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	<title>Comments on: From Eternity to Book Club: Chapter Fourteen</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-119063</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-119063</guid>
		<description>Yes; that was a typo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes; that was a typo.</p>
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		<title>By: Sleeth</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-119061</link>
		<dc:creator>Sleeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 13:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-119061</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m very late coming to the book club (I was #7 on the library&#039;s wait list). Ch.2&#039;s comment option is long closed so I am posting here.

Top of pg 39, If I read correctly, you are stating the apparent angular size of the Sun is about 1 degree across. If that were true, there would be more frequent lunar eclipses, but no total solar eclipses. I believe the value is about half that value, around 0.5 degrees or 32 arc minutes, approximately the same size as the disk of the moon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very late coming to the book club (I was #7 on the library&#8217;s wait list). Ch.2&#8242;s comment option is long closed so I am posting here.</p>
<p>Top of pg 39, If I read correctly, you are stating the apparent angular size of the Sun is about 1 degree across. If that were true, there would be more frequent lunar eclipses, but no total solar eclipses. I believe the value is about half that value, around 0.5 degrees or 32 arc minutes, approximately the same size as the disk of the moon.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-119057</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 00:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-119057</guid>
		<description>You know what Juan.  I want to apologize for my behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know what Juan.  I want to apologize for my behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-119038</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 13:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-119038</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t disagree with you Juan.  I think that you are entirely right.  I can insert an arbitrary variable into any equation and make it behave in a way that makes us happy.  The question is whether the variable is used for an ad hoc approximation or whether it has real physical significance.  
In any case when it comes to states, we run into the same general questions of orthogonality,  independence, exclusion, variance, collinearity, interaction, etc.  These general issues are what we are trying to address when we build our models, and there is a growing proscriptive way of how to deal with these things when building a theory.  
In any case, putting aside the physical meaning of the word emergence, we see that how our equations behave emerges from our general use of the properties of numbers and how we construct more complex mathematical structures that incorporate those behaviors.  The beauty and frustration of modern physics is that the real world &lt;i&gt;almost&lt;/i&gt; behaves as objects we can define mathematical, but not quite.  This is why I keep telling you that our disagreement is a semantical one and completely detached from the specifics of the application of math to particular problems.  
That we can model certain systems using a particular approach is useful, but whether it reveals a deeper physical understanding and linkage to fundamental behavior of mathematical objects is another issue. 

Also you need to be more careful with your use of onclick and urchinTracker</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t disagree with you Juan.  I think that you are entirely right.  I can insert an arbitrary variable into any equation and make it behave in a way that makes us happy.  The question is whether the variable is used for an ad hoc approximation or whether it has real physical significance.<br />
In any case when it comes to states, we run into the same general questions of orthogonality,  independence, exclusion, variance, collinearity, interaction, etc.  These general issues are what we are trying to address when we build our models, and there is a growing proscriptive way of how to deal with these things when building a theory.<br />
In any case, putting aside the physical meaning of the word emergence, we see that how our equations behave emerges from our general use of the properties of numbers and how we construct more complex mathematical structures that incorporate those behaviors.  The beauty and frustration of modern physics is that the real world <i>almost</i> behaves as objects we can define mathematical, but not quite.  This is why I keep telling you that our disagreement is a semantical one and completely detached from the specifics of the application of math to particular problems.<br />
That we can model certain systems using a particular approach is useful, but whether it reveals a deeper physical understanding and linkage to fundamental behavior of mathematical objects is another issue. </p>
<p>Also you need to be more careful with your use of onclick and urchinTracker</p>
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		<title>By: layman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-119037</link>
		<dc:creator>layman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 13:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-119037</guid>
		<description>Hi Sean,

(I have a strange problem using chrome: each time I try to comment I&#039;m redirected to Petrosky&#039;s web page. It&#039;s seems ok using explorer.)

Thx for your answer, although I&#039;m not sure to understand. You seem to say that what happens in a flat matter-dominated universe has nothing to do with inflation. Then I was unclear: my question is about whether the “to any observer the size of the observable universe is the size of a black hole”?  assertion may also hold in a universe with a big vacuum energy, or cosmological constant. 

&quot;the universe isn’t a black hole; if anything, it’s a white hole.&quot; 
What if white holes were black holes seen from the inside?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sean,</p>
<p>(I have a strange problem using chrome: each time I try to comment I&#8217;m redirected to Petrosky&#8217;s web page. It&#8217;s seems ok using explorer.)</p>
<p>Thx for your answer, although I&#8217;m not sure to understand. You seem to say that what happens in a flat matter-dominated universe has nothing to do with inflation. Then I was unclear: my question is about whether the “to any observer the size of the observable universe is the size of a black hole”?  assertion may also hold in a universe with a big vacuum energy, or cosmological constant. </p>
<p>&#8220;the universe isn’t a black hole; if anything, it’s a white hole.&#8221;<br />
What if white holes were black holes seen from the inside?</p>
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		<title>By: Juan R. González-Álvarez</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118999</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan R. González-Álvarez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118999</guid>
		<description>To Juan,

you confirmed my suspicion that you confound the ket &#124;Psi&gt; in the general N-particle case, with the special case described by wavefunctions as Y(x,t). Nowhere in the absoluteastronomy link that you gave above appears the word &quot;field&quot;, even once!

As explained to you before, it is only the last special case of Y(x,t), which can be interpreted as a field and next quantized using the formalism of second quantization.

You are right that &quot;In any general sense, since real numbers are a subset of complex numbers, I can most certainly tell you that any number you produce has a complex number representation.&quot; But this is a straw-man. Evidently the complex extensions of the Schrödinger equation used to explain some of the phenomenology of irreversible systems and of the arrow of time are those where purely real observables are extended by adding a non-zero imaginary part. If you read my messages with care, you would find the part where I gave the dissipation condition. I repeat it now: &quot;In standard literature, the dissipativity condition is then defined as Im{H} =&lt; 0&quot;. When the imaginary part is zero, dissipation is zero and one recovers time symmetry.

I fail again to follow parts of your message. You did not reply to my questions for clarifications and it seems that you are rejecting the well-known fact that the Schrödinger equation is Markovian with your &quot;since you don’t understand the general use of the word Markovian&quot;.

The Schrödinger equation is valid only as approximation, when one ignores non-Markovian corrections, mixed states, random terms f... In the more general cases we use more general equations: from simple Ito-Schrödinger equations to more developed expression as Lindblad equation, Eu equation, the Brussels-Austin equation, etc.

An introduction to the Lindblad equation is given in the above Wikipedia link linked in my previous message.

I want just to add that the Brussels-Austin equation is based in a complex extension of the Liouville space and the condition for dissipativity is Im{Z} =&lt; 0, where Z is an eigenvalue of the Liouvillian in a generalized space (beyond the Hilbert space of ordinary quantum mechanics). The applications to instable systems: particles, fields, etc. are found in standard literature in mainstream journals

http://order.ph.utexas.edu/people/Petrosky.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Juan,</p>
<p>you confirmed my suspicion that you confound the ket |Psi> in the general N-particle case, with the special case described by wavefunctions as Y(x,t). Nowhere in the absoluteastronomy link that you gave above appears the word &#8220;field&#8221;, even once!</p>
<p>As explained to you before, it is only the last special case of Y(x,t), which can be interpreted as a field and next quantized using the formalism of second quantization.</p>
<p>You are right that &#8220;In any general sense, since real numbers are a subset of complex numbers, I can most certainly tell you that any number you produce has a complex number representation.&#8221; But this is a straw-man. Evidently the complex extensions of the Schrödinger equation used to explain some of the phenomenology of irreversible systems and of the arrow of time are those where purely real observables are extended by adding a non-zero imaginary part. If you read my messages with care, you would find the part where I gave the dissipation condition. I repeat it now: &#8220;In standard literature, the dissipativity condition is then defined as Im{H} =&lt; 0&#8243;. When the imaginary part is zero, dissipation is zero and one recovers time symmetry.</p>
<p>I fail again to follow parts of your message. You did not reply to my questions for clarifications and it seems that you are rejecting the well-known fact that the Schrödinger equation is Markovian with your &#8220;since you don’t understand the general use of the word Markovian&#8221;.</p>
<p>The Schrödinger equation is valid only as approximation, when one ignores non-Markovian corrections, mixed states, random terms f&#8230; In the more general cases we use more general equations: from simple Ito-Schrödinger equations to more developed expression as Lindblad equation, Eu equation, the Brussels-Austin equation, etc.</p>
<p>An introduction to the Lindblad equation is given in the above Wikipedia link linked in my previous message.</p>
<p>I want just to add that the Brussels-Austin equation is based in a complex extension of the Liouville space and the condition for dissipativity is Im{Z} =&lt; 0, where Z is an eigenvalue of the Liouvillian in a generalized space (beyond the Hilbert space of ordinary quantum mechanics). The applications to instable systems: particles, fields, etc. are found in standard literature in mainstream journals</p>
<p><a href="http://order.ph.utexas.edu/people/Petrosky.htm" rel="nofollow">http://order.ph.utexas.edu/people/Petrosky.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118995</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118995</guid>
		<description>Juan
&lt;i&gt;A Ket &#124;Psi&gt; in the general N-particle case, cannot be represented using a complex number field.&lt;/i&gt;
I am not sure you understand these things well, I found a good article that describe bra-ket notation
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Bra-ket_notation
I think you should review these things. 
In any general sense, since real numbers are a subset of complex numbers, I can most certainly tell you that any number you produce has a complex number representation.  What is really different between a real number and a complex  number is that a complex number is intrinsically a vector (even though we do sometimes call them scalars, but that is a minor issue in semantics).  In any case, because complex numbers and real numbers share the same cardinality I can do whatever the f... I want.  It is their behavior under group operations that is important, and I you simple can&#039;t get real numbers to do some of the things that you can do with complex numbers simply because the latter is intrinsically a vector.  As far as your comments on being stuck on the &quot;Stuckelberg-Feynman&quot; interpretation of antiparticles, although that comment is intended to make you sound intelligent, it doesn&#039;t.  I only said that one could crudely understand these things as such, which to an intelligent person should be interpreted as meaning approximate and not a rigorous statement.  I am not stuck on any interpretation, but apparently you are since you don&#039;t understand the general use of the word Markovian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Juan<br />
<i>A Ket |Psi> in the general N-particle case, cannot be represented using a complex number field.</i><br />
I am not sure you understand these things well, I found a good article that describe bra-ket notation<br />
<a href="http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Bra-ket_notation" rel="nofollow">http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Bra-ket_notation</a><br />
I think you should review these things.<br />
In any general sense, since real numbers are a subset of complex numbers, I can most certainly tell you that any number you produce has a complex number representation.  What is really different between a real number and a complex  number is that a complex number is intrinsically a vector (even though we do sometimes call them scalars, but that is a minor issue in semantics).  In any case, because complex numbers and real numbers share the same cardinality I can do whatever the f&#8230; I want.  It is their behavior under group operations that is important, and I you simple can&#8217;t get real numbers to do some of the things that you can do with complex numbers simply because the latter is intrinsically a vector.  As far as your comments on being stuck on the &#8220;Stuckelberg-Feynman&#8221; interpretation of antiparticles, although that comment is intended to make you sound intelligent, it doesn&#8217;t.  I only said that one could crudely understand these things as such, which to an intelligent person should be interpreted as meaning approximate and not a rigorous statement.  I am not stuck on any interpretation, but apparently you are since you don&#8217;t understand the general use of the word Markovian.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan R. González-Álvarez</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118969</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan R. González-Álvarez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118969</guid>
		<description>To Juan,

I did some remarks about how complex extensions of the Schrödinger equation can explain some of the phenomenology of irreversible systems, such as the decay of instable particles radioactive nuclei...

Let me do some other minor comments to your last message. First the Schrödinger equation does not need to be manipulating a wave function as you affirm; it can be manipulating a Ket or a Bra in Dirac&#039;s abstract notation. A Ket &#124;Psi&gt; in the general N-particle case, cannot be represented using a complex number field. I think that you confound the general quantum state with the special case described by wavefunctions as Y(x,t).

I do not know what you mean by &quot;a backward moving universe as being made of anti-particles&quot;. It seems that you mean Stuckelberg-Feynman interpretation of antiparticles. Their model is not valid and in modern QFT, there is nothing like particles moving backward in time. There was a rather large discussion about this in newsgroup sci.physics.research the last two weeks.

I have no idea about what you mean by your &quot;The Markovian processes with memory do represent our real universe&quot;. Moreover, it is not true that &quot;the schrodinger equation is what governs the probability evolution between each coin flip&quot;. The equation is only valid in the Markovian limit, pure state, no random terms f... In more general cases we use more general cases: from simple Ito-Schrödinger equations to more developed expression as Lindblad equation, Eu equation, the Brushels-Austin equation, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindblad_equation</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Juan,</p>
<p>I did some remarks about how complex extensions of the Schrödinger equation can explain some of the phenomenology of irreversible systems, such as the decay of instable particles radioactive nuclei&#8230;</p>
<p>Let me do some other minor comments to your last message. First the Schrödinger equation does not need to be manipulating a wave function as you affirm; it can be manipulating a Ket or a Bra in Dirac&#8217;s abstract notation. A Ket |Psi> in the general N-particle case, cannot be represented using a complex number field. I think that you confound the general quantum state with the special case described by wavefunctions as Y(x,t).</p>
<p>I do not know what you mean by &#8220;a backward moving universe as being made of anti-particles&#8221;. It seems that you mean Stuckelberg-Feynman interpretation of antiparticles. Their model is not valid and in modern QFT, there is nothing like particles moving backward in time. There was a rather large discussion about this in newsgroup sci.physics.research the last two weeks.</p>
<p>I have no idea about what you mean by your &#8220;The Markovian processes with memory do represent our real universe&#8221;. Moreover, it is not true that &#8220;the schrodinger equation is what governs the probability evolution between each coin flip&#8221;. The equation is only valid in the Markovian limit, pure state, no random terms f&#8230; In more general cases we use more general cases: from simple Ito-Schrödinger equations to more developed expression as Lindblad equation, Eu equation, the Brushels-Austin equation, etc.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindblad_equation" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindblad_equation</a></p>
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		<title>By: Juan R. González-Álvarez</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118967</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan R. González-Álvarez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118967</guid>
		<description>To Ray,

Sorry but the scenario described in the section cited above is not assuming the second law of thermodynamics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Ray,</p>
<p>Sorry but the scenario described in the section cited above is not assuming the second law of thermodynamics.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118932</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118932</guid>
		<description>Juan
Apparently you didn&#039;t actually read my comment, and it seems to me that you don&#039;t understand that what the schrodinger equation is manipulating is the wave function, which is represented using a complex number field.  This allows us to use complex conjugation to maintain time symmetry (or, as it has been crudely pointed out in the past, we can think of a backward moving universe as being made of anti-particles, and would behave exactly like our own to local observers).  Sure, the schrodinger function is deterministic, but what it is determining is probabilities, and the time component tracks time between observations.  Those observations are real valued observations.  The Markovian processes with memory do represent our real universe, but the schrodinger equation is what governs the probability evolution between each coin flip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Juan<br />
Apparently you didn&#8217;t actually read my comment, and it seems to me that you don&#8217;t understand that what the schrodinger equation is manipulating is the wave function, which is represented using a complex number field.  This allows us to use complex conjugation to maintain time symmetry (or, as it has been crudely pointed out in the past, we can think of a backward moving universe as being made of anti-particles, and would behave exactly like our own to local observers).  Sure, the schrodinger function is deterministic, but what it is determining is probabilities, and the time component tracks time between observations.  Those observations are real valued observations.  The Markovian processes with memory do represent our real universe, but the schrodinger equation is what governs the probability evolution between each coin flip.</p>
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		<title>By: CarlN</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118930</link>
		<dc:creator>CarlN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118930</guid>
		<description>Sean has no problems with time stretching to infinity in both directions. However, the laws of physics tell us that time &quot;progress&quot; at a finite rate. Time could never cover the interval &quot;from eternity to here&quot; at any finite  rate. 

Same for the future. There will never be a future time that is infinite into the future from present time. The proof is very simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean has no problems with time stretching to infinity in both directions. However, the laws of physics tell us that time &#8220;progress&#8221; at a finite rate. Time could never cover the interval &#8220;from eternity to here&#8221; at any finite  rate. </p>
<p>Same for the future. There will never be a future time that is infinite into the future from present time. The proof is very simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118897</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118897</guid>
		<description>layman--  If you look at the Friedmann equation for a flat matter-dominated universe, you can integrate the total mass within one Hubble radius.  Then you can calculate the Schwarzschild radius for that much mass; it&#039;s the same (to within some numerical factor) as the Hubble parameter.  That has nothing to do with inflation, it&#039;s a statement about a flat matter-dominated universe at the present time.

But the universe isn&#039;t a black hole; if anything, it&#039;s a white hole.  Black holes have singularities in the future, white holes have them in the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>layman&#8211;  If you look at the Friedmann equation for a flat matter-dominated universe, you can integrate the total mass within one Hubble radius.  Then you can calculate the Schwarzschild radius for that much mass; it&#8217;s the same (to within some numerical factor) as the Hubble parameter.  That has nothing to do with inflation, it&#8217;s a statement about a flat matter-dominated universe at the present time.</p>
<p>But the universe isn&#8217;t a black hole; if anything, it&#8217;s a white hole.  Black holes have singularities in the future, white holes have them in the past.</p>
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		<title>By: layman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118880</link>
		<dc:creator>layman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118880</guid>
		<description>To Sean,

Congrats on your book. If I may ask a question: can you (dis)prove &quot;to any observer the size of the observable universe is the size of a black hole&quot;? 

I have been told this is trivially true for a flat universe. Should inflation changes this? What would be the consequences to take this as a law?

Best</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Sean,</p>
<p>Congrats on your book. If I may ask a question: can you (dis)prove &#8220;to any observer the size of the observable universe is the size of a black hole&#8221;? </p>
<p>I have been told this is trivially true for a flat universe. Should inflation changes this? What would be the consequences to take this as a law?</p>
<p>Best</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118875</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118875</guid>
		<description>Will--  You can&#039;t write down a simple Lagrangian with magnetic monopoles based only on the usual E&amp;M vector potential.  In grand unified theories, you start with a larger symmetry group (like SU(5)), then break it using some scalar fields; the monopoles are then topological configurations of the scalar fields.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will&#8211;  You can&#8217;t write down a simple Lagrangian with magnetic monopoles based only on the usual E&#038;M vector potential.  In grand unified theories, you start with a larger symmetry group (like SU(5)), then break it using some scalar fields; the monopoles are then topological configurations of the scalar fields.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118865</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118865</guid>
		<description>Juan. 

The discussion at

http://www.canonicalscience.org/research/time.html

assumes the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which is not fundamental. Sean is postulating a scenario where the second law isn&#039;t true before a certain time. Read the last chapter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Juan. </p>
<p>The discussion at</p>
<p><a href="http://www.canonicalscience.org/research/time.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.canonicalscience.org/research/time.html</a></p>
<p>assumes the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which is not fundamental. Sean is postulating a scenario where the second law isn&#8217;t true before a certain time. Read the last chapter.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan R. González-Álvarez</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118861</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan R. González-Álvarez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118861</guid>
		<description>To Juan,

The time symmetry of the Schrödinger equation is associated to the use of real numbers (or more rigorously to hermiticity) for the evolution of quantum states. It is just when we relax this and consider complex eigenvalues for the Hamiltonian that an irreversible component arises in the evolution. In standard literature, the dissipativity condition is then defined as Im{H} =&lt; 0. Semi-phenomenological models of this class are useful to study the (exponential) decay of instable particles.

What you call the &quot;true heat equation&quot; is only an approximation to more general heat equations that also work for strong gradients of temperature and for systems with memory (non-Markovian).

I want to emphasize that the Schrödinger equation is deterministic. If you know the state of the system at instant t you can know any other instant both in the future or the past. And the classical limit of quantum mechanics is also deterministic and time-reversible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Juan,</p>
<p>The time symmetry of the Schrödinger equation is associated to the use of real numbers (or more rigorously to hermiticity) for the evolution of quantum states. It is just when we relax this and consider complex eigenvalues for the Hamiltonian that an irreversible component arises in the evolution. In standard literature, the dissipativity condition is then defined as Im{H} =< 0. Semi-phenomenological models of this class are useful to study the (exponential) decay of instable particles.</p>
<p>What you call the &#8220;true heat equation&#8221; is only an approximation to more general heat equations that also work for strong gradients of temperature and for systems with memory (non-Markovian).</p>
<p>I want to emphasize that the Schrödinger equation is deterministic. If you know the state of the system at instant t you can know any other instant both in the future or the past. And the classical limit of quantum mechanics is also deterministic and time-reversible.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Juan R. González-Álvarez</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118859</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan R. González-Álvarez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118859</guid>
		<description>To Sean, Peter Lynds and Ray,

Past cannot be infinite, because this would imply that time cannot flow. This is explained to broad audiences in the section &quot;How does time evolves?&quot; in the bottom part of the next link

http://www.canonicalscience.org/research/time.html

If anyone needs the technical details, can ask me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Sean, Peter Lynds and Ray,</p>
<p>Past cannot be infinite, because this would imply that time cannot flow. This is explained to broad audiences in the section &#8220;How does time evolves?&#8221; in the bottom part of the next link</p>
<p><a href="http://www.canonicalscience.org/research/time.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.canonicalscience.org/research/time.html</a></p>
<p>If anyone needs the technical details, can ask me.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118857</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118857</guid>
		<description>It should be pointed out that the time reversal symmetry of the Schrodinger equation is only possible because we are dealing with complex numbers and an imaginary diffusion coefficient.  If we dealt only with real numbers, then we are dealing with the tried and true heat equation, which is not symmetric under time reversal.  It should also be pointed out that the Schrodinger equation is only computing the wave function, which controls probabilities and not classical trajectories.

In the quantum world, we can understand unfolding events as a Markov process where time is treated as an absolute parameter.  This means that the process is ignorant of the signed value of time.   As an example, in a coin flipping scenario, reversing time is not going to produce the past history of coin tosses.  IOW, tossing the coin at time -1 will have the same 50-50 probability as tossing the coin at time 1.  

What is surprising then is that the Schrodinger equation tells us that it is just as unlikely to reach a particular state in the past as it is to reach a particular state in the future, e.g. the past is just as unpredictable as the future.   It is only when we transition into the classical realm, the one mappable to real numbers, that we see time reversal asymmetry and the notion of past and present.  There past events have more concrete values, and we have a more solid concept of history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It should be pointed out that the time reversal symmetry of the Schrodinger equation is only possible because we are dealing with complex numbers and an imaginary diffusion coefficient.  If we dealt only with real numbers, then we are dealing with the tried and true heat equation, which is not symmetric under time reversal.  It should also be pointed out that the Schrodinger equation is only computing the wave function, which controls probabilities and not classical trajectories.</p>
<p>In the quantum world, we can understand unfolding events as a Markov process where time is treated as an absolute parameter.  This means that the process is ignorant of the signed value of time.   As an example, in a coin flipping scenario, reversing time is not going to produce the past history of coin tosses.  IOW, tossing the coin at time -1 will have the same 50-50 probability as tossing the coin at time 1.  </p>
<p>What is surprising then is that the Schrodinger equation tells us that it is just as unlikely to reach a particular state in the past as it is to reach a particular state in the future, e.g. the past is just as unpredictable as the future.   It is only when we transition into the classical realm, the one mappable to real numbers, that we see time reversal asymmetry and the notion of past and present.  There past events have more concrete values, and we have a more solid concept of history.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118852</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118852</guid>
		<description>Can I ask what the EM Lagrangian looks like with the addition of magnetic monopoles? The normal div.B and curl B equations are geometric in nature, so presumably you have to define something other than the normal maxwell tensor?

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I ask what the EM Lagrangian looks like with the addition of magnetic monopoles? The normal div.B and curl B equations are geometric in nature, so presumably you have to define something other than the normal maxwell tensor?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Lab Lemming</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/04/13/from-eternity-to-book-club-chapter-fourteen/comment-page-1/#comment-118847</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4569#comment-118847</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I meant Grand Unified Theory, not standard model.  Although I suspect that the neutrino science enabled by the failed search for H decay was probably more useful than H decay would have been had it been found.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I meant Grand Unified Theory, not standard model.  Although I suspect that the neutrino science enabled by the failed search for H decay was probably more useful than H decay would have been had it been found.</p>
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