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	<title>Comments on: A Shrine to Science on the Missouri River</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: T.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120967</link>
		<dc:creator>T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2010 21:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120967</guid>
		<description>Thx Sean, your talks are quite remarkably clear, it&#039;s always a pleasure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thx Sean, your talks are quite remarkably clear, it&#8217;s always a pleasure.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120940</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 May 2010 20:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120940</guid>
		<description>I sure am glad we got rid of that Latin requirement for publishing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sure am glad we got rid of that Latin requirement for publishing.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120906</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 May 2010 03:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120906</guid>
		<description>Brendan--  there is no privileging.  When two clocks are moving past each other, a person moving along with one of the clocks sees the other one moving more slowly.  The symmetry is only broken when one clock turns around to catch up with the other one -- in that case, the one that turns around (experiences acceleration) will feel less total time passing than the one that simply continued on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brendan&#8211;  there is no privileging.  When two clocks are moving past each other, a person moving along with one of the clocks sees the other one moving more slowly.  The symmetry is only broken when one clock turns around to catch up with the other one &#8212; in that case, the one that turns around (experiences acceleration) will feel less total time passing than the one that simply continued on.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Mingus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120904</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Mingus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 May 2010 02:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120904</guid>
		<description>Great talk, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great talk, thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Smith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120903</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 May 2010 00:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120903</guid>
		<description>Just got done reading your book and found it very good, I sincerely believe this science will eventually move the world and the human race forward in a very dramatic way.

Question:
Much of what I here spoken about time travel seems to relate more to historical time, in other words moving from the past to the present and then on to the future. The arrow of time as you said.

Where I’m having difficulty is trying to connect this to the time fluctuations experienced on board a moving space ship when it passes through gravitational waves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just got done reading your book and found it very good, I sincerely believe this science will eventually move the world and the human race forward in a very dramatic way.</p>
<p>Question:<br />
Much of what I here spoken about time travel seems to relate more to historical time, in other words moving from the past to the present and then on to the future. The arrow of time as you said.</p>
<p>Where I’m having difficulty is trying to connect this to the time fluctuations experienced on board a moving space ship when it passes through gravitational waves.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastien</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120901</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 May 2010 23:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120901</guid>
		<description>Hi Brendan,

I&#039;m completely unqualified to answer your question (and in fact I don&#039;t even have a sastifying answer), but I&#039;ve spent some thinking about the exact same problem and I thought I would offer you the explanation I eventually came up with.

I think it comes down to the relativity of simultaneity. Let&#039;s say a space ship is moving at 99% of c and you&#039;re stationnary. When the ship passes you by (i.e. when you&#039;re at the same position), you both set your clocks to 0. Now, say you wait a second in you reference frame. Then you will observe that time moves more slowly on the ship; its clock only indicates 0.14 s (if I&#039;m not mistaken) instead of 1 s :

Your reference frame:
Your clock: 1 s
Ship&#039;s clock: 0.14 s

But, see, the problem is that you&#039;re implicitely assuming that you&#039;re mesuring the time on both clocks at the same time. However, simultaneity is relative; there is not way to synchronize the two events -- you looking at your clock and the ship looking at its clock -- for both reference frame. Therefore, the people on the ship will NOT agree that when their clocks indicate 0.14 s, yours is at 1 s. Instead, they will find that:

Ship&#039;s reference frame:
Ship&#039;s clock: 0,14 s
Your clock: 0.0199 s

I came this far on my own, but then found out that Wikipedia already had a (much better) explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilatation#Time_dilation_due_to_relative_velocity_symmetric_between_observers

Anyway, beyond this point, my thinking is still fuzzy. I&#039;m currently of the opinion that I should try to understand the Lorentz transformation first and foremost, and see all the rest (time dilation, length contraction, relativity of simultaneity, etc.) as special cases or consequences. Every time I&#039;ve tried to understand special relativity, I always end up hitting a wall because the concept seem to make no sense on their own... they always lead to the kind of problem you&#039;ve brought up.

But I still hope I&#039;ll understand it one day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Brendan,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m completely unqualified to answer your question (and in fact I don&#8217;t even have a sastifying answer), but I&#8217;ve spent some thinking about the exact same problem and I thought I would offer you the explanation I eventually came up with.</p>
<p>I think it comes down to the relativity of simultaneity. Let&#8217;s say a space ship is moving at 99% of c and you&#8217;re stationnary. When the ship passes you by (i.e. when you&#8217;re at the same position), you both set your clocks to 0. Now, say you wait a second in you reference frame. Then you will observe that time moves more slowly on the ship; its clock only indicates 0.14 s (if I&#8217;m not mistaken) instead of 1 s :</p>
<p>Your reference frame:<br />
Your clock: 1 s<br />
Ship&#8217;s clock: 0.14 s</p>
<p>But, see, the problem is that you&#8217;re implicitely assuming that you&#8217;re mesuring the time on both clocks at the same time. However, simultaneity is relative; there is not way to synchronize the two events &#8212; you looking at your clock and the ship looking at its clock &#8212; for both reference frame. Therefore, the people on the ship will NOT agree that when their clocks indicate 0.14 s, yours is at 1 s. Instead, they will find that:</p>
<p>Ship&#8217;s reference frame:<br />
Ship&#8217;s clock: 0,14 s<br />
Your clock: 0.0199 s</p>
<p>I came this far on my own, but then found out that Wikipedia already had a (much better) explanation:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilatation#Time_dilation_due_to_relative_velocity_symmetric_between_observers" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilatation#Time_dilation_due_to_relative_velocity_symmetric_between_observers</a></p>
<p>Anyway, beyond this point, my thinking is still fuzzy. I&#8217;m currently of the opinion that I should try to understand the Lorentz transformation first and foremost, and see all the rest (time dilation, length contraction, relativity of simultaneity, etc.) as special cases or consequences. Every time I&#8217;ve tried to understand special relativity, I always end up hitting a wall because the concept seem to make no sense on their own&#8230; they always lead to the kind of problem you&#8217;ve brought up.</p>
<p>But I still hope I&#8217;ll understand it one day.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120898</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 May 2010 18:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120898</guid>
		<description>Thanks Sean,

Great talk. Though there a question asked at the end that I also have had. I think I know what the guy was asking and I don&#039;t think you answered it (or maybe you did and I&#039;m just not understanding). If a space ship is moving at 99% of c and I am stationary, you say that a clock on the space ship with be moving slower, relative to my clock. But a person on the spaceship would observe themselves being stationary and me moving at 99% of c. Right? It seems like this argument privileges the space ship&#039;s clock over my clock, and I thought that was wrong, based on special relativity. Of course I know I haven&#039;t found a flaw with Einstein&#039;s theory(!) so I wonder if you could explain where my thinking has gone haywire.

BTW I am really enjoying the book, but I&#039;m not finished yet, so maybe you get to this point.

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Sean,</p>
<p>Great talk. Though there a question asked at the end that I also have had. I think I know what the guy was asking and I don&#8217;t think you answered it (or maybe you did and I&#8217;m just not understanding). If a space ship is moving at 99% of c and I am stationary, you say that a clock on the space ship with be moving slower, relative to my clock. But a person on the spaceship would observe themselves being stationary and me moving at 99% of c. Right? It seems like this argument privileges the space ship&#8217;s clock over my clock, and I thought that was wrong, based on special relativity. Of course I know I haven&#8217;t found a flaw with Einstein&#8217;s theory(!) so I wonder if you could explain where my thinking has gone haywire.</p>
<p>BTW I am really enjoying the book, but I&#8217;m not finished yet, so maybe you get to this point.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: 29 May 2010 (pm) &#171; blueollie</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120886</link>
		<dc:creator>29 May 2010 (pm) &#171; blueollie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 May 2010 02:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120886</guid>
		<description>[...] Science vacation (and a Sean Carrol lecture): I&#8217;ll have to pay this Kansas City private science museum a visit! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Science vacation (and a Sean Carrol lecture): I&#8217;ll have to pay this Kansas City private science museum a visit! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tad</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120885</link>
		<dc:creator>Tad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 May 2010 02:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120885</guid>
		<description>Yes, that&#039;s quite a place.  I was lucky enough to attend several small astrophysics conferences there (sponsored by UMKC) as a grad student and got a tour of the book collection a couple years ago.  If anyone else needs something to do there, I was blown away by the astonishing Toy and Miniature museum that I visited on a lark not far away and the WWI museum downtown.  *Really* impressive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that&#8217;s quite a place.  I was lucky enough to attend several small astrophysics conferences there (sponsored by UMKC) as a grad student and got a tour of the book collection a couple years ago.  If anyone else needs something to do there, I was blown away by the astonishing Toy and Miniature museum that I visited on a lark not far away and the WWI museum downtown.  *Really* impressive.</p>
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		<title>By: buffalodavid</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120884</link>
		<dc:creator>buffalodavid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 22:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120884</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;m envious as all hell!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;m envious as all hell!</p>
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		<title>By: spyder</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120863</link>
		<dc:creator>spyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 01:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120863</guid>
		<description>Now if they just wouldn&#039;t smoke around you while you were eating that BBQ, life would be pretty grand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now if they just wouldn&#8217;t smoke around you while you were eating that BBQ, life would be pretty grand.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/05/28/a-shrine-to-science-on-the-missouri-river/comment-page-1/#comment-120850</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 17:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=4874#comment-120850</guid>
		<description>Would love to check that out next time I&#039;m in KC.  Got a chance to see Newton&#039;s personal copy of the Principia on display at the Huntington a couple years ago.  Very cool!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would love to check that out next time I&#8217;m in KC.  Got a chance to see Newton&#8217;s personal copy of the Principia on display at the Huntington a couple years ago.  Very cool!</p>
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