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	<title>Comments on: Free Will Is as Real as Baseball</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/</link>
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		<title>By: MMA Houston</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70438</link>
		<dc:creator>MMA Houston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70438</guid>
		<description>Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon, treated species as artificial categories and living forms as malleable-even suggesting the possibility of common descent. Though he was in opposition to evolution, Buffon is a key estimate the history of evolutionary thought; his work influenced the evolutionary theories of both Lamarck and Darwin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon, treated species as artificial categories and living forms as malleable-even suggesting the possibility of common descent. Though he was in opposition to evolution, Buffon is a key estimate the history of evolutionary thought; his work influenced the evolutionary theories of both Lamarck and Darwin.</p>
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		<title>By: melior</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70437</link>
		<dc:creator>melior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 04:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70437</guid>
		<description>@70: Some guy punched me really hard in the face, then tried to convince me I shouldn&#039;t blame him because I agree that free will is like baseball in the sense Sean describes.

I had to bend over and listen closely to hear him make his argument though, since he was doubled up on the ground as a result of my knee striking him so hard in the groin in reaction to his punch. From what I could make out through his whimpering it sounded like some sort of silly attempted &lt;i&gt;reductio ad absurdum&lt;/i&gt; of a straw man version of compatibilism couched as a joke that wasn&#039;t even amusing the first twelve times I heard it, so I lost interest pretty quickly. I put some ice on my black eye and it&#039;s fine now though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@70: Some guy punched me really hard in the face, then tried to convince me I shouldn&#8217;t blame him because I agree that free will is like baseball in the sense Sean describes.</p>
<p>I had to bend over and listen closely to hear him make his argument though, since he was doubled up on the ground as a result of my knee striking him so hard in the groin in reaction to his punch. From what I could make out through his whimpering it sounded like some sort of silly attempted <i>reductio ad absurdum</i> of a straw man version of compatibilism couched as a joke that wasn&#8217;t even amusing the first twelve times I heard it, so I lost interest pretty quickly. I put some ice on my black eye and it&#8217;s fine now though.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt B.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70436</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70436</guid>
		<description>I like to make an analogy with signals. A signal can be random, regular, or , between those two, it can carry a message.

Absolute lack of free will would make us automatons, like a regular signal going through the same bleeps and blorps (though the analogy is that sentient beings automatically follow laws of physics, not that they repeat their actions).

Absolute free will would mean making decisions without basis on sensory input, it would be a random signal. However, I believe we do act randomly when newly born, and that that&#039;s how we learn how to act with purpose. You cannot be a moral actor with this kind of free will (if it were permanent).

Meaningful free will is like a signal with a message. Unlike the other two kinds of messages, this kind is worth listening to. We choose our actions based on sensory input (including the influences of past perceptions), so it&#039;s not random, but it&#039;s not entirely regular either, if such free will exists. Oddly, this concept of morality seems to require a striving toward regularity, trying to become an automaton. (There may be an extra analogy possible here, involving zipping a file. To be moral, you must be as predictable as possible, or the most zippable.)

Maybe we think we have free will because we never get all the way from randomness to regularity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like to make an analogy with signals. A signal can be random, regular, or , between those two, it can carry a message.</p>
<p>Absolute lack of free will would make us automatons, like a regular signal going through the same bleeps and blorps (though the analogy is that sentient beings automatically follow laws of physics, not that they repeat their actions).</p>
<p>Absolute free will would mean making decisions without basis on sensory input, it would be a random signal. However, I believe we do act randomly when newly born, and that that&#8217;s how we learn how to act with purpose. You cannot be a moral actor with this kind of free will (if it were permanent).</p>
<p>Meaningful free will is like a signal with a message. Unlike the other two kinds of messages, this kind is worth listening to. We choose our actions based on sensory input (including the influences of past perceptions), so it&#8217;s not random, but it&#8217;s not entirely regular either, if such free will exists. Oddly, this concept of morality seems to require a striving toward regularity, trying to become an automaton. (There may be an extra analogy possible here, involving zipping a file. To be moral, you must be as predictable as possible, or the most zippable.)</p>
<p>Maybe we think we have free will because we never get all the way from randomness to regularity.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Habegger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70435</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Habegger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70435</guid>
		<description>That was a bit of cold blooded analysis by me. It does not represent the real feelings I attach to life. I think William Blake might have been the one that said all life is holy. I agree with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was a bit of cold blooded analysis by me. It does not represent the real feelings I attach to life. I think William Blake might have been the one that said all life is holy. I agree with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Habegger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70434</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Habegger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 06:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70434</guid>
		<description>Interesting comments and references offered here. I think it might be worthwhile reading Doyle&#039;s book that was just listed if I had more hours in the day. Going back to the reference : http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&amp;context=poliscifacpub&amp;sei-redir=1#search=%22alford%20twin%20study%22

...it says in it that identical twins as they are growing up often try to act as independently from each other as possible in order to be recognized by first their parents, and then their other siblings, and then their friends and acquaintances. It sounds like they artificially create a slight variation on how they really see themselves so they can each have their own identity.

Later when they become adults and get some spatial separation they naturally give up that self induced differentiating. The  similarity in lifestyle, professions  and political views between them often become profound at that time even if there is not much communication between them.  If you think about this they really are behaving conceptually exactly like quarks in a nucleon. That is, there is asymptotic freedom when the twins are in close proximity. This would be the high energy state when the quarks are close together. In the low energy condition when there is almost complete spatial separation their actions then become highly correlated and similar.

It might seem like this is stretching analogy to the point of ridiculousness. I just happen to think that these patterns keep showing up at larger and larger scales because quantum interactions in biological systems are perhaps what makes the difference between inanimate (or animated objects) and what we define as life.     What we define as life is just the arbitrary line we have come with for large objects that are defined largely by quantum principles and indeterminism rather than classical behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comments and references offered here. I think it might be worthwhile reading Doyle&#8217;s book that was just listed if I had more hours in the day. Going back to the reference : <a href="http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&#038;context=poliscifacpub&#038;sei-redir=1#search=%22alford%20twin%20study%22" rel="nofollow">http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&#038;context=poliscifacpub&#038;sei-redir=1#search=%22alford%20twin%20study%22</a></p>
<p>&#8230;it says in it that identical twins as they are growing up often try to act as independently from each other as possible in order to be recognized by first their parents, and then their other siblings, and then their friends and acquaintances. It sounds like they artificially create a slight variation on how they really see themselves so they can each have their own identity.</p>
<p>Later when they become adults and get some spatial separation they naturally give up that self induced differentiating. The  similarity in lifestyle, professions  and political views between them often become profound at that time even if there is not much communication between them.  If you think about this they really are behaving conceptually exactly like quarks in a nucleon. That is, there is asymptotic freedom when the twins are in close proximity. This would be the high energy state when the quarks are close together. In the low energy condition when there is almost complete spatial separation their actions then become highly correlated and similar.</p>
<p>It might seem like this is stretching analogy to the point of ridiculousness. I just happen to think that these patterns keep showing up at larger and larger scales because quantum interactions in biological systems are perhaps what makes the difference between inanimate (or animated objects) and what we define as life.     What we define as life is just the arbitrary line we have come with for large objects that are defined largely by quantum principles and indeterminism rather than classical behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: psmith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70433</link>
		<dc:creator>psmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70433</guid>
		<description>See this book
Free Will: The Scandal in Philosophy
for a complete, detailed and thoughtful treatment of the subject
http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See this book<br />
Free Will: The Scandal in Philosophy<br />
for a complete, detailed and thoughtful treatment of the subject<br />
<a href="http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/" rel="nofollow">http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Weekly Meanderings &#124; Jesus Creed</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70432</link>
		<dc:creator>Weekly Meanderings &#124; Jesus Creed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2011 15:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70432</guid>
		<description>[...] fewer strings attached and that do not require slavish conformity to unscientific beliefs.&#8221;6. Sean Carroll on free will and cosmic variance. &#8220;We talk about the world using different levels of [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] fewer strings attached and that do not require slavish conformity to unscientific beliefs.&#8221;6. Sean Carroll on free will and cosmic variance. &#8220;We talk about the world using different levels of [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Justin Loe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70431</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Loe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2011 05:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70431</guid>
		<description>Quotation from Robert Kane, The Significance of Free Will (1998), pp. 214-215:
&quot;If we want to be independent sources of activity in the world, we must accept ambivalence, uncertainty, struggle, and conflict within ourselves - all of which are connected to the indeterminacy that is required for free will. The ambivalence, uncertainty, and risk are in turn related to competing images of the good that must inevitably confront those who would be ultimate creators of their own ends.&quot;

Professor Robert Kane teaches at the University of Texas at Austin and received his PhD from Yale in 1964.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quotation from Robert Kane, The Significance of Free Will (1998), pp. 214-215:<br />
&#8220;If we want to be independent sources of activity in the world, we must accept ambivalence, uncertainty, struggle, and conflict within ourselves &#8211; all of which are connected to the indeterminacy that is required for free will. The ambivalence, uncertainty, and risk are in turn related to competing images of the good that must inevitably confront those who would be ultimate creators of their own ends.&#8221;</p>
<p>Professor Robert Kane teaches at the University of Texas at Austin and received his PhD from Yale in 1964.</p>
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		<title>By: Albanius</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70430</link>
		<dc:creator>Albanius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 00:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70430</guid>
		<description>An excellent statement of the compatibilist position in 1966 by then future Nobelist, the great neurologist Roger Sperry:

Mind, Brain, and Humanist Values, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists September 1966:
http://people.uncw.edu/puente/sperry/sperrypapers/60s/125-1966.pdf
(This is a pdf of a photocopy.)  The essay evolved into Sperry&#039;s book Science and Moral Priority.

Sperry asked &quot;Is it possible ... in principle, to construct a complete objective explanatory model of brain function without including consciouness and mental phenomena in the causal sequence?&quot;

Sperry said that his &quot;mentalist&quot; position was then in a tiny minority, but per Sean it seems to have gained since then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent statement of the compatibilist position in 1966 by then future Nobelist, the great neurologist Roger Sperry:</p>
<p>Mind, Brain, and Humanist Values, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists September 1966:<br />
<a href="http://people.uncw.edu/puente/sperry/sperrypapers/60s/125-1966.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://people.uncw.edu/puente/sperry/sperrypapers/60s/125-1966.pdf</a><br />
(This is a pdf of a photocopy.)  The essay evolved into Sperry&#8217;s book Science and Moral Priority.</p>
<p>Sperry asked &#8220;Is it possible &#8230; in principle, to construct a complete objective explanatory model of brain function without including consciouness and mental phenomena in the causal sequence?&#8221;</p>
<p>Sperry said that his &#8220;mentalist&#8221; position was then in a tiny minority, but per Sean it seems to have gained since then.</p>
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		<title>By: Pandaemoni</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/#comment-70429</link>
		<dc:creator>Pandaemoni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 00:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-70429</guid>
		<description>@ Max Thomas (73):  When I say &quot;My robot butler made me a sandwich&quot; (or, less fancifully, &quot;my chess computer chose to move a pawn&quot;), I am not suggesting that either has free will.

While I believe in free will, we should take note that there are already machines that process information (with embedded feedback mechanisms), consider various alternatives, and then select a course of action (i.e. they &quot;make choices&quot;). Chess computers are an obvious example.  Humans engage in the speculation of the counterfactual position that we &quot;could have&quot; made different choices in the past, whatever our actual choices were.  So long as human choice selection algorithms were chaotic (i.e., incredibly sensitive to initial conditions) to explain the high degree of (seeming) variability in human decisions, I don&#039;t see how we can definitively state that the counterfactual is true.

The impression that we have free will in making choices, could simply be a byproduct of our remembering that we were considering different possible choices, much as a chess computer considers various possible moves, even though e actually had as little ability to defy our biological programming as that chess computer would have had to defy its program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Max Thomas (73):  When I say &#8220;My robot butler made me a sandwich&#8221; (or, less fancifully, &#8220;my chess computer chose to move a pawn&#8221;), I am not suggesting that either has free will.</p>
<p>While I believe in free will, we should take note that there are already machines that process information (with embedded feedback mechanisms), consider various alternatives, and then select a course of action (i.e. they &#8220;make choices&#8221;). Chess computers are an obvious example.  Humans engage in the speculation of the counterfactual position that we &#8220;could have&#8221; made different choices in the past, whatever our actual choices were.  So long as human choice selection algorithms were chaotic (i.e., incredibly sensitive to initial conditions) to explain the high degree of (seeming) variability in human decisions, I don&#8217;t see how we can definitively state that the counterfactual is true.</p>
<p>The impression that we have free will in making choices, could simply be a byproduct of our remembering that we were considering different possible choices, much as a chess computer considers various possible moves, even though e actually had as little ability to defy our biological programming as that chess computer would have had to defy its program.</p>
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