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	<title>Comments on: Free Will Is as Real as Baseball</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: MMA Houston</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-169484</link>
		<dc:creator>MMA Houston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-169484</guid>
		<description>Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon, treated species as artificial categories and living forms as malleable-even suggesting the possibility of common descent. Though he was in opposition to evolution, Buffon is a key estimate the history of evolutionary thought; his work influenced the evolutionary theories of both Lamarck and Darwin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon, treated species as artificial categories and living forms as malleable-even suggesting the possibility of common descent. Though he was in opposition to evolution, Buffon is a key estimate the history of evolutionary thought; his work influenced the evolutionary theories of both Lamarck and Darwin.</p>
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		<title>By: melior</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-168932</link>
		<dc:creator>melior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 04:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-168932</guid>
		<description>@70: Some guy punched me really hard in the face, then tried to convince me I shouldn&#039;t blame him because I agree that free will is like baseball in the sense Sean describes. 

I had to bend over and listen closely to hear him make his argument though, since he was doubled up on the ground as a result of my knee striking him so hard in the groin in reaction to his punch. From what I could make out through his whimpering it sounded like some sort of silly attempted &lt;i&gt;reductio ad absurdum&lt;/i&gt; of a straw man version of compatibilism couched as a joke that wasn&#039;t even amusing the first twelve times I heard it, so I lost interest pretty quickly. I put some ice on my black eye and it&#039;s fine now though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@70: Some guy punched me really hard in the face, then tried to convince me I shouldn&#8217;t blame him because I agree that free will is like baseball in the sense Sean describes. </p>
<p>I had to bend over and listen closely to hear him make his argument though, since he was doubled up on the ground as a result of my knee striking him so hard in the groin in reaction to his punch. From what I could make out through his whimpering it sounded like some sort of silly attempted <i>reductio ad absurdum</i> of a straw man version of compatibilism couched as a joke that wasn&#8217;t even amusing the first twelve times I heard it, so I lost interest pretty quickly. I put some ice on my black eye and it&#8217;s fine now though.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt B.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-168595</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-168595</guid>
		<description>I like to make an analogy with signals. A signal can be random, regular, or , between those two, it can carry a message.

Absolute lack of free will would make us automatons, like a regular signal going through the same bleeps and blorps (though the analogy is that sentient beings automatically follow laws of physics, not that they repeat their actions).

Absolute free will would mean making decisions without basis on sensory input, it would be a random signal. However, I believe we do act randomly when newly born, and that that&#039;s how we learn how to act with purpose. You cannot be a moral actor with this kind of free will (if it were permanent).

Meaningful free will is like a signal with a message. Unlike the other two kinds of messages, this kind is worth listening to. We choose our actions based on sensory input (including the influences of past perceptions), so it&#039;s not random, but it&#039;s not entirely regular either, if such free will exists. Oddly, this concept of morality seems to require a striving toward regularity, trying to become an automaton. (There may be an extra analogy possible here, involving zipping a file. To be moral, you must be as predictable as possible, or the most zippable.)

Maybe we think we have free will because we never get all the way from randomness to regularity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like to make an analogy with signals. A signal can be random, regular, or , between those two, it can carry a message.</p>
<p>Absolute lack of free will would make us automatons, like a regular signal going through the same bleeps and blorps (though the analogy is that sentient beings automatically follow laws of physics, not that they repeat their actions).</p>
<p>Absolute free will would mean making decisions without basis on sensory input, it would be a random signal. However, I believe we do act randomly when newly born, and that that&#8217;s how we learn how to act with purpose. You cannot be a moral actor with this kind of free will (if it were permanent).</p>
<p>Meaningful free will is like a signal with a message. Unlike the other two kinds of messages, this kind is worth listening to. We choose our actions based on sensory input (including the influences of past perceptions), so it&#8217;s not random, but it&#8217;s not entirely regular either, if such free will exists. Oddly, this concept of morality seems to require a striving toward regularity, trying to become an automaton. (There may be an extra analogy possible here, involving zipping a file. To be moral, you must be as predictable as possible, or the most zippable.)</p>
<p>Maybe we think we have free will because we never get all the way from randomness to regularity.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Habegger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-168498</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Habegger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-168498</guid>
		<description>That was a bit of cold blooded analysis by me. It does not represent the real feelings I attach to life. I think William Blake might have been the one that said all life is holy. I agree with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was a bit of cold blooded analysis by me. It does not represent the real feelings I attach to life. I think William Blake might have been the one that said all life is holy. I agree with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Habegger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-168466</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Habegger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 06:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-168466</guid>
		<description>Interesting comments and references offered here. I think it might be worthwhile reading Doyle&#039;s book that was just listed if I had more hours in the day. Going back to the reference : http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&amp;context=poliscifacpub&amp;sei-redir=1#search=%22alford%20twin%20study%22

...it says in it that identical twins as they are growing up often try to act as independently from each other as possible in order to be recognized by first their parents, and then their other siblings, and then their friends and acquaintances. It sounds like they artificially create a slight variation on how they really see themselves so they can each have their own identity.

Later when they become adults and get some spatial separation they naturally give up that self induced differentiating. The  similarity in lifestyle, professions  and political views between them often become profound at that time even if there is not much communication between them.  If you think about this they really are behaving conceptually exactly like quarks in a nucleon. That is, there is asymptotic freedom when the twins are in close proximity. This would be the high energy state when the quarks are close together. In the low energy condition when there is almost complete spatial separation their actions then become highly correlated and similar.

It might seem like this is stretching analogy to the point of ridiculousness. I just happen to think that these patterns keep showing up at larger and larger scales because quantum interactions in biological systems are perhaps what makes the difference between inanimate (or animated objects) and what we define as life.     What we define as life is just the arbitrary line we have come with for large objects that are defined largely by quantum principles and indeterminism rather than classical behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comments and references offered here. I think it might be worthwhile reading Doyle&#8217;s book that was just listed if I had more hours in the day. Going back to the reference : <a href="http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&#038;context=poliscifacpub&#038;sei-redir=1#search=%22alford%20twin%20study%22" rel="nofollow">http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&#038;context=poliscifacpub&#038;sei-redir=1#search=%22alford%20twin%20study%22</a></p>
<p>&#8230;it says in it that identical twins as they are growing up often try to act as independently from each other as possible in order to be recognized by first their parents, and then their other siblings, and then their friends and acquaintances. It sounds like they artificially create a slight variation on how they really see themselves so they can each have their own identity.</p>
<p>Later when they become adults and get some spatial separation they naturally give up that self induced differentiating. The  similarity in lifestyle, professions  and political views between them often become profound at that time even if there is not much communication between them.  If you think about this they really are behaving conceptually exactly like quarks in a nucleon. That is, there is asymptotic freedom when the twins are in close proximity. This would be the high energy state when the quarks are close together. In the low energy condition when there is almost complete spatial separation their actions then become highly correlated and similar.</p>
<p>It might seem like this is stretching analogy to the point of ridiculousness. I just happen to think that these patterns keep showing up at larger and larger scales because quantum interactions in biological systems are perhaps what makes the difference between inanimate (or animated objects) and what we define as life.     What we define as life is just the arbitrary line we have come with for large objects that are defined largely by quantum principles and indeterminism rather than classical behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: psmith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-168422</link>
		<dc:creator>psmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-168422</guid>
		<description>See this book
Free Will: The Scandal in Philosophy
for a complete, detailed and thoughtful treatment of the subject
http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See this book<br />
Free Will: The Scandal in Philosophy<br />
for a complete, detailed and thoughtful treatment of the subject<br />
<a href="http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/" rel="nofollow">http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Weekly Meanderings &#124; Jesus Creed</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-168078</link>
		<dc:creator>Weekly Meanderings &#124; Jesus Creed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2011 15:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-168078</guid>
		<description>[...] fewer strings attached and that do not require slavish conformity to unscientific beliefs.&#8221;6. Sean Carroll on free will and cosmic variance. &#8220;We talk about the world using different levels of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] fewer strings attached and that do not require slavish conformity to unscientific beliefs.&#8221;6. Sean Carroll on free will and cosmic variance. &#8220;We talk about the world using different levels of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Loe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167760</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Loe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2011 05:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167760</guid>
		<description>Quotation from Robert Kane, The Significance of Free Will (1998), pp. 214-215:
&quot;If we want to be independent sources of activity in the world, we must accept ambivalence, uncertainty, struggle, and conflict within ourselves - all of which are connected to the indeterminacy that is required for free will. The ambivalence, uncertainty, and risk are in turn related to competing images of the good that must inevitably confront those who would be ultimate creators of their own ends.&quot;

Professor Robert Kane teaches at the University of Texas at Austin and received his PhD from Yale in 1964.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quotation from Robert Kane, The Significance of Free Will (1998), pp. 214-215:<br />
&#8220;If we want to be independent sources of activity in the world, we must accept ambivalence, uncertainty, struggle, and conflict within ourselves &#8211; all of which are connected to the indeterminacy that is required for free will. The ambivalence, uncertainty, and risk are in turn related to competing images of the good that must inevitably confront those who would be ultimate creators of their own ends.&#8221;</p>
<p>Professor Robert Kane teaches at the University of Texas at Austin and received his PhD from Yale in 1964.</p>
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		<title>By: Albanius</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167416</link>
		<dc:creator>Albanius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 00:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167416</guid>
		<description>An excellent statement of the compatibilist position in 1966 by then future Nobelist, the great neurologist Roger Sperry:

Mind, Brain, and Humanist Values, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists September 1966:
http://people.uncw.edu/puente/sperry/sperrypapers/60s/125-1966.pdf
(This is a pdf of a photocopy.)  The essay evolved into Sperry&#039;s book Science and Moral Priority.

Sperry asked &quot;Is it possible ... in principle, to construct a complete objective explanatory model of brain function without including consciouness and mental phenomena in the causal sequence?&quot;

Sperry said that his &quot;mentalist&quot; position was then in a tiny minority, but per Sean it seems to have gained since then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent statement of the compatibilist position in 1966 by then future Nobelist, the great neurologist Roger Sperry:</p>
<p>Mind, Brain, and Humanist Values, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists September 1966:<br />
<a href="http://people.uncw.edu/puente/sperry/sperrypapers/60s/125-1966.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://people.uncw.edu/puente/sperry/sperrypapers/60s/125-1966.pdf</a><br />
(This is a pdf of a photocopy.)  The essay evolved into Sperry&#8217;s book Science and Moral Priority.</p>
<p>Sperry asked &#8220;Is it possible &#8230; in principle, to construct a complete objective explanatory model of brain function without including consciouness and mental phenomena in the causal sequence?&#8221;</p>
<p>Sperry said that his &#8220;mentalist&#8221; position was then in a tiny minority, but per Sean it seems to have gained since then.</p>
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		<title>By: Pandaemoni</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167413</link>
		<dc:creator>Pandaemoni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 00:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167413</guid>
		<description>@ Max Thomas (73):  When I say &quot;My robot butler made me a sandwich&quot; (or, less fancifully, &quot;my chess computer chose to move a pawn&quot;), I am not suggesting that either has free will.

While I believe in free will, we should take note that there are already machines that process information (with embedded feedback mechanisms), consider various alternatives, and then select a course of action (i.e. they &quot;make choices&quot;). Chess computers are an obvious example.  Humans engage in the speculation of the counterfactual position that we &quot;could have&quot; made different choices in the past, whatever our actual choices were.  So long as human choice selection algorithms were chaotic (i.e., incredibly sensitive to initial conditions) to explain the high degree of (seeming) variability in human decisions, I don&#039;t see how we can definitively state that the counterfactual is true.  

The impression that we have free will in making choices, could simply be a byproduct of our remembering that we were considering different possible choices, much as a chess computer considers various possible moves, even though e actually had as little ability to defy our biological programming as that chess computer would have had to defy its program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Max Thomas (73):  When I say &#8220;My robot butler made me a sandwich&#8221; (or, less fancifully, &#8220;my chess computer chose to move a pawn&#8221;), I am not suggesting that either has free will.</p>
<p>While I believe in free will, we should take note that there are already machines that process information (with embedded feedback mechanisms), consider various alternatives, and then select a course of action (i.e. they &#8220;make choices&#8221;). Chess computers are an obvious example.  Humans engage in the speculation of the counterfactual position that we &#8220;could have&#8221; made different choices in the past, whatever our actual choices were.  So long as human choice selection algorithms were chaotic (i.e., incredibly sensitive to initial conditions) to explain the high degree of (seeming) variability in human decisions, I don&#8217;t see how we can definitively state that the counterfactual is true.  </p>
<p>The impression that we have free will in making choices, could simply be a byproduct of our remembering that we were considering different possible choices, much as a chess computer considers various possible moves, even though e actually had as little ability to defy our biological programming as that chess computer would have had to defy its program.</p>
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		<title>By: bizarre</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167373</link>
		<dc:creator>bizarre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 13:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167373</guid>
		<description>Apperently the spam filters find the words &quot;free content&quot; to be spam, wild,

Noise is free too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apperently the spam filters find the words &#8220;free content&#8221; to be spam, wild,</p>
<p>Noise is free too.</p>
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		<title>By: Free will</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167370</link>
		<dc:creator>Free will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 13:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167370</guid>
		<description>I would like to point out that under a model of determinism, there is no such things  as willing slave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to point out that under a model of determinism, there is no such things  as willing slave</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Habegger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167337</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Habegger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 02:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167337</guid>
		<description>Justin, thanks for the references. I read them all and was really impressed with the first one you mentioned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin, thanks for the references. I read them all and was really impressed with the first one you mentioned.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Loe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167335</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Loe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 00:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167335</guid>
		<description>@Habegger: For one take on the heritability of political beliefs, see Alford&#039;s 2005 twin study: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&amp;context=poliscifacpub&amp;sei-redir=1#search=%22alford%20twin%20study%22

Summary from Sciencedaily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080206091437.htm
&quot;On the issue of property taxes, for example, an astounding four-fifths of identical twins shared the same opinion, while only two-thirds of fraternal twins agreed.&quot;

One of the better twin studies was by Bouchard, of twins raised apart, and he found: &quot;When journalists first began interviewing Bouchard&#039;s twins-raised-apart, they focused on the spectacularly similar pairs, like the Springer-Lewis twins. But those twins turned out to be outliers in the Minnesota study..... On average, identical twins raised separately are about 50 percent similar -- and that defeats the widespread belief that identical twins are carbon copies.&quot; source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/twins/twins2.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Habegger: For one take on the heritability of political beliefs, see Alford&#8217;s 2005 twin study: <a href="http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&#038;context=poliscifacpub&#038;sei-redir=1#search=%22alford%20twin%20study%22" rel="nofollow">http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&#038;context=poliscifacpub&#038;sei-redir=1#search=%22alford%20twin%20study%22</a></p>
<p>Summary from Sciencedaily:<br />
<a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080206091437.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080206091437.htm</a><br />
&#8220;On the issue of property taxes, for example, an astounding four-fifths of identical twins shared the same opinion, while only two-thirds of fraternal twins agreed.&#8221;</p>
<p>One of the better twin studies was by Bouchard, of twins raised apart, and he found: &#8220;When journalists first began interviewing Bouchard&#8217;s twins-raised-apart, they focused on the spectacularly similar pairs, like the Springer-Lewis twins. But those twins turned out to be outliers in the Minnesota study&#8230;.. On average, identical twins raised separately are about 50 percent similar &#8212; and that defeats the widespread belief that identical twins are carbon copies.&#8221; source: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/twins/twins2.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/twins/twins2.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Eric Habegger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167330</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Habegger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 23:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167330</guid>
		<description>It seems this debate is moving towards an unofficial conclusion that there may actually be an element of free will in everyone. If that is the case, and I&#039;m not saying that is the unanimous  consensus, then the the next question would be how  much are our actions predetermined by everything that has molded each of us up this point, and how much are our actions determined by chance/free will, or however you define it. I&#039;d suggest looking at the case of identical twins in various environments to make a scientific analysis of it.

 My superficial past reading of how identical twins behave would lead me to believe that there is a much smaller proportion of free will in all of us than we are led to think.  Of course, the identical twin analysis adds an interpretational problem. Perhaps we should treat them as one quantum 
mechanical object who change TOGETHER subject to a higher level of free will than their individual differences would indicate. That is, perhaps their behavior is still dictated by a high level of chance but whatever that behavior is there is then a strong correlation between the action of the two twins. My understanding is that this would agree with quantum principles on much smaller scales.  It is confusing how one should interpret this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems this debate is moving towards an unofficial conclusion that there may actually be an element of free will in everyone. If that is the case, and I&#8217;m not saying that is the unanimous  consensus, then the the next question would be how  much are our actions predetermined by everything that has molded each of us up this point, and how much are our actions determined by chance/free will, or however you define it. I&#8217;d suggest looking at the case of identical twins in various environments to make a scientific analysis of it.</p>
<p> My superficial past reading of how identical twins behave would lead me to believe that there is a much smaller proportion of free will in all of us than we are led to think.  Of course, the identical twin analysis adds an interpretational problem. Perhaps we should treat them as one quantum<br />
mechanical object who change TOGETHER subject to a higher level of free will than their individual differences would indicate. That is, perhaps their behavior is still dictated by a high level of chance but whatever that behavior is there is then a strong correlation between the action of the two twins. My understanding is that this would agree with quantum principles on much smaller scales.  It is confusing how one should interpret this.</p>
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		<title>By: KH</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167328</link>
		<dc:creator>KH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 21:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167328</guid>
		<description>Suppose we lived on a closed timelike curve.  All the microscopic particle worldlines and field values are appropriately periodic in time, so everything is consistent.  What would be our perception?  Would we &quot;remember&quot; the future by recalling the past cycle of time?  Would we feel free will in the same way, or would the illusion be spoiled?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suppose we lived on a closed timelike curve.  All the microscopic particle worldlines and field values are appropriately periodic in time, so everything is consistent.  What would be our perception?  Would we &#8220;remember&#8221; the future by recalling the past cycle of time?  Would we feel free will in the same way, or would the illusion be spoiled?</p>
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		<title>By: Zenphamy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167327</link>
		<dc:creator>Zenphamy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 21:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167327</guid>
		<description>I wish I had found this blog a little earlier.  Can&#039;t change that regardless of free will, but the consequence is that I&#039;ll be doing a little more exploration to see what else is out there.  Is that pre-deterministic, or was it chance, or was it the result of a continually variable being, (influenced by a set of past exposures and genetic make-up and whatever and whatever as well as free will).  
I maintain that the belief that our understanding of physics and laws determined from our observations and analysis still has vast gaps in it based on the limited range of our present perceptual abilities, as well as our understanding of a brain and the mind that develops within, or with it.  Much of this type of discussion still depends on definitions, which in spite of all efforts, still vary individually.  It&#039;s one of the most dramatic (and fun and sometimes scary) aspects of what it is to &#039;be.&#039;  
But yes, free will is.  My free will is, at 64, to keep looking for, keep observing all, keep learning more, keep imagining more and keep foremost in my &#039;mind&#039;, which seems to reside in my brain as the receptor and manipulator and analyzer of all of my senses, that there will always be more to understand.
I see little to be gained by including a vague and amorphous concept of a God in this discussion nor do I see any advantage in a vain hope of understanding or defining the insanity, drives, or causal relationships that become a serial killer.  At the same time, trying to learn how society can detect them and try to minimize their impact on the rest of us can&#039;t be other than worthwhile.  But I seriously question any level of &#039;understanding&#039; that will permit prevention of their development.
The awesome variabilities of being and evolution will always provide some things or some actions that we don&#039;t understand and can&#039;t control and therefore fear.  The best we can hope for is to gain enough understanding, within the limits of our perceptial abilities, to enable us to better control their impacts.  That, I think, also applies to everything else that we think about.  
There are way too many attempts to compress our understandings of anything into elegant and simple formulae and laws and rules, based on beliefs and concepts that we can stop the continual evolution of and variable changes in anything long enough to make that determination.
Rather, for myself, it&#039;s much more interesting to explore and evolve, with the thought that there will always be more, because everything will evolve and change beyond my present understanding.
Great article, by the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I had found this blog a little earlier.  Can&#8217;t change that regardless of free will, but the consequence is that I&#8217;ll be doing a little more exploration to see what else is out there.  Is that pre-deterministic, or was it chance, or was it the result of a continually variable being, (influenced by a set of past exposures and genetic make-up and whatever and whatever as well as free will).<br />
I maintain that the belief that our understanding of physics and laws determined from our observations and analysis still has vast gaps in it based on the limited range of our present perceptual abilities, as well as our understanding of a brain and the mind that develops within, or with it.  Much of this type of discussion still depends on definitions, which in spite of all efforts, still vary individually.  It&#8217;s one of the most dramatic (and fun and sometimes scary) aspects of what it is to &#8216;be.&#8217;<br />
But yes, free will is.  My free will is, at 64, to keep looking for, keep observing all, keep learning more, keep imagining more and keep foremost in my &#8216;mind&#8217;, which seems to reside in my brain as the receptor and manipulator and analyzer of all of my senses, that there will always be more to understand.<br />
I see little to be gained by including a vague and amorphous concept of a God in this discussion nor do I see any advantage in a vain hope of understanding or defining the insanity, drives, or causal relationships that become a serial killer.  At the same time, trying to learn how society can detect them and try to minimize their impact on the rest of us can&#8217;t be other than worthwhile.  But I seriously question any level of &#8216;understanding&#8217; that will permit prevention of their development.<br />
The awesome variabilities of being and evolution will always provide some things or some actions that we don&#8217;t understand and can&#8217;t control and therefore fear.  The best we can hope for is to gain enough understanding, within the limits of our perceptial abilities, to enable us to better control their impacts.  That, I think, also applies to everything else that we think about.<br />
There are way too many attempts to compress our understandings of anything into elegant and simple formulae and laws and rules, based on beliefs and concepts that we can stop the continual evolution of and variable changes in anything long enough to make that determination.<br />
Rather, for myself, it&#8217;s much more interesting to explore and evolve, with the thought that there will always be more, because everything will evolve and change beyond my present understanding.<br />
Great article, by the way.</p>
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		<title>By: Que sera sera</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167320</link>
		<dc:creator>Que sera sera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167320</guid>
		<description>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc</a></p>
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		<title>By: Just a point</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167319</link>
		<dc:creator>Just a point</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167319</guid>
		<description>It is absolutely ludicrous that anyone can &quot;understand consequences&quot;.  That is the whole point of the result of Bell&#039;s inequality.  So there is absolutely no certain outcome to any event until after the observation of the consequence occurs.  
The flaw in some of your statements is that you are still warped by some notion of universal justice, which simply can not be supported based on the strengh of human logic.  Human logic is invaribly flawed when put to paper, and contradictions arise and propogate through the system and are exploited by people everyday (go talk to some tax lawyers if you don&#039;t believe me).  
So the only understanding one has to have is que sera sera, which is entirely a probabilistic situation and has nothing to do with fate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is absolutely ludicrous that anyone can &#8220;understand consequences&#8221;.  That is the whole point of the result of Bell&#8217;s inequality.  So there is absolutely no certain outcome to any event until after the observation of the consequence occurs.<br />
The flaw in some of your statements is that you are still warped by some notion of universal justice, which simply can not be supported based on the strengh of human logic.  Human logic is invaribly flawed when put to paper, and contradictions arise and propogate through the system and are exploited by people everyday (go talk to some tax lawyers if you don&#8217;t believe me).<br />
So the only understanding one has to have is que sera sera, which is entirely a probabilistic situation and has nothing to do with fate.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Thomas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/07/13/free-will-is-as-real-as-baseball/comment-page-1/#comment-167318</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/?p=7113#comment-167318</guid>
		<description>Every claim that “I did something,” or that “you do something,” presupposes free will lest those claims make no sense.  When I say, “I made a sandwich,” I claim that I am the cause of the sandwich and that I alone am the cause of that sandwich.  Free will is when the agent is the sole cause of something, in the sense that without that agent’s acting, the something would not have happened.  Most human beings are causal agents such that they choose something without there being any prior cause compelling them to do it.

Moral responsibility comes into play when I choose to do good over evil, or evil over good, and although I am tempted to choose evil, nothing forces me to do so.  That is, I cannot be forced to choose evil because such is a contradiction between “choice” and “being forced.”

If I was compelled to kill her, then I did not actually commit the killing because the true cause is whatever compelled my body to perform in that way.  I am compelled by my body to recover from a stumble because that recovery is nothing I choose to do.  But, if I murder her, then I am the sole cause of her death, such that without my acting, she would not have died.

Thus, the existence is free will is not proved so much as it is presupposed in nearly everything we do and think.  Of course, there can be no scientific (empirical) proof of free will because science necessarily and rightly presupposes that nothing happens without a cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every claim that “I did something,” or that “you do something,” presupposes free will lest those claims make no sense.  When I say, “I made a sandwich,” I claim that I am the cause of the sandwich and that I alone am the cause of that sandwich.  Free will is when the agent is the sole cause of something, in the sense that without that agent’s acting, the something would not have happened.  Most human beings are causal agents such that they choose something without there being any prior cause compelling them to do it.</p>
<p>Moral responsibility comes into play when I choose to do good over evil, or evil over good, and although I am tempted to choose evil, nothing forces me to do so.  That is, I cannot be forced to choose evil because such is a contradiction between “choice” and “being forced.”</p>
<p>If I was compelled to kill her, then I did not actually commit the killing because the true cause is whatever compelled my body to perform in that way.  I am compelled by my body to recover from a stumble because that recovery is nothing I choose to do.  But, if I murder her, then I am the sole cause of her death, such that without my acting, she would not have died.</p>
<p>Thus, the existence is free will is not proved so much as it is presupposed in nearly everything we do and think.  Of course, there can be no scientific (empirical) proof of free will because science necessarily and rightly presupposes that nothing happens without a cause.</p>
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