low-entropy point (from which the universe could start rolling downhill). But apparently this is still a fringe idea...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a long time I had thought that part of the attraction of inflation was that it allowed you to posit a suddenly-large universe with all the mass still packed into a relatively small space, thus giving you a low-entropy point (from which the universe could start rolling downhill). But apparently this is still a fringe idea&#8230;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/06/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-117802</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4525#comment-117802</guid>
		<description>Another fantastic chapter which really helped my understanding of entropy and gravity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another fantastic chapter which really helped my understanding of entropy and gravity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk
Page Caching using disk

Served from: blogs.discovermagazine.com @ 2012-05-25 17:17:13 -->
