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	<title>Comments on: Better running through physics</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: 20 December 2010 &#171; blueollie</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-149302</link>
		<dc:creator>20 December 2010 &#171; blueollie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-149302</guid>
		<description>[...] better running through physics?  Ok, we mean: better stride: Her article is on Dathan Ritzenhein, a marathoner trying to recapture his glory days. He is being [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] better running through physics?  Ok, we mean: better stride: Her article is on Dathan Ritzenhein, a marathoner trying to recapture his glory days. He is being [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-148894</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Dec 2010 00:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-148894</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m guessing humans became better distance runners because we could keep a specific goal in mind longer, and imagine positive outcomes of an action further in the future than other animals.  Since we were willing to work longer at achieving a goal, we became better at doing that work for longer periods of time.

Any takers? : )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m guessing humans became better distance runners because we could keep a specific goal in mind longer, and imagine positive outcomes of an action further in the future than other animals.  Since we were willing to work longer at achieving a goal, we became better at doing that work for longer periods of time.</p>
<p>Any takers? : )</p>
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		<title>By: Tyro</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-148885</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Dec 2010 00:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-148885</guid>
		<description>Ian - again, it&#039;s a ridiculous standard to look at indolent office workers and conclude that humans aren&#039;t built for running.  You say that Ethiopia is a bad standard because they&#039;re running to escape poverty - that sounds like a very good comparison with the pressures our ancestors faced to gather food.

As for running marathons, I think you&#039;d be shocked at how far you can push yourself.  I worked myself up from running 10km to 40km in four months and it took another four months to get up to 80km.  I&#039;m pretty confident that if I wanted to, I could double that again to 160km (100 miles) as many people have done before me.  Try to find another pursuit where you can double your maximum three times in eight months.  Getting to be a fast runner takes some hard work as the article comments on, but gaining endurance is surprisingly easy.  When you find a good pace, almost any person can run for hours and be relatively comfortable, especially if they work up to it for a few months and carry a supply of water and food.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian &#8211; again, it&#8217;s a ridiculous standard to look at indolent office workers and conclude that humans aren&#8217;t built for running.  You say that Ethiopia is a bad standard because they&#8217;re running to escape poverty &#8211; that sounds like a very good comparison with the pressures our ancestors faced to gather food.</p>
<p>As for running marathons, I think you&#8217;d be shocked at how far you can push yourself.  I worked myself up from running 10km to 40km in four months and it took another four months to get up to 80km.  I&#8217;m pretty confident that if I wanted to, I could double that again to 160km (100 miles) as many people have done before me.  Try to find another pursuit where you can double your maximum three times in eight months.  Getting to be a fast runner takes some hard work as the article comments on, but gaining endurance is surprisingly easy.  When you find a good pace, almost any person can run for hours and be relatively comfortable, especially if they work up to it for a few months and carry a supply of water and food.</p>
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		<title>By: psmith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-148848</link>
		<dc:creator>psmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-148848</guid>
		<description>Ian, yes there are cultures that survive primarily by chasing animals. The San Bushmen of Southern Africa do this. Tyro actually referred to one of the published studies documenting this. Have a look at the University of Utah studies, they are persausive. Just to illustrate with a personal anecdote. I do trail running with my two dogs in a hot, arid environment. Up to the two and a half hour mark they can out run me. Thereafter they match my pace. After the three hour mark they slow noticeably and at about three and a half hours heat exhaustion brings them to a standstill while I can continue for much longer until dehydration stops me. My dogs&#039; cooling ability is limited by the length of their tongues, which in turn is limited by the size of their mouths. By contrast, since we depend on whole body sweating and not our tongue for cooling, we have a much larger surface area for cooling so we can dump more heat  and therefore run for longer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian, yes there are cultures that survive primarily by chasing animals. The San Bushmen of Southern Africa do this. Tyro actually referred to one of the published studies documenting this. Have a look at the University of Utah studies, they are persausive. Just to illustrate with a personal anecdote. I do trail running with my two dogs in a hot, arid environment. Up to the two and a half hour mark they can out run me. Thereafter they match my pace. After the three hour mark they slow noticeably and at about three and a half hours heat exhaustion brings them to a standstill while I can continue for much longer until dehydration stops me. My dogs&#8217; cooling ability is limited by the length of their tongues, which in turn is limited by the size of their mouths. By contrast, since we depend on whole body sweating and not our tongue for cooling, we have a much larger surface area for cooling so we can dump more heat  and therefore run for longer.</p>
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		<title>By: ian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-148839</link>
		<dc:creator>ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Dec 2010 20:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-148839</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Kenya or Ethiopia really count because the great marathoners they produce seem (from my perspective) to be doing it to overcome poverty and escape their country. Are there cultures that actually survive primarily by chasing animals?

I&#039;ve always been in good shape, am in my mid 20&#039;s, and could probably run a marathon if under sufficient stress without actually dying. But I don&#039;t think that really counts - I still don&#039;t think I&#039;m good at it. Rather, it seems like it&#039;s just something on the edge that is barely possible.

My point, which I think may not be completely true (but perhaps mostly true), is that the things animals have evolved to be good at they are to a substantial degree simply good at - they may improve by practice, but will still outclass other species. Examples: Tigers or bears that spend their lives in a zoo not exercising will still be vastly stronger than most other creatures, and probably still have a fighting chance of survival by hunting if tossed into the wild. At the very least they will have the instinct to hunt, and attempt to do it. Same with dogs and wolves. 

However if you take a person (think corporate office worker) and release them into the wilderness, I just can&#039;t imagine them having the instinct or ability to even attempt to chase down prey until it becomes exhausted. They are going to wander around looking for anything edible, and maybe try to figure out a clever way to catch something small.

The biomechanics of running article is actually fascinating, and the barefoot running trend is interesting, but I just don&#039;t think the evidence that we evolved to do more than be able, with a struggle, to run long distances is that compelling. We&#039;re pretty decent at traveling longer distances slowly, but running... I just don&#039;t see it.

Along the same lines, higher mathematics is another thing that we can do, but didn&#039;t evolve to be great at. We are ok - it seems we can figure things out - but beyond the initial abstractions (natural numbers, basic geometric reasoning...) it&#039;s a skill that takes real effort and is not widely distributed across the population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Kenya or Ethiopia really count because the great marathoners they produce seem (from my perspective) to be doing it to overcome poverty and escape their country. Are there cultures that actually survive primarily by chasing animals?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always been in good shape, am in my mid 20&#8242;s, and could probably run a marathon if under sufficient stress without actually dying. But I don&#8217;t think that really counts &#8211; I still don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m good at it. Rather, it seems like it&#8217;s just something on the edge that is barely possible.</p>
<p>My point, which I think may not be completely true (but perhaps mostly true), is that the things animals have evolved to be good at they are to a substantial degree simply good at &#8211; they may improve by practice, but will still outclass other species. Examples: Tigers or bears that spend their lives in a zoo not exercising will still be vastly stronger than most other creatures, and probably still have a fighting chance of survival by hunting if tossed into the wild. At the very least they will have the instinct to hunt, and attempt to do it. Same with dogs and wolves. </p>
<p>However if you take a person (think corporate office worker) and release them into the wilderness, I just can&#8217;t imagine them having the instinct or ability to even attempt to chase down prey until it becomes exhausted. They are going to wander around looking for anything edible, and maybe try to figure out a clever way to catch something small.</p>
<p>The biomechanics of running article is actually fascinating, and the barefoot running trend is interesting, but I just don&#8217;t think the evidence that we evolved to do more than be able, with a struggle, to run long distances is that compelling. We&#8217;re pretty decent at traveling longer distances slowly, but running&#8230; I just don&#8217;t see it.</p>
<p>Along the same lines, higher mathematics is another thing that we can do, but didn&#8217;t evolve to be great at. We are ok &#8211; it seems we can figure things out &#8211; but beyond the initial abstractions (natural numbers, basic geometric reasoning&#8230;) it&#8217;s a skill that takes real effort and is not widely distributed across the population.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyro</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-148825</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Dec 2010 17:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-148825</guid>
		<description>Ian - I think you&#039;re looking too much at todays world where we use technology to allow us to maintain sedentary lives so that even walking for 2-3 hours is more than many Americans are able to do.  The question isn&#039;t what any person in today&#039;s world can do after rolling off the sofa, it&#039;s what people who grow up in a primitive society can do.   As a comparison, there are about 70,000 Tarahumara Indians in Mexico yet because they grow up doing endurance running, were able to field many runners who competed with the best runners in all of the US (which has 50 times their population).  Just looking at the figures the article quotes, 13 of the top 25 fastest marathon times are Kenyan and 9 are Ethiopian yet combined these two countries have 1/3rd the population of the US alone.  If you just look around you and try to extrapolate to what humans can do at birth without the effect of culture and technology, you&#039;re going to reach some bad conclusions.

I read of studies of groups that hunted using endurance to outrun prey in Africa and they showed that this style of hunting offered a very high success rate and big rewards with relatively low risk and cost and could be used at all times of the year (with variations for prey and local land conditions).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian &#8211; I think you&#8217;re looking too much at todays world where we use technology to allow us to maintain sedentary lives so that even walking for 2-3 hours is more than many Americans are able to do.  The question isn&#8217;t what any person in today&#8217;s world can do after rolling off the sofa, it&#8217;s what people who grow up in a primitive society can do.   As a comparison, there are about 70,000 Tarahumara Indians in Mexico yet because they grow up doing endurance running, were able to field many runners who competed with the best runners in all of the US (which has 50 times their population).  Just looking at the figures the article quotes, 13 of the top 25 fastest marathon times are Kenyan and 9 are Ethiopian yet combined these two countries have 1/3rd the population of the US alone.  If you just look around you and try to extrapolate to what humans can do at birth without the effect of culture and technology, you&#8217;re going to reach some bad conclusions.</p>
<p>I read of studies of groups that hunted using endurance to outrun prey in Africa and they showed that this style of hunting offered a very high success rate and big rewards with relatively low risk and cost and could be used at all times of the year (with variations for prey and local land conditions).</p>
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		<title>By: ian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-148819</link>
		<dc:creator>ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Dec 2010 15:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-148819</guid>
		<description>If we evolved for endurance running, why do we suck at it so much? I know, we&#039;re better than most animals, but we are unable to even do it without a lot of practice. Dogs and horses bred for distance running are way way better than us. I&#039;d be more willing to bet we evolved to be able to walk forever (say, 12 hours straight) while carrying or manipulating stuff with our hands, since that&#039;s something pretty much any healthy person can do if forced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we evolved for endurance running, why do we suck at it so much? I know, we&#8217;re better than most animals, but we are unable to even do it without a lot of practice. Dogs and horses bred for distance running are way way better than us. I&#8217;d be more willing to bet we evolved to be able to walk forever (say, 12 hours straight) while carrying or manipulating stuff with our hands, since that&#8217;s something pretty much any healthy person can do if forced.</p>
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		<title>By: psmith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-148784</link>
		<dc:creator>psmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Dec 2010 06:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-148784</guid>
		<description>Yes, the New Yorker has good taste, that was an enjoyable article. But changing a runner&#039;s form seems to be an exercise in futility. That at least was my experience. 
Some runners are gifted with the ideal biomechanics, biochemistry as well as psychological make up and there doesn&#039;t seem to be much that high tech training programmes can do to overcome such advantages. But we learn so much from trying to do what seems impossible.
Researchers at the University of Utah have argued that endurance running is the one activity that has uniquely shaped the human animal. That for much of our early history we depended on efficient endurance running as we were essentially persistence hunters. Perhaps the Kenyans and Ethiopians have retained these advantages better than we have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the New Yorker has good taste, that was an enjoyable article. But changing a runner&#8217;s form seems to be an exercise in futility. That at least was my experience.<br />
Some runners are gifted with the ideal biomechanics, biochemistry as well as psychological make up and there doesn&#8217;t seem to be much that high tech training programmes can do to overcome such advantages. But we learn so much from trying to do what seems impossible.<br />
Researchers at the University of Utah have argued that endurance running is the one activity that has uniquely shaped the human animal. That for much of our early history we depended on efficient endurance running as we were essentially persistence hunters. Perhaps the Kenyans and Ethiopians have retained these advantages better than we have.</p>
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		<title>By: spyder</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-148749</link>
		<dc:creator>spyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Dec 2010 01:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-148749</guid>
		<description>Biomechanics has made significant contributions to human movement in the recent years, in many respects due to the need for better prosthetics.  Those sleek swimsuits are banned so swimmers are changing their strokes to increase efficiencies and challenge suit-aided records.  Runners are changing strides, foot falls, and even running barefoot.  Lots of research is happening at this point in time, which is really cool, given that we are alive to experience it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Biomechanics has made significant contributions to human movement in the recent years, in many respects due to the need for better prosthetics.  Those sleek swimsuits are banned so swimmers are changing their strokes to increase efficiencies and challenge suit-aided records.  Runners are changing strides, foot falls, and even running barefoot.  Lots of research is happening at this point in time, which is really cool, given that we are alive to experience it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Better running through physics &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/12/17/better-running-through-physics/comment-page-1/#comment-148726</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Better running through physics &#124; Cosmic Variance &#124; Discover Magazine -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=5925#comment-148726</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Ron Simon, C Fullelove Blogs, Trakgalvis, Geoffrey Dyson, John Morris and others. John Morris said: Better running through physics: I opened the New Yorker a couple of weeks ago to find a feature piece written by... http://bit.ly/dN1OQY [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Ron Simon, C Fullelove Blogs, Trakgalvis, Geoffrey Dyson, John Morris and others. John Morris said: Better running through physics: I opened the New Yorker a couple of weeks ago to find a feature piece written by&#8230; <a href="http://bit.ly/dN1OQY" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/dN1OQY</a> [...]</p>
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